SOCCER INTEREST IN YOUR COMMUNITY

[Robert]

How much soccer interest is there in your community? What was the average attendance for a soccer match by the premier club in your community, during the 2017 season?

27,647 - Toronto FC *

21,416 - Vancouver Whitecaps *

20,046 - Montreal Impact *

  5,365 - Ottawa Fury **

  3,408 - Edmonton FC ***

 

* https://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2017-mls-attendance/

** http://www.ottawafuryfc.com/news_article/show/860407?referrer_id=3319049

*** https://soccerstadiumdigest.com/2017-nasl-attendance/

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

How can i join this community @Robert??

[Robert]

The opening post of this thread may seem vague, so please allow me to elaborate. If the five clubs listed above were to join forces and form a Canadian sub-Premier League, and using their 2017 average attendance numbers as an example, let's consider the following scenario:

27,647 - Toronto FC

21,416 - Vancouver Whitecaps

20,046 - Montreal Impact

  5,365 - Ottawa Fury

  3,408 - Edmonton FC

77,882 - League total

15,176 - League average attendance per match

Let's say this league was able to sell tickets at an average price of $20 per ticket, which would equal $303,520 in gate revenue per match. Now if this league were to draw up a schedule that would see all clubs playing each other once at home and once away, there would be four home matches for each club. They would each derive ($303,520 x 4 home matches) $1,214,080 from gate revenue. Now, if each club had a roster of 16 players and 4 coaches, each club would have to purchase (20 persons x 4 away matches) 80 round-trip plane tickets at say $1,000 a ticket, for a total of $80,000 on plane tickets, and an additional traveling expense of ($300 per diem per player for hotel, taxi & food) $24,000. Thus far, the income statement would read:

$1,214,080 - Gate revenue

$    104,000 - Travel expense

$1,110,080 - Balance

If you divided that balance by 20, only the players and coaching staff, they would receive $55,504 each. However, one would still need to rent a stadium, hire staff to manage the club, buy insurance, and only professional clubs know what else. Now chances are that any new league will be very lucky to attract 50% of the attendance numbers above, as those clubs are not going to pack up and leave the leagues they are currently playing in. It is also unlikely that a second club in these 5 markets will garner much support. Therefore, I pose the question again; "How much soccer interest is there in your community?" All of a sudden Mt. Vic's little fantasy league looks a lot less viable, done it?

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

The opening post of this thread may seem vague, so please allow me to elaborate. If the five clubs listed above were to join forces and form a Canadian sub-Premier League, and using their 2017 average attendance numbers as an example, let's consider the following scenario:

27,647 - Toronto FC

21,416 - Vancouver Whitecaps

20,046 - Montreal Impact

  5,365 - Ottawa Fury

  3,408 - Edmonton FC

77,882 - League total

15,176 - League average attendance per match

Let's say this league was able to sell tickets at an average price of $20 per ticket, which would equal $303,520 in gate revenue per match. Now if this league were to draw up a schedule that would see all clubs playing each other once at home and once away, there would be four home matches for each club. They would each derive ($303,520 x 4 home matches) $1,214,080 from gate revenue. Now, if each club had a roster of 16 players and 4 coaches, each club would have to purchase (20 persons x 4 away matches) 80 round-trip plane tickets at say $1,000 a ticket, for a total of $80,000 on plane tickets, and an additional traveling expense of ($300 per diem per player for hotel, taxi & food) $24,000. Thus far, the income statement would read:

$1,214,080 - Gate revenue

$    104,000 - Travel expense

$1,110,080 - Balance

If you divided that balance by 20, only the players and coaching staff, they would receive $55,504 each. However, one would still need to rent a stadium, hire staff to manage the club, buy insurance, and only professional clubs know what else. Now chances are that any new league will be very lucky to attract 50% of the attendance numbers above, as those clubs are not going to pack up and leave the leagues they are currently playing in. It is also unlikely that a second club in these 5 markets will garner much support. Therefore, I pose the question again; "How much soccer interest is there in your community?" All of a sudden Mt. Vic's little fantasy league looks a lot less viable, done it?

Are you suggesting the CPL could potentially fail and fold up shop? Well why are we only hearing about this now? Someone should tell the prospective owners quickly so they stop before making fools of themselves!!!

[Rheo]

At least this crap will stay out of the general thread for once lol

[Robert]

8 hours ago, Rheo said:

At least this crap will stay out of the general thread for once

lol

 

I hope am wrong. I know from reading the CanPL forum that enthusiasm and desire for a domestic league is sky-high within our community. That is why I did not post this thread on  the CanPL forum. I don't want to piss on everybody's parade. I am, however, entitled to express my thoughts on the feasibility of a domestic league. I have been following soccer in Canada since 1969. I have studied the history of soccer in Canada, and published a book on the early history of soccer in British Columbia. I have witnessed the CLS come and go. I have read the 2000 KPMG report, which concluded:

On January 6th, 2000, in Montreal, at a cost of $60,000, KPMG delivered to the entire CSA board, invited guests and the pro soccer community from across Canada its final verdict:

Based on the interviews and field work conducted to date, we believe the viability of a Canadian professional soccer league is risky and highly speculative.

Lyle Hall, KPMG

So feel free to lol if you wish, however, I concur with KPMG, and I have more than likely invested more hours in researching and studying this subject than the accounting firm did. On the bright side, I do have a plan for a national soccer structure that is viable, and will develop soccer players and coaches to a higher level than has ever been attain in this country before. Why do I not share this plan with the Voyageurs or the CSA? Well, it's not like I receive much respect from either.  No problem! Don't need it, and don't want it. If the CSA can afford to pay KPMG $60,000 to tell them a domestic league in Canada is a risky and highly speculative venture, then they can pay me double that amount for a plan that will succeed. If not, I will take that plan to my grave. lol that!

My prediction is that the CanPL, if it gets off the ground, will not last more than 5 years, and you can take that to the bank!

[Gopherbashi]

I don't discount your last sentence, but there's more to revenue than simply attendance - otherwise TFC wouldn't even be able to pay for Giovinco's contract, let alone everyone else.

[Rheo]

No offense meant, obviously you've done your research, you have your opinion and definitely more than full of yourself to toot your own horn as you have lol.  I'm just willing to believe that these people, who are choosing to invest their money, have done a hell of a lot more research than you and have been able to come up with a business plan that has a chance to succeed.  You don't, that's cool.  All good, cheers.

[Admin]

I think we have enough doom to go around.

What are you going to do about it?  

What are you going to do to make this league succeed?

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Rheo said:

No offense meant, obviously you've done your research, you have your opinion and definitely more than full of yourself to toot your own horn as you have lol.  I'm just willing to believe that these people, who are choosing to invest their money, have done a hell of a lot more research than you and have been able to come up with a business plan that has a chance to succeed.  You don't, that's cool.  All good, cheers.

Along with the full of myself me, the accounting firm of KPMG, and owners of the following clubs don't share your belief in those who are choosing to invest their money and have done "a hell of a lot more research" in this risky and highly speculative venture:

 

Teams

The Canadian Soccer League showcased 13 teams throughout its six-year history, debuting in 1987 with 8 clubs. The league reached its peak of club participation and national exposure in the 1990 season with 11 clubs, while closing out its final season in 1992 with a low of 6 clubs. Some clubs involved in the league, such as the Vancouver 86ers and Toronto Blizzard, existed prior to the formation of the CSL and would go on to play in other leagues after the CSL's demise in following the 1992 season. Clubs participating in the CSL throughout its six years of existence included:

• Calgary Kickers/Calgary Strikers (1987–1989)
• Edmonton Brickmen (1987–1990)
• Hamilton Steelers (1987–1991)
• Kitchener Spirit/Kitchener Kickers (1990–1991)
• London Lasers (1990 & 1992)
• North York Rockets (1987–1992)
• Ottawa Intrepid/Ottawa Pioneers (1987–1989)
• Montreal Supra (1988–1992)
• Nova Scotia Clippers (1991)
• Toronto Blizzard (1987–1992)
• Winnipeg Fury (1987–1992)
• Vancouver 86ers (1987–1992)
• Victoria Vistas (1989–1990)

I guess the owners of the above clubs didn't do a hell of a lot of research before they invested their money. Do you have any evidence, as in links, that can confirm the hell of a lot of research this current group has done, or are you just spouting off some cockamamey bullshit? The only one who's gonna money money off of this venture is the guy that's selling those styling t-shirts at $25 a pop. 

[Trequartisi]

I guess you need to look harder.  Also, the 86ers did not exist prior to CSL.

[Admin]

What the fuck is that irritating thing flashing?

[Gopherbashi]

God, I can't believe anyone would think MLS could succeed.  Don't they know it was tried before with NASL?

[Robert]

3 hours ago, admin said:

What the fuck is that irritating thing flashing?

If that was Trequartisi's third post, I wonder what his first two were like. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

5 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

God, I can't believe anyone would think MLS could succeed.  Don't they know it was tried before with NASL?

The reason that didn't come up very often as an argument at the time (I was online and posting about it) is that MLS drastically changed the business model by using single entity, rosters filled mainly with domestic players and imposing a low hard salary cap, but even with those modifications to prevent another out of control wage spiral on import players they still probably would have folded if they hadn't stumbled on the SSS concept (that was arguably closer to what was originally in the rival League One America proposal) courtesy of the Columbus Crew and for the most part moved out of large gridiron football stadia because the rental deals on those (and the lack of access to gameday revenue streams like concessions) were killing them financially when crowd levels didn't meet the initial overly optimistic expectations.

It's not so obvious at this point that the CanPL group have learned the lessons from what went wrong with the original CPSL and CSL to anything like the same extent that MLS did with the NASL, because more time has elapsed and memories of the last league are not so fresh. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that it will succeed this time around because soccer is a lot more popular now. I suspect the fact that TFC can draw 28k and have $1.2 million per game in revenues has some would be investors with little previous experience with soccer thinking there is easy money to be made.

What seems to be overlooked is that MLS crowds are not so different from those of the original NASL when it was at its peak and its a lower calibre of play that would be involved with CanPL that has struggled to draw more than 3k paid in recent years in Edmonton in the present day NASL. Some posters on here don't seem to grasp that I would love to see it work, but when people start talking about crowds in the 6 to 10k range in the smaller cities there is a feeling of deja vue for some of us that have been following this stuff for a few decades and it's not in a good way given ventures like the Edmonton Aviators and the Canadian Baseball League are what are coming to mind.

[Rheo]

So to summarize your thoughts

-it didn't work in the 80's so it can't work now

-an accounting firm, who you dismiss because you assume you did more research doesn't think it will work

-the people who are funding the league can't be as smart as you or done as much research as you so it won't work

Everything leads up to it not working, yet somehow you have this miracle way that it can work, that you and only you has figured out.

I've never once said that it's a slam dunk or a sure thing.  But to just to outright dismiss any chance of success, when so much of their plans are unknown is asinine in my opinion.  But as you said we're all allowed to have our opinions.  Agree to disagree

ps-I think you do enjoy pissing on everyone's parade a little bit  

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

^^^I put this guy on ignore because of all the pointless strawman arguments he posts. To summarize my genuine thoughts, so he doesn't derail this thread, I hope they adjust the business plan to something that is sustainable on FCE-sized crowds so people like Tom Fath actually want to be involved at launch, and they put in place the best elements of single entity to ensure reasonable competitive parity so they don't repeat some of the mistakes made by the CSL. With a realistic business plan in place and an inclusive approach that reaches out to MLS rather than treating it as a rival I think lower budget pro soccer could be done successfully in the present day.

[Rheo]

So blocked because I point out that things aren't the near certainty that you say they are over and over and over lol.  Rather Trumpian BBTB

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Rheo said:

So to summarize your thoughts

-it didn't work in the 80's so it can't work now

-an accounting firm, who you dismiss because you assume you did more research doesn't think it will work

-the people who are funding the league can't be as smart as you or done as much research as you so it won't work

Everything leads up to it not working, yet somehow you have this miracle way that it can work, that you and only you has figured out.

I've never once said that it's a slam dunk or a sure thing.  But to just to outright dismiss any chance of success, when so much of their plans are unknown is asinine in my opinion.  But as you said we're all allowed to have our opinions.  Agree to disagree

ps-I think you do enjoy pissing on everyone's parade a little bit  

 

So to summarize and reply to your summary of my thoughts:

1) "It didn't work in the 80s so it can't work now." One should always take a precedent into account before making a legal or investment decision. In this case, the precedent does not support the consideration.

2) "An accounting firm, who you dismiss because you assume you did more research doesn't think it will work." Although your wording is not that clear, I do get the jest of the point you are trying to make. And yes, making assumptions is a dangerous path to travel as one who does usually makes an "ASS(of)U(and)ME, however, I put 5,000 hours into the research of my book on the history of soccer in British Columbia (I did keep track of my hours throughout that project), and given the fact that the CSA paid KPMG $60,000 to conduct its research, I feel relatively confident to assume a former BIG 8* accounting firm would charge more than $12 per hour (x 5,000) for its services. Hence, I never dismissed KPMG, and it is highly likely that I put in more hours of research!

3) "The people who are funding the league can't be as smart as you or done as much research as you so it won't work." Hey, it's not my money. They are allowed to do whatever they want with their money. However, another failure would make another precedent, and I would say that it would be even more difficult to find other investment interest in the future.

As you can see from the above, I can back up whatever I'm saying. Can you do the same? Here's a free tip on how you could answer my original question; How much soccer interest is there in your community? Show me an invoice how many of those styling "SUPPORT LOCAL SOCCER -CanPL 2019" t-shirts have been sold. 100? 200? 6,000? 10,000?

Time to take a wiz. 

* The Big 8, refers to the 70's and 80's when there were 8 large multinational accounting firms.

• Arthur Andersen.
• Coopers and Lybrand.
• Deloitte Haskins and Sells.
• Ernst and Whinney.
• Peat Marwick Mitchell.
• Price Waterhouse.
• Touche Ross.
• Arthur Young.

[kmouseyc]

If the league does not survive it's because of nay sayers like @Robert who constantly talk the ear off of people who might part with a couple of dollars to support the clubs. Claiming to be this expert on the subject telling them you are wasting your money. But if we as the people who claim they want success for Canadian soccer tried to get involved with time ,money or just positive energy then may be it has a chance. Also I might add that you Robert and your fellow grumpy old men are losing their grip on the pocket books of the major advertising and media firms and realize that soccer can be marketed to world wide audience. So instead of blindly sponsoring baseball, hockey or any of the other major sports who are mostly only marketed in North America they are looking for new investment models. Let's be honest @Robert the world is changing and may be even with all your research it is leaving you and me behind. Anything worthwhile is worth taking a risk! Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained!

[ChrisinOrleans]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:16 PM, Robert said:

I hope am wrong. I know from reading the CanPL forum that enthusiasm and desire for a domestic league is sky-high within our community. That is why I did not post this thread on  the CanPL forum. I don't want to piss on everybody's parade. I am, however, entitled to express my thoughts on the feasibility of a domestic league. I have been following soccer in Canada since 1969. I have studied the history of soccer in Canada, and published a book on the early history of soccer in British Columbia. I have witnessed the CLS come and go. I have read the 2000 KPMG report, which concluded:

On January 6th, 2000, in Montreal, at a cost of $60,000, KPMG delivered to the entire CSA board, invited guests and the pro soccer community from across Canada its final verdict:

Based on the interviews and field work conducted to date, we believe the viability of a Canadian professional soccer league is risky and highly speculative.

Lyle Hall, KPMG

So feel free to lol if you wish, however, I concur with KPMG, and I have more than likely invested more hours in researching and studying this subject than the accounting firm did. On the bright side, I do have a plan for a national soccer structure that is viable, and will develop soccer players and coaches to a higher level than has ever been attain in this country before. Why do I not share this plan with the Voyageurs or the CSA? Well, it's not like I receive much respect from either.  No problem! Don't need it, and don't want it. If the CSA can afford to pay KPMG $60,000 to tell them a domestic league in Canada is a risky and highly speculative venture, then they can pay me double that amount for a plan that will succeed. If not, I will take that plan to my grave. lol that!

My prediction is that the CanPL, if it gets off the ground, will not last more than 5 years, and you can take that to the bank!

You couldn't calculate EBITA on a lemonade stand.  

  

[Rheo]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

As you can see from the above, I can back up whatever I'm saying. Can you do the same? Here's a free tip on how you could answer my original question; How much soccer interest is there in your community? Show me an invoice how many of those styling "SUPPORT LOCAL SOCCER -CanPL 2019" t-shirts have been sold. 100? 200? 6,000? 10,000?

As I have always said in my apparently "pointless strawman arguments" is that the CPL will fail arguments might be right.  I just feel the need to point out that they are theories and not facts as some people like to proclaim they are over and over. 

I'm not saying that I'm right and everything is going to be rainbows, unicorns and CPL success with 30 teams and 2 divisions in the next 3 years (hence the lack of backing up).  All I'm saying that they should be given the chance, that they might have a business plan that can succeed.  

If people do come to the this site because they are interested in the CPL as more information comes out and see nothing but the handful of people condemning it to death based on their theories, no matter how well researched or intended what good is that? To save people from getting their hopes crushed because of past failures and avoid the PTSD (for a lack of a better description) that has obviously affected some. 

You say you hope it succeeds and that you're wrong but in preaching your tales of caution and near certainty of failure, you're telling anyone that's casually ends up and isn't as psycho obsessed (as we all are to spend so much time here) don't bother wasting your time.  I try to counter the aggressive (in my opinion) negativity and skepticism so that people don't walk away before this thing even starts.

Anyways, we know where each other stand.  Don't see the need to beat this to death anymore than we have here and in other forums.  Cheers and thanks for hearing me out.

PS-The answer to your question would be 88 using the figures on the site.

[Robert]

Whatever happened to full disclosure and honesty? As I pointed out, a poorly executed "Mom and Pop" launched league that fails will have a far more harmful impact on the future of Canadian soccer, than I or anyone else on this board could inflict. If my views has no validity, then why are so many here crapping in their pants?

[Robert]

The styling "Support Local Soccer CanPL 2019" T-shirt" sales numbers idea is not that far-fetched in determining Canadian interest in soccer considering:

The Las Vegas NHL bid was successful based on fan deposits for season tickets, and Seattle is about to launch a similar campaign:

https://www.nhl.com/news/las-vegas-franchise-sells-out-season-tickets/c-281931152

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/article200085249.html

Las Vegas reaches limit on season tickets

Capped at 16,000; drive began in February 2015 with initial goal of 10,000 deposits

NHL.com @NHL

 September 19th, 2016

 Share

The Las Vegas NHL franchise has received deposits on all 16,000 season tickets available for the 2017-18 season.

Fans are able to place deposits on season tickets, which will be fulfilled as they become available. A limited number of game-day tickets will be made available before the team begins play next season. 

"Today, we are proud to announce that season tickets for the 2017 season are sold out," owner Bill Foley said. "This is a truly historic event for the Las Vegas community, the NHL and all of our fans. I would like to thank everyone who has supported and continues to support our efforts to make the Las Vegas NHL franchise a success."

The season-ticket drive began in February 2015 with a goal of 10,000 deposits. More than 5,000 tickets were sold within two days and 9,000 season tickets were sold within a month of the launch, according to the franchise.

"We launched a season-ticket drive to demonstrate the long-term viability of an NHL franchise in Las Vegas and were able to surpass our initial goal within months." Foley said.

Las Vegas will play at T-Mobile Arena, which has a seating capacity of 17,500 for hockey games.

In mid-October, around the start of this NHL regular season, Foley said he hopes to announce the nickname, logo and color scheme, and sell merchandise. Jerseys probably won't go on sale until December.

Las Vegas was awarded the 31st NHL franchise on June 22, the League's first expansion team since the Columbus Blue Jackets and Minnesota Wild began play in the 2000-01 season. The NHL is the first of the four major North American professional sports leagues to put a team in the city.

 

A group working to bring the NHL to Seattle is preparing to announce it will start taking deposits for season tickets, mynorthwest.com reports. In December, the Seattle City Council approved a memorandum of understanding with the group for a $600 million privately financed renovation of KeyArena. Elaine Thompson AP

SPORTS

NHL ticket drive starts soon. It could determine if Seattle gets a team

BY CRAIG HILL

chill@thenewstribune.com

February 14, 2018 11:26 AM

Updated February 15, 2018 04:19 PM

A group working to bring the NHL to Seattle is preparing to announce it will start taking deposits for season tickets, according to multiple reports.

Citing league sources, mynorthwest.com reports sales are likely to begin March 1.

ESPN also reports the ticket drive “should begin in the next few weeks and will determine whether the league accepts Seattle's bid.” The group hopes to acquire deposits for about 14,000 tickets. The move is typical for potential ownership groups looking to demonstrate a market’s interest in the sport.

Oak View Group, which includes billionaire investment banker David Bonderman and filmmaker Jerry Bruckheimer, submitted its expansion application to the NHL on Tuesday.

[MtlMario]

5 hours ago, kmouseyc said:

If the league does not survive it's because of nay sayers like @Robert who constantly talk the ear off of people who might part with a couple of dollars to support the clubs. Claiming to be this expert on the subject telling them you are wasting your money. But if we as the people who claim they want success for Canadian soccer tried to get involved with time ,money or just positive energy then may be it has a chance. Also I might add that you Robert and your fellow grumpy old men are losing their grip on the pocket books of the major advertising and media firms and realize that soccer can be marketed to world wide audience. So instead of blindly sponsoring baseball, hockey or any of the other major sports who are mostly only marketed in North America they are looking for new investment models. Let's be honest @Robert the world is changing and may be even with all your research it is leaving you and me behind. Anything worthwhile is worth taking a risk! Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained!

The only thing I disagree with is the" grumpy old men: part. I'm one  but I think the CPL will be a success. There are too many smart people on board willing to put their money where their mouths are. It's too bad we'll never need that secret, no doubt about it , can't miss plan that ONLY I (Robert) can figure out.

 

2 hours ago, Robert said:

It could determine if Seattle gets a team

AS I said in a previous post, The NHL has become an American league that has no interest in putting any more teams in Canada ( they might even be happier with less teams).