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St. John's CPL


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I think the CPL would in there best interests establish there current product. And if they were going to move to 10 teams look at places in Quebeac or Regina. Moncton and St. J would be risky for a start up franchise. If one were to fail it would be tough for the league.

There's been some talk the CSA was hoping to eventually have a relegation system of D2 and D3. And that Moncton and St. John's would be options in 2-3 years after start up

 

 

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2 hours ago, top cheese said:

There's been some talk the CSA was hoping to eventually have a relegation system of D2 and D3. And that Moncton and St. John's would be options in 2-3 years after start up

If they do go to a relegation system, then what do you do: not try to promote to D1 because. you are in a city that is not "right" for a CPL franchise at the top level? I don't think so. 

We have to stop thinking that D2 is for the lesser cities, if pro/releg is the goal, since as soon as someone does things right and another screws up, you can have your biggest urban team in D2 and a modest city's club in D1.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If they do go to a relegation system, then what do you do: not try to promote to D1 because. you are in a city that is not "right" for a CPL franchise at the top level? I don't think so. 

We have to stop thinking that D2 is for the lesser cities, if pro/releg is the goal, since as soon as someone does things right and another screws up, you can have your biggest urban team in D2 and a modest city's club in D1.

I think once we reach the point where pro/rel is viable, it will no longer matter so much if a team or five are in "secondary" markets.  

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If the CSA and the CPL have the balls to say ok, we are going to risk seeing founding clubs in second tier because we believe in this system, then it will be amazing for our game. We will have fights at the bottom and top of the league until the last fixture, and CPL-1 fans will be looking at CPL-2 teams, and vice versa. 

IMO the CSA has to simply impose this, as the natural tendency of clubs is to want financial security as part of a trust and be ensured they cannot relegate. And in any league, the founding teams would naturally impose the view that, being the granddaddies, they should be able to sit rocking in the best spots on the front porch, happily forever. 

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On 8/2/2018 at 11:53 AM, top cheese said:

All the professional sports teams in St. john's have had to subsidize travel for visiting teams because the cost of travel to and from the province is accessible high. That has usually resulted in a higher then league normal ticket price for NL teams. Halifax wont have that issue because airline costs into the city are lower.

The other thing to consider is that NL has a population of 45000 and decreasing substantially every year. The St. John's metro area has around 250,000 people which is considerably lower then the other franchises in CPL. The province is almost bankrupt, the cost of living is through the roof, and people don't have disposable income. To spend regularly on a projected 20-30 dollar per game ticket. Plus cooperate sponsorship opportunities would be limited based on two other sports teams and limited amounts of available corporate dollars because of the current economic climate.

The other thing to consider as well is that NL sports fans are fickle. Traditionally most teams enter with a lot of fan support but it tails off after a couple of years. There also demand to see locals play and prefer to cheer for there own. Every AHL team that was here people complained that there was no NLders on the team ( to which NHL teams Laughed). There's always people claiming there amateur teams are more entertaining the pro ( b/c they want to see fights). Take last years brier for instance, it was heavily supported bc of the Gushue rink, take them out and there's an empty rink. No doubt there will be cries again for local content on a CPL team but the reality is NL soccer has and never will produce anyone capable of playing professionally. Will NFLDers support a non NL team - probably not over the long run.

There is a stadium already in place that likely needs some significant work to it to meet the standards of the league.

I have my doubts if this would be a good investment for the league especially so early in its development.

Most of this post is a classic case of Newfoundland inferiority complex.

I'll put a more optimistic spin on it:

First of all, I object to the statement that Newfoundland will never produce a professional soccer player. Just days ago we saw two Newfoundlanders play for the Atlantic select team that was organized by HFX wanderers. For all we know, you'll be proven wrong as soon as next year. Have a little belief!

We're talking CPL here....not EPL.

Secondly, the baby leafs were a massive success in St. John's - so I don't exactly buy this theory that Newfoundlanders won't get behind a team without Newfoundlanders on it. Yes I am sure Carl English put a few more butts in the seats for Edge games, but I think you are making way too much of this. 

Just a few Newfoundlanders on the team would be enough to satisfy this "local" craving (let's call it), and more local players would be produced in the future with the CPL team around, not less.

Third, economic situations always change. Besides, there will always be people willing to spend money on entertainment, no matter what the economic outlook is.

Fourth, people in Newfoundland always complain about how boring it is and how there is nothing to so, so this team would be another option. Furthermore, unlike the ECHL and the basketball league, the CPL will be an actual national league. This is a huge advantage compared to the other two in my opinion. Optics matter, and the CPL I think will be the most "major" league of the 3. 

Anyways, I wanted to give a more postive prognosis of how a St. John's CPL team may fare. Success isn't guaranteed of course, but I think it's only fair to balance out such a gloomy outlook as this one.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If the CSA and the CPL have the balls to say ok, we are going to risk seeing founding clubs in second tier because we believe in this system, then it will be amazing for our game. We will have fights at the bottom and top of the league until the last fixture, and CPL-1 fans will be looking at CPL-2 teams, and vice versa. 

IMO the CSA has to simply impose this, as the natural tendency of clubs is to want financial security as part of a trust and be ensured they cannot relegate. And in any league, the founding teams would naturally impose the view that, being the granddaddies, they should be able to sit rocking in the best spots on the front porch, happily forever. 

To have a decent extra tier you would need 10 teams in each??  More??  I know many really want pro/reg but if we can get 10-15 good solid pro teams that have good stadiums that can draw 5000-10000 fans we'll be lucky.  Csa can/should include this option now (you'll never be able to do it 10 years down the road), but it'll be a long time before the founding teams need to worry about getting demoted.  

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5 hours ago, Sébastien said:

It's actually a 10,000 seat stadium, easily expandable to about 20,000. However, improvements would be needed in terms of facilities for a professional team to call it home.

Being from the region, there is nothing I would love more than for Moncton to join the CPL. However, considering the low population and the non-existence of a soccer culture, I don't see it happening in the short or medium term.

If, after a decade, the league shows that it is stable, expanding and someone with deep pockets (Irvings, looking at you!) decides to give it a shot, maybe. But even then, I find it quite unlikely.

Even for the CFL, they had huge participation for the first game there, and it kept going lower and lower every subsequent time. The Moncton area draws well for one-off events where people from outside the city will make the drive for it, but I don't think it would be sustainable for 14+ matches per year.

 

***EDIT***

And to make it more relevant to the thread, conditional on an economic rebound in Newfoundland and Labrador, I would expect St. John's to get in before Moncton does.

re: CFL games...

The first one sold out really quick. The second one had been reported as sold out when it wasn't and by the time they got that sorted out the momentum etc. was gone, so they had pretty much the same attendance. However, in the third instalment which differed from the first two in that it was the Hamilton Tiger-cats who controlled it and not a league initiative; they made less seats available (15,000 range) and they budgeted a lot less on marketing. They ended up selling most of those seats, so they budgeted pretty much the exact amount that they needed. The idea that there was less and less interest which I've heard before, I personally don't buy into. 

I do think that a team in Moncton, billed as a New Brunswick team (province-wide) would be a strong franchise. Possibly the Saskatchewan Roughriders of the CPL. There are enough potential fans in that region to go after marketingwise. Saint John, NB also has a decent stadium with seating capacity of 5,000. I believe it's undergone some renovations within the last few years as well.

All that to say...uhm nothing to do with St. John's. Sorry to go off topic, just wanted to clarify a few things.

I mean...all of those options could strengthen any maritime and atlantic rivalries and group of clubs in the area.

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On 8/3/2018 at 7:16 PM, Bison44 said:

To have a decent extra tier you would need 10 teams in each??  More??  

I would be happy with 24 teams divided into 8-team leagues of Div 1, Div 2 East, and Div 2 West. Each could play a 28-game schedule. Bottom 2 Div 1 teams are relegated and the top team in each Div 2 league. 

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3 hours ago, Initial B said:

I would be happy with 24 teams divided into 8-team leagues of Div 1, Div 2 East, and Div 2 West. Each could play a 28-game schedule. Bottom 2 Div 1 teams are relegated and the top team in each Div 2 league. 

Not the bottom east and bottom west? Otherwise the lower divisions will get unbalanced. 

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On 8/9/2018 at 4:21 PM, top cheese said:

I think that's the vision.....I don't know if relegation works in NA

Most of the soccer-watching friends I know avoid MLS specifically because there is no Pro / Rel. 

I think that the soccer fans crowding into the Duke every weekend, and piling into cars from Grand Bank to watch Challenge Cup games at KGV, would get behind promotion and relegation. 

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On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:38 PM, Obinna said:

Most of this post is a classic case of Newfoundland inferiority complex.

I'll put a more optimistic spin on it:

First of all, I object to the statement that Newfoundland will never produce a professional soccer player. Just days ago we saw two Newfoundlanders play for the Atlantic select team that was organized by HFX wanderers. For all we know, you'll be proven wrong as soon as next year. Have a little belief!

We're talking CPL here....not EPL.

Secondly, the baby leafs were a massive success in St. John's - so I don't exactly buy this theory that Newfoundlanders won't get behind a team without Newfoundlanders on it. Yes I am sure Carl English put a few more butts in the seats for Edge games, but I think you are making way too much of this. 

Just a few Newfoundlanders on the team would be enough to satisfy this "local" craving (let's call it), and more local players would be produced in the future with the CPL team around, not less.

Third, economic situations always change. Besides, there will always be people willing to spend money on entertainment, no matter what the economic outlook is.

Fourth, people in Newfoundland always complain about how boring it is and how there is nothing to so, so this team would be another option. Furthermore, unlike the ECHL and the basketball league, the CPL will be an actual national league. This is a huge advantage compared to the other two in my opinion. Optics matter, and the CPL I think will be the most "major" league of the 3. 

Anyways, I wanted to give a more postive prognosis of how a St. John's CPL team may fare. Success isn't guaranteed of course, but I think it's only fair to balance out such a gloomy outlook as this one.

 

 

 

the Atlantic select team might have a player or two invited to camp. It was done to run an event in the new facility Halifax has. Great your talking CPL but not EPL But look at the Ottawa Fury Roster......that's what your likely going to see in the CPL. A lot of USL, NASL, lower tier European Canadians, NCAA graduates, and MLS Academy graduates. 

Sorry the level of play in NL is not going to produce a pro player. Any team sport where a NLder "makes it" there out of the province at 14. NL cant put a competitive team in CIS sure

The baby leafs where a success for the few years but intrest tailed off. The Fog Devils never worked. And the Ice Caps where successful until it wasn't the cool thing to do in town. Im not thinking to far into it. 

Nlds economic circumstance is not changing 

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:45 AM, Copes said:

Most of the soccer-watching friends I know avoid MLS specifically because there is no Pro / Rel. 

I think that the soccer fans crowding into the Duke every weekend, and piling into cars from Grand Bank to watch Challenge Cup games at KGV, would get behind promotion and relegation. 

MLS is like watching 2nd division in England with one or two over the hill stars. 

It would be st. lawerance crowding into their cars...and that is decreasing every year b/c the population is dwindling on the BP. Grand Bank hasn't had a team since the 80's id say. 

The other thing is that NL support there own. This is the same crowd that thinks beer league senior hockey is greater then the ahl. theres no NLDers capable of playing pro soccer. 

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9 hours ago, top cheese said:

the Atlantic select team might have a player or two invited to camp. It was done to run an event in the new facility Halifax has. Great your talking CPL but not EPL But look at the Ottawa Fury Roster......that's what your likely going to see in the CPL. A lot of USL, NASL, lower tier European Canadians, NCAA graduates, and MLS Academy graduates. 

Sorry the level of play in NL is not going to produce a pro player. Any team sport where a NLder "makes it" there out of the province at 14. NL cant put a competitive team in CIS sure

The baby leafs where a success for the few years but intrest tailed off. The Fog Devils never worked. And the Ice Caps where successful until it wasn't the cool thing to do in town. Im not thinking to far into it. 

Nlds economic circumstance is not changing 

MUN having a shit soccer team is a poor argument for suggesting NL will never produce a pro player. Those two things having nothing to do with each other.

One reason MUN struggle in men's soccer because they are basically limited to 100% local players - meanwhile SMU and Dal and Cape Breton have half their squad comprised of players from Ontario or Alberta or from other countries even. I am not suggesting St. John's CPL will have a roster full of Newfoundlanders like the Seahawks - I am suggesting they could have one or two. 

Another reason MUN struggle is because, at least when I played, they brought players together much later than other teams, who start training in late August. MUN don't get their players together until after the final four challenge cup labour day weekend at the beginning of september. That head start of a few weeks makes a difference.

Anyways, I digress. I am not compelled by your agurment that a shit mun team means there will never be a newfoundland pro player.

That literally makes zero sense.

There are pro players from other sports, look at Carl English. Are you going to tell me the basketball scene in NL is so much better than the soccer scene? Lmao

And speaking of the Ottawa Fury, two newfoundlanders were in their youth system, aka on the path to being a pro.

All it takes is one man. That's all I am saying.

It will happen sooner or later, regardless of if CPL ever comes to newfoundland.

 

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15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Spoken like someone who hasn't watched much MLS recently.

I was at a game about a month ago....

Your not getting many EPL  La Liga   etc players coming from there......and the ones that do generally are inflated because of the lack of quality in MLS

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39 minutes ago, top cheese said:

Your not getting many EPL  La Liga   etc players coming from there......and the ones that do generally are inflated because of the lack of quality in MLS

So?

What does this have to do with your "one or two over the hill stars" comment?

To be clear, I said what I said because MLS has more young up and coming stars then ever before. The days of "one or two over the hill stars" is the exception now, not the norm.

Atlanta - Almiron (24), Martinez (25)

Orlando - Dwyer (28), Kljestan (32)

DC - Rooney (32), Acosta (23)

Philadelphia - Blake (24), Bedoya (32)

NYRB - Adams (19), Wright-Phillips (32)

NYCFC - Villa (36), Moralez (31)

New England - Agudelo (26), Fagundez (24)

Montreal - Piatti (33), Piette (24)

Toronto - Altidore (28), Giovinco (31)

Columbus - Higuain (34), Zardes (27)

Chicago - Schweinsteiger (34), Nikolic (28)

LAFC - Vela (29), Rossi (20)

Galaxy - Ibrahimovich (36), Dos Santos (29)

Portland - Valeri (31), Blanco (29)

Seattle - Loderio (29), Dempsey (35)

Vancouver - Davies (17), Kamara (33)

Minnesota - Quintero (31), Calvo (25)

KC - Beisler (31), Sanchez (29)

Colorado - Acosta (23), Price (28)

RSL - Plata (26), Rusnek (24)

Houston - Elis (23), Manotas (27)

Dallas - Barrios (26), Hedges (27)

 

There were a couple of players on the bubble, like Kamara and Kljestan, but I gave them to you because I was feeling generous :)

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If by saying 2nd division do you mean Championship? If so i would say that's about right. Its no dissrespect, all things being equal the Championship is a really good league. The only real argument would be that it might be overstating the mls a bit but i think since all teams arent created equal thats about right

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

So?

What does this have to do with your "one or two over the hill stars" comment?

To be clear, I said what I said because MLS has more young up and coming stars then ever before. The days of "one or two over the hill stars" is the exception now, not the norm.

Atlanta - Almiron (24), Martinez (25)

Orlando - Dwyer (28), Kljestan (32)

DC - Rooney (32), Acosta (23)

Philadelphia - Blake (24), Bedoya (32)

NYRB - Adams (19), Wright-Phillips (32)

NYCFC - Villa (36), Moralez (31)

New England - Agudelo (26), Fagundez (24)

Montreal - Piatti (33), Piette (24)

Toronto - Altidore (28), Giovinco (31)

Columbus - Higuain (34), Zardes (27)

Chicago - Schweinsteiger (34), Nikolic (28)

LAFC - Vela (29), Rossi (20)

Galaxy - Ibrahimovich (36), Dos Santos (29)

Portland - Valeri (31), Blanco (29)

Seattle - Loderio (29), Dempsey (35)

Vancouver - Davies (17), Kamara (33)

Minnesota - Quintero (31), Calvo (25)

KC - Beisler (31), Sanchez (29)

Colorado - Acosta (23), Price (28)

RSL - Plata (26), Rusnek (24)

Houston - Elis (23), Manotas (27)

Dallas - Barrios (26), Hedges (27)

 

There were a couple of players on the bubble, like Kamara and Kljestan, but I gave them to you because I was feeling generous :)

No offense but if your including a lot of these players in the "stars" categories ( i.e petite, hedges, wright-Phillips) its a sign your league is not strong. And if they were star players wouldn't you think they could establish themselves in top European leagues not 2nd and 3rd divisions. Dwyer with Orlando looks great in MLS and would be a decent player on a mid tier championship team in England.

Over this hill should also include those in the 30's ....decline is pretty rapid at 30

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5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

If by saying 2nd division do you mean Championship? If so i would say that's about right. Its no dissrespect, all things being equal the Championship is a really good league. The only real argument would be that it might be overstating the mls a bit but i think since all teams arent created equal thats about right

I think the championship is a good league......maybe I should have said the league below that

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On 8/13/2018 at 9:52 AM, top cheese said:

No offense but if your including a lot of these players in the "stars" categories ( i.e petite, hedges, wright-Phillips) its a sign your league is not strong. And if they were star players wouldn't you think they could establish themselves in top European leagues not 2nd and 3rd divisions. Dwyer with Orlando looks great in MLS and would be a decent player on a mid tier championship team in England.

Over this hill should also include those in the 30's ....decline is pretty rapid at 30

No offense taken bud.

I am not arguing that MLS is a super high quality league. It isn't. The only point I am making (and you are ignoring), is that "over the hill" stars just aren't common in MLS anymore. Anyone paying close attention to the league knows that.

Yes, typically decline happens at 30, but some players get better with age. I am looking at it case-by-case.

I don't care about the lack of MLS "stars" in top European leagues. That is not my point, but since you are so clearly hung up on that: Michael Bradley, Geoff Cameron, Clint Dempsey all thrived in top European leagues, to name a few...

And that was back when MLS was a "retirement league". Now that it is a destination league for Latin America  players aiming to springboard to Europe, you're going to see a lot more guys added to that list in the near future.

Edit: how did I forget the former inter and bolonga player taider!

@top cheese you can swap him in for Piette....i mean..."petite" ?

 

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On 8/13/2018 at 8:04 AM, Obinna said:

MUN having a shit soccer team is a poor argument for suggesting NL will never produce a pro player. Those two things having nothing to do with each other.

One reason MUN struggle in men's soccer because they are basically limited to 100% local players - meanwhile SMU and Dal and Cape Breton have half their squad comprised of players from Ontario or Alberta or from other countries even. I am not suggesting St. John's CPL will have a roster full of Newfoundlanders like the Seahawks - I am suggesting they could have one or two. 

Another reason MUN struggle is because, at least when I played, they brought players together much later than other teams, who start training in late August. MUN don't get their players together until after the final four challenge cup labour day weekend at the beginning of september. That head start of a few weeks makes a difference.

Anyways, I digress. I am not compelled by your agurment that a shit mun team means there will never be a newfoundland pro player.

That literally makes zero sense.

There are pro players from other sports, look at Carl English. Are you going to tell me the basketball scene in NL is so much better than the soccer scene? Lmao

And speaking of the Ottawa Fury, two newfoundlanders were in their youth system, aka on the path to being a pro.

All it takes is one man. That's all I am saying.

It will happen sooner or later, regardless of if CPL ever comes to newfoundland.

 

I'll be devils' advocate here. UPEI has been really good over the last twenty years with a squad almost entirely made up of Islanders.

UPEI also has a great coach.

 

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2 hours ago, Soccerpro said:

I'll be devils' advocate here. UPEI has been really good over the last twenty years with a squad almost entirely made up of Islanders.

UPEI also has a great coach.

 

Yeah I also thought of UPEI as an outlier at the time of writing that and didn't address it, but I do think what separates them from MUN is indeed the coaching.

Specifically....Lewis Page.

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4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I also thought of UPEI as an outlier at the time of writing that and didn't address it, but I do think what separates them from MUN is indeed the coaching.

Specifically....Lewis Page.

Jesus, he had a great game for Charlton today but he's a coach too?!

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