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Cavalry FC launch/2019 off season thread

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3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Sure bud whatever keeps you happy. Bottom line is that if his career had been heading in the right direction this is not the sort of club that would be appearing on his resume as a place where he struggled to get playing time,  so the signing is definitely underwhelming. 

I don't deny that this signing was underwhelming given the hype, but I just don't know why you keep parroting the line that CPL will be made up of mostly semi-pro, when the vast majority at the moment, including Jordan, have significant pro experience.

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57 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

All this in response to a post where I mentioned he was an England youth international during his time at Arsenal. I'll know better than to try to engage in conversation next time.

No you won't. :)

Edited by LAK
to add a smiley face :)

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I think that as an ex-Arsenal and England NT guy, Cavalry must have paid low and are investing in his potential.

Low risk.

If he doesn't pan out, he'll be released and transfer at low cost. If the change of scenary gets him to play to the level he was projected back in England, or near, than it could pay off big time for a low cost and low risk.

This is the trend for year 1, young, cheap, experienced but yet to have live up to their full potential. Top Euro club will never have the patience to stick with a late bloomer but if that's what he is, Cavalry paid cheap for a potential good international.

We might have to wait to 2025-2026, if CPL goes 2.0, to see the top signing some are hoping for 

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15 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

People would claim that about the Scottish second tier as well but there is usually at least one part-time club with a support of under 1000 in that division (Alloa and Dumbarton have been the usual suspects on that in recent seasons). In a European pro/rel system some small clubs can get to mix it with the big boys for a few seasons.

You are entirely mistaken to argue professionalism on the basis of spectators, I understand why others get teed off with your posting, since you have a tendency to just make **** up. 

In Spain, every third tier player is pro, fully, 100%. There are teams with 14,000 in the stands, and others with 850. Makes absolutely no difference. Facts are facts. 

You are also mistaken about Scotland. If a club that is fully modest promotes into a tier designated pro, it has pro obligations,  and players are not expected to do anything but play football, with year-long contracts. It is a standard that is legally and economically recognised as professional by the national federation or FA, and that is that. 

It is really not so hard to understand.

(editing...) The opposite is technically true as well. You have storied clubs fallen on hard times, slipped into lower tiers, and they could have massive stadiums, decent support, even pay their players, but their category is not technically "pro", and they are not under professional obligations. 

The UEFA, in fact, has this clearly defined: there is a UEFA regions competition, and players can only be involved if they are not in a pro category according their own FA, so that sweeps all across Europe and it is clear as nails. 

Just to be precise: the category of "amateur" is not always used in world soccer, as there is nothing impeding even a 7th tier player from being paid something under most federated systems. If we say "semi-pro", that is simply a useful explanation, it really has no legal ground.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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34 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...You are also mistaken about Scotland. If a club that is fully modest promotes into a tier designated pro, it has pro obligations, ...

I am from Scotland originally, so I suspect I know a lot more about what happens there than you do. There were almost always semi-pro teams in Scotland's top flight from when it was started until the late 1980s when the number of full-time clubs increased from nine to where it is in the present day at around twenty making it difficult for semi-pro sides to ever feature in a ten or twelve club top flight. Even today, however, that statement still very much applies where the second tier is concerned. Alloa Athletic are definitely semi-pro this season. Crowds of 700 or so don't balance the books if you try to have a fully pro first team squad and any club that have tried to do it on that support level have run into massive financial problems and three (Clydebank, Airdrie and Gretna) basically outright folded.

Clubs can still play in what is generally viewed as being a fully professional division as a semi-pro team or with a mixed semi- and fully-pro roster as long as they get enough points to avoid relegation. It has even happened in the Football League in England. Wimbledon chose to remain semi-pro during their first season in the fourth division in the late 1970s. England's fifth tier Conference league started off as being fully semi-pro at around that time but over the years as interest grew and crowds increased well into four figures it has slowly become the norm for clubs in it to be full-time. There is no rule that forces clubs to do that. It is up to them how they spend their budget. A pro player is someone that gets paid period regardless of whether it is their only income source. If you only get expenses you sign on an amateur form instead.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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19 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I am from Scotland originally, so I suspect I know a lot more about what happens there than you do. There were almost always semi-pro teams in Scotland's top flight from when it was started until the late 1980s when the number of full-time clubs increased from nine to where it is in the present day at around twenty making it difficult for semi-pro sides to ever feature in a ten or twelve club top flight. Even today, however, that statement still very much applies where the second tier is concerned. Alloa Athletic are definitely semi-pro this season. Crowds of 700 or so don't balance the books if you try to have a fully pro first team squad and any club that have tried to do it on that support level have run into massive financial problems and three (Clydebank, Airdrie and Gretna) basically outright folded.

Clubs can still play in what is generally viewed as being a fully professional division as a semi-pro team or with a mixed semi- and fully-pro roster as long as they get enough points to avoid relegation. It has even happened in the Football League in England. Wimbledon chose to remain semi-pro during their first season in the fourth division in the late 1970s. England's fifth tier Conference league started off as being fully semi-pro at around that time but over the years as interest grew and crowds increased well into four figures it has slowly become the norm for clubs in it to be full-time. There is no rule that forces clubs to do that. It is up to them how they spend their budget. A pro player is someone that gets paid period regardless of whether it is their only income source. If you only get expenses you sign on an amateur form instead.

Right, and I was born Jewish so I'm an expert in Talmud, and no one knows anything more than I do about Kabbalah. I know when I am obliged to wash my hands mystically.

End of discussion. 

(all you have to do is read the ******* SFA rules but you won't, you prefer to talk out of your ass).

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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Hurts to admit you were wrong sometimes, so by all means run away if you are incapable of having a polite discussion about this. In reality, Scotland has well over 200 clubs that play in leagues where the clubs are allowed to sign players on professional forms with the SFA in the same way Rangers and Celtic do. Only around 20 of those clubs run with a full-time training regime during what would normally be regarded as the regular work day. The ones that don't get called "semi-pro" or more often in a Scottish context "part-time", but there is no such category when it comes to doing player registration. You either sign professional forms or amateur ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloa_Athletic_F.C.

Alloa Athletic Football Club is a Scottish association football semi-professional club based in the town of Alloa, Clackmannanshire. Founded as Clackmannan County in 1878, the club changed its name to Alloa a year later and to Alloa Athletic in 1883. The club won promotion via the Championship Playoffs and compete in the Scottish Championship in season 2018–19, as a member of the Scottish Professional Football League.[1]

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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15 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Hurts to admit you were wrong sometimes, so by all means run away if you are incapable of having a polite discussion about this. In reality, Scotland has well over 200 clubs that play in leagues where the clubs are allowed to sign players on professional forms with the SFA in the same way Rangers and Celtic do. Only around 20 of those clubs run with a full-time training regime during what would normally be regarded as the regular work day. The ones that don't get called "semi-pro" or more often in a Scottish context "part-time", but there is no such category when it comes to doing player registration. You either sign professional forms or amateur ones.

You are right about Scottish League One, in that over half the clubs are semi-pro, but I think it's a bit of a non-sequitur in that the argument being made by you isn't that "some European leagues are semi-pro" but that "CPL largely draws from semi-pro leagues". Of course, there's quite a few semi-pro players especially those that remained in Canada, but that's not the full picture, considering the large numbers of those with professional backgrounds that have been signed. As far as I know, CPL has yet to sign someone from Scotland League One, but at York, that have signings from S-League, Lithuania A-Lyga, a professional Spanish 3rd div club, USL. And while someone like Roger Thompson last played for a semi-pro club in 3rd div Sweden, he has significant pro experience with Trelleborgs Fotbollsförening. 

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15 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

You are right about Scottish League One, in that over half the clubs are semi-pro, but I think it's a bit of a non-sequitur in that the argument being made by you isn't that "some European leagues are semi-pro" but that "CPL largely draws from semi-pro leagues". ...

Can't be bothered searching back, but my recollection is that I wrote something along the lines that more players have been coming from a mainly semi-pro sort of environment than I suspect most people on here would have initially expected.

Scottish League One is the third tier, for what it's worth, and only one out of ten, Raith Rovers, is fully pro at that level this season AFAIA. Airdrie were as well recently, but I think reverted to being part-time again. The number of full-time clubs that Scotland has is usually just over twenty and that means that at least one of them is likely to be relegated from the second tier most seasons as only 22 clubs can play in the top two tiers, so there is usually at least one part-time club able to move in the opposite direction.

I don't know for sure what happens in the Czech second tier and I think I prefaced what I wrote with probably for that reason but when I see that most of the clubs are drawing under 1000 spectators in a division, I begin to strongly suspect that part-time players are likely to be a part of the mix in a similar sort of way.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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Sweden have a structured 10 tier league system and the players in tier 3 train full time ( ie.4-6 times a week) get food and accommodation paid for on top of their wages so it’s probably a little insulting to refer to them as part time just because in General there is not a great deal of money outside of the Allsvenskan and Superettan league but the quality of player exists all down the top 4 tiers. Yes some also have let time jobs as well.  The CanPL is paying wages of around 30-35k to a high proportion of players and not providing food or accommodation to most So actually many players in Sweden tier 1 are financially better off than thier Cpl peers ! Food for thought ! 

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I can remember a Belgian club called Beveren playing in the Cup Winners Cup semis with a part-time team back in the 1970s so I don't see being "semi-pro" as some kind of huge insult. The main differences from full-time level tends to be fitness level of the players and organization at set pieces, but elite semi-pro is still a tremendously high standard compared to what most people are ever able to do in the sport.

Edited by BringBackTheBlizzard

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I’m sorry but that is not the case.  Yes an English National league north player that trains 2/3 a week is not going to be anywhere near as match fit as a Championship or Premier league player. However a Spanish German or Scandinavian 3rd Tier player who trains 5/6 a week is going to be very close. CPl players will only train 3/4 a week max once the season starts due to the traveling schedule so will not be any fitter than a third tier player in Europe. Someone put out some interesting stats last week on a signed CPL player last week who was playing in the third tier in comparison to a national team player I will find them and attach 

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2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Can't be bothered searching back, but my recollection is that I wrote something along the lines that more players have been coming from a mainly semi-pro sort of environment than I suspect most people on here would have initially expected.

Scottish League One is the third tier, for what it's worth, and only one out of ten, Raith Rovers, is fully pro at that level this season AFAIA. Airdrie were as well recently, but I think reverted to being part-time again. The number of full-time clubs that Scotland has is usually just over twenty and that means that at least one of them is likely to be relegated from the second tier most seasons as only 22 clubs can play in the top two tiers, so there is usually at least one part-time club able to move in the opposite direction.

I don't know for sure what happens in the Czech second tier and I think I prefaced what I wrote with probably for that reason but when I see that most of the clubs are drawing under 1000 spectators in a division, I begin to strongly suspect that part-time players are likely to be a part of the mix in a similar sort of way.

Woopz, looked at the wrong league ... looks like Ladbroke Championship only has 'one' semi-pro club - Alloa. All other clubs are professional

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1 hour ago, Chris 1976 said:

...CPl players will only train 3/4 a week max once the season starts due to the traveling schedule so will not be any fitter than a third tier player in Europe...

Will read the stats you mention with interest, but the main reason I would be skeptical on that is I think it overstates the importance of the number of training sessions a club holds per week when they have to cater to both imports from countries like Canada and local players with second jobs. If CanPL players are all not working second jobs during the regular season (still an if, but I suspect it will probably be the case), I suspect it's a lot easier for them to do what they need to do to have a pro athlete's level of fitness compared to the local players with second jobs in leagues like the Swedish third tier, if only because there are so many more hours in the day available to them to do so at that point and they generally have far fewer distractions.

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1 hour ago, Chris 1976 said:

I’m sorry but that is not the case.  Yes an English National league north player that trains 2/3 a week is not going to be anywhere near as match fit as a Championship or Premier league player. However a Spanish German or Scandinavian 3rd Tier player who trains 5/6 a week is going to be very close. CPl players will only train 3/4 a week max once the season starts due to the traveling schedule so will not be any fitter than a third tier player in Europe. Someone put out some interesting stats last week on a signed CPL player last week who was playing in the third tier in comparison to a national team player I will find them and attach 

Don't know about Spain, but 3rd tier Germany is fullpro. The statement above goes for the 4th tier (the Regionalligas). 

Not to say there aren't amateurs in pro-leagues, but that doesn't make them semipro. 

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Is Regionalliga not a bit of a mix as well with the II teams like the one Jordan Brown played for and some traditional big clubs that are currently slumming it (e.g. Rot-Weiss Essen) able to be fully pro at that level while most clubs are not?

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12 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Is Regionalliga not a bit of a mix as well with the II teams like the one Jordan Brown played for and some traditional big clubs that are currently slumming it (e.g. Rot-Weiss Essen) able to be fully pro at that level while most clubs are not?

Yes it is. Although I think most players live as pro's (daily training) they might not all be in fact. 

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4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Hurts to admit you were wrong sometimes, so by all means run away if you are incapable of having a polite discussion about this. In reality, Scotland has well over 200 clubs that play in leagues where the clubs are allowed to sign players on professional forms with the SFA in the same way Rangers and Celtic do. Only around 20 of those clubs run with a full-time training regime during what would normally be regarded as the regular work day. The ones that don't get called "semi-pro" or more often in a Scottish context "part-time", but there is no such category when it comes to doing player registration. You either sign professional forms or amateur ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloa_Athletic_F.C.

Alloa Athletic Football Club is a Scottish association football semi-professional club based in the town of Alloa, Clackmannanshire. Founded as Clackmannan County in 1878, the club changed its name to Alloa a year later and to Alloa Athletic in 1883. The club won promotion via the Championship Playoffs and compete in the Scottish Championship in season 2018–19, as a member of the Scottish Professional Football League.[1]

Wikipedia, my go-to source for Talmudic interpretation as well.

What you don't get is that the term semi-professional is meaningless if the team is playing in a pro division, under pro rules, subject to pro criteria, under the entire legal and financial terms established by the Scottish FA for teams in that division. Making it, when there, pro, in the things pertinent to that category. Such as all the players in it.

At least in football terms. If what you are saying is that the equipment manager has another job, and the groundskeeper, then you are most definitely out of our league in this discussion.

The point is--to get to the core of things instead of a wasting time with a guy who claims to be a Scottish expert but has a Welsh national football icon as his avatar--that is bothers you that the CPL is signing players with pro experience around the world, and that you would prefer to call them semi-pro or amateur to denigrate the league. As pretty well you have done from day one. Not critical, just with a slighted, derogatory spirit you insist on over and over again. With no basis. It has been clearly pointed out to you that a player is from a pro league, and you say, nah, he's amateur. It's like that Louis CK joke about coming to America and meeting the natives.

"-This is India, isn't it?

-No

-You're Indian, right?

-No, I'm not. 

-You're not?

-No

-Nah, you're Indian!!

And five hundred years later we are still calling them Indians even though we know they aren't Indians, because we are too lazy to call them anything else."

 

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1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...but has a Welsh national football icon as his avatar...

Really? Shows how much you know about soccer, if you don't know who that is. Only one of the greatest midfielders of all time in terms of dribbling skills and he definitely isn't from Wales. The reason I use it as an avatar is as a joke related to how I would sometimes like to respond to certain posters on here that is probably lost on about 99% of people on here, but is related to an interview said midfielder did for a documentary.

 

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Really? Shows how much you know about soccer, if you don't know who that is. Only one of the greatest midfielders of all time in terms of dribbling skills and he definitely isn't from Wales. The reason I use it as an avatar is as a joke related to how I would sometimes like to respond to certain posters on here that is probably lost on about 99% of people on here, but is related to an interview said midfielder did for a documentary.

I've always wondered who it is, and i feel like now is as good a time as any to ask, especially since this has a lot to do with Cavalry's season. Can you please enlighten us who it is? Especially for the people that may not have been alive and/or following soccer in his era.

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