Jonathan David

[El Diego]

Going over the Gent squad, I noticed that they have a player named Sigurd Rosted

[villus]

9 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

 

They had as many points that season (10) than all the Belgium champs in the 2 seasons before and after in the Group Stage (That's 4 Champions' League Campaigns). That's why I don't think that domestically, the Belgian League is better than MLS. DC United is a much better team than Eupen. That's what I'm saying. MLS's system makes it that the worst team is still not that bad while BElgium's first division has a lot of teams that aren'T good. I do like that their top 6 teams are playing each other at the end of the season to determine their champion which makes for higher competition if they make it, but if they don't, I don't think that it's better to be in the Europa League qualification bracket.

There are different ways that people would rank a league, top down, bottom up, uniformity of strength etc.  Personally I'd give some extra weight to a league that has UCL spots even if the bottom is pretty weak. The biggest reason for strength of league is to be able to compare talent levels of players and teams, when you are in the champions league/Europa league you can measure competition against known entities and its easier to judge, scouts have comparisons and a sample size against top talent.  With the MLS that isn't the case, MLS very well could be stronger then the Belgian league, but I think in practical terms for a player the Belgian league is probably weighted a little higher if you are playing at the top at least.  

[Ansem]

30 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

 

They had as many points that season (10) than all the Belgium champs in the 2 seasons before and after in the Group Stage (That's 4 Champions' League Campaigns). That's why I don't think that domestically, the Belgian League is better than MLS. DC United is a much better team than Eupen. That's what I'm saying. MLS's system makes it that the worst team is still not that bad while BElgium's first division has a lot of teams that aren'T good. I do like that their top 6 teams are playing each other at the end of the season to determine their champion which makes for higher competition if they make it, but if they don't, I don't think that it's better to be in the Europa League qualification bracket.

Comparing Apples with oranges doesn't make your case. MLS teams has the talent (Healthy starting XI) to win games but they don't have the depth (dealing with injuries, bench & reserve teams) to put on consistent performances throughout a grueling Euro schedule. That's why I maintain that Gent is in a much more competitive environment than MLS.

They need to get it done in CCL without any "byes" or formats helping their workload first before entertaining the idea of putting them on the same level, in my opinion. 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ansem

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Comparing Apples with oranges doesn't make your case. MLS teams has the talent (Healthy starting XI) to win games but they don't have the depth (dealing with injuries, bench & reserve teams) to put on consistent performances throughout a grueling Euro schedule. That's why I maintain that Gent is in a much more competitive environment than MLS.

They need to get it done in CCL without any "byes" or formats helping their workload first before entertaining the idea of putting them on the same level, in my opinion. 

 

I see Gent being a better place for David to develop than your typical MLS club, but not because Belgium is more competitive.

On the contrary, it is the less competitive teams in the league that'll afford David the opportunity for playing time.

Take Ayo Akinola for instance. How mant chances will he realistically get in Toronto? There are no easy games in MLS. Not saying all the bottom teams in Belgium are pushovers, but we know they are not as good and we know bigger clubs like Gent use those games to rotate young players in. That doesn't really happen in MLS unless there is fixture congestion, which crops up less often than in Europe, especially when you factor in the wonky format adjustments that seem to bother you.

Conversly (and speaking to your point Ansem), the Europa and Champions league opportunities are something David can strive to with Gent. That is very valuable. CL in concacaf has no group stage so there are less opportunities, and that's another drawback - though we should also acknowledge our CL format lends itself to more meaningful and high pressue games due to the knockout format.

Overall, I would say David is better off at Gent than in MLS, but I strongly disagree it's because Gent is head and shoulders above your typical MLS team.

Only Anderlecht would go in that category.

Maybe.

[toontownman]

49 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Going over the Gent squad, I noticed that they have a player named Sigurd Rosted

Bet he is the soul of the party in that dressing. 

[villus]

There is a strong argument that weaker leagues are better for developing talent.  Playing in a league where young players not only get playing time but can become important players on a team seems to produce the best talent.  Obviously the style and play of a league and team matter but if you look at the best countries in the world they tend to have domestic leagues that allow for young players to flourish.  England for instance doesn't give young players a chance quite often because they are too worried about winning now and are always willing to buy someone ready now, as opposed to leagues like Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Netherlands and even to a lesser degree Spain and Italy.  The South American teams bring in young players, they play and are given important roles then gradually move up the latter to Europe.  Netherlands young players tend to get a lot of exposure, Spain and Italy even the smaller teams constantly stress good technical young players.  For young talent getting leadership and important roles is really valuable imo.  

[rkomar]

Maybe it's also important to give young players a reasonable career path, just to keep them in the game.  Then, the late bloomers still have a chance to progress, rather than just give up and get on with a normal life.  The more players you have training professionally, the more likely you discover some of international quality.

[Blackdude]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Comparing Apples with oranges doesn't make your case. MLS teams has the talent (Healthy starting XI) to win games but they don't have the depth (dealing with injuries, bench & reserve teams) to put on consistent performances throughout a grueling Euro schedule. That's why I maintain that Gent is in a much more competitive environment than MLS.

 They need to get it done in CCL without any "byes" or formats helping their workload first before entertaining the idea of putting them on the same level, in my opinion. 

  

Okay, but I think the difference is that Belgium league can give a night off to their top players if they play a bottom of the table team because Gent is that much better than Mechelen or Eupen and focus on Europe.  The gap between Atlanta United and San Jose is not as big. We know the gap between MLS and Liga MX is shrinking. And MLS teams are taking the tournament seriously. The big problems that MLS has compared to Belgium is development, because they're too worried about. I think it's more due to the lack of depth for teams in the middle/bottom of the pack in Belgium compared to those in MLS.

[Macksam]

4 hours ago, Blackdude said:

It's not higher.  I think Gent would be a good MLS team. I don't think that they would be  the top team. So I disagree it being higher. Also, can you give me something that proves that MLS. And you still haven proven that Belgium is a higher league than MLS aside from the fact that you hate MLS. Seriously, I don't think Obinna's take is wrong, because it is similar. It's not like he's playing Anderlecht every week.

http://www.ghelamco.com/site/w/news-article/77/ghent-football-team-championship-title-leveraged-by-new-stadium.html

The operating budget in 2015 was 32 Million Euros so if we make an assumption that half of that goes towards player salaries like most sports clubs, plus the fact this team's fanbase has steadily increased the last few year we probably get a little over $20 million US for the team's total annual salary range, which would put it above any MLS squad IMO. I know TFC has a $20,000,000 team salary but three players get nearly 75% of that though.

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:31 PM, PopePouri said:

David will get more minutes and AJH form has plateaued. Don't see why David can't jump ahead of him as our no. 3 striker behind Cavallini and Larin. So he should be called.

I agree, bring him on board asap imo. No need to wait. Make him a late game sub if anything.

[apbsmith]

1 hour ago, rkomar said:

Maybe it's also important to give young players a reasonable career path, just to keep them in the game.  Then, the late bloomers still have a chance to progress, rather than just give up and get on with a normal life.  The more players you have training professionally, the more likely you discover some of international quality.

Well said.....A la Kante....

 

I agree with most, better to bring him in as soon as possible, will be disappointed if he is not called.

26 in 2026, 22 in 2022...

All the best to him and his career, very exciting prospect for us.

Edited August 8, 2018 by apbsmith

[Bertuzzi44]

In terms of team strength, I agree that MLS is probably on par or maybe even better than the Belgian Pro league.

But in terms of player development? Not even close - Belgium blows MLS away. Just take a look at the Belgian national team (current #3 in the world in both FIFA and ELO rankings): De Bruyne, Lukaku, Kompany, Mertens, Courtois, Witsel, Mignolet, Fellaini, Chadli, just to name a few all came from the Belgian league.

So, yea, David is in a great spot to develop!

[Yoginess]

Don’t care about league comparison. Just want to keep tabs on David

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, Macksam said:

http://www.ghelamco.com/site/w/news-article/77/ghent-football-team-championship-title-leveraged-by-new-stadium.html

The operating budget in 2015 was 32 Million Euros so if we make an assumption that half of that goes towards player salaries like most sports clubs, plus the fact this team's fanbase has steadily increased the last few year we probably get a little over $20 million US for the team's total annual salary range, which would put it above any MLS squad IMO. I know TFC has a $20,000,000 team salary but three players get nearly 75% of that though.

I agree, bring him on board asap imo. No need to wait. Make him a late game sub if anything.

True, but that is not necessarily a negative. That doesn't necessarily mean Gent is better than Toronto. 

The flip side of that is TFC can afford 3 special players. It often takes just one special player to win a match in soccer.

How many times has Giovinco or Altidore steal games?

[shamrock]

Overall I really think European leagues (not talking Luxemburg obviously) are stronger because of the salary cap in the US. However the travel in North America is also unique and demands extreme levels of fitness. 

But whatever. Does anyone think the "Buffalos" logo would be considered offensive in Canada / US?

 

 

[Keegan]

10 minutes ago, shamrock said:

Overall I really think European leagues (not talking Luxemburg obviously) are stronger because of the salary cap in the US. However the travel in North America is also unique and demands extreme levels of fitness. 

But whatever. Does anyone think the "Buffalos" logo would be considered offensive in Canada / US?

 

 

I mean, logical people? No that wouldn’t offend, it’s like the Chicago Blackhawks.. but this is 2018 so it would definitely offend for some obscure reason. Like why is the man white?! That’s cultural appropriation! ?

[shamrock]

Of course one could wonder what a native american has to do with the city of Gent...The 7 is btw the number of entrance, so they were the 7th club in the existence of Belgian Soccer to apply. That's pretty cool. 

[Macksam]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

True, but that is not necessarily a negative. That doesn't necessarily mean Gent is better than Toronto. 

The flip side of that is TFC can afford 3 special players. It often takes just one special player to win a match in soccer.

How many times has Giovinco or Altidore steal games?

They are an x-factor no doubt. It would be an interesting match to see. 

 

[dennis]

FWIW, Transfermarkt has the Belgium's Jupiler Pro League's Total market value at 570,98 mil euro vs MLS at 487,50 mil euro. KAA Gent is listed at at TMV of 56,90 mil euro. To put that in perspective TFC is listed at 30.18 mil. Not sure how anyone concludes that MLS is the stronger league by any metric.

Edited August 8, 2018 by dennis

[Keegan]

37 minutes ago, shamrock said:

Of course one could wonder what a native american has to do with the city of Gent...The 7 is btw the number of entrance, so they were the 7th club in the existence of Belgian Soccer to apply. That's pretty cool. 

One could wonder what a Roman soldier has to do with Ottawa as well.  It’s just a mascot and it should be flattering that they chose it.  Imagine a team in China having a Mountie as it’s logo.. who cares?

Edited August 8, 2018 by Keegan

[Obinna]

32 minutes ago, dennis said:

FWIW, Transfermarkt has the Belgium's Jupiler Pro League's Total market value at 570,98 mil euro vs MLS at 487,50 mil euro. KAA Gent is listed at at TMV of 56,90 mil euro. To put that in perspective TFC is listed at 30.18 mil. Not sure how anyone concludes that MLS is the stronger league by any metric.

Well the only metric that's truly viable is head-to-head. Unfortunately we don't have that.

TMV on Transfermarkt can give you a general idea of player, team, or league strength, but it is flawed. For example, I have noticed that players entering MLS from Europe can experience a drop in TMV before they even kick a ball. I suspect MLS values are skewed down based on the bias of whomever sets those figures. 

It's not just MLS either. I noticed the same for players in latin america. In some cases, you see massive rises in TMV once a player heads to Europe, before they've even played. It is as if their value rises by virtue of simply leaving latin america. 

I take more stock in visiting a teams wiki page and browsing through the player's pages to see whom they've played for, how they've fared, international caps, etc. Those stats are not manufactured in the way TMV is.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Obinna

[Keegan]

42 minutes ago, dennis said:

FWIW, Transfermarkt has the Belgium's Jupiler Pro League's Total market value at 570,98 mil euro vs MLS at 487,50 mil euro. KAA Gent is listed at at TMV of 56,90 mil euro. To put that in perspective TFC is listed at 30.18 mil. Not sure how anyone concludes that MLS is the stronger league by any metric.

I agree Belgium is a better overall league but transfermarket means absolutely nothing.. just look at Alphonso Davies.  

Here is what I’ll say.. MLS has better top players but the average MLS starter isn’t as good as the average Belgian league starter.  I believe a starter in Belgium could move to mls no problem but the opposite wouldn’t always hold true - it’s just a tougher and more professional environment. There are a lot of examples of interchange between the leagues.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Keegan

[dennis]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Well the only metric that's truly viable is head-to-head. Unfortunately we don't have that.

TMV on Transfermarkt can give you a general idea of player, team, or league strength, but it is flawed. For example, I have noticed that players entering MLS can experience a drop in TMV before they even kick a ball. I suspect MLS values are skewed down based on the bias of whomever sets those figures. 

I take more stock in visiting a teams wiki page and browsing through the player's pages to see whom they've played for, how they've fared, international caps, etc. Those stats are not manufactured in the way TMV is.

No, its not a perfect way to gauge overall player/team strength but in general i feel its pretty accurate. You argue that its flawed since players drop in value when coming to MLS before even playing. I would argue that is often due to the player transferring from a stronger league and or advancing age of the player. I believe your will see the opposite when you have a younger player transferring in, especially from a weaker league. This goes for any league not just MLS.

I agree with the over all sentiment here that this kid is in a very good situation to prove himself. If he continues to get playing time, based on the quality of his team alone he should be looking at a cmnt call up in the near future.

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, dennis said:

FWIW, Transfermarkt has the Belgium's Jupiler Pro League's Total market value at 570,98 mil euro vs MLS at 487,50 mil euro. KAA Gent is listed at at TMV of 56,90 mil euro. To put that in perspective TFC is listed at 30.18 mil. Not sure how anyone concludes that MLS is the stronger league by any metric.

If you want to play the transfermarkt game, check this out:

League strength based on total TMV per player:

Holland: 1.5

Belgium: 1.2

Brazil: 1.2

Mexico: 1.17

MLS: 0.75

Chile: 0.29

 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, dennis said:

No, its not a perfect way to gauge overall player/team strength but in general i feel its pretty accurate. You argue that its flawed since players drop in value when coming to MLS before even playing. I would argue that is often due to the player transferring from a stronger league and or advancing age of the player. I believe your will see the opposite when you have a younger player transferring in, especially from a weaker league. This goes for any league not just MLS.

I agree with the over all sentiment here that this kid is in a very good situation to prove himself. If he continues to get playing time, based on the quality of his team alone he should be looking at a cmnt call up in the near future.

Could be the case, but advancing age of a player can also mean a player is entering his prime, when he's likely to become a better player. Yet his value is being weighed down in most cases.

The biggest flaw with TMV is that it factors in potential, which is a prediction of the future and not an assessment of the present.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Obinna

[dennis]

8 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I agree Belgium is a better overall league but transfermarket means absolutely nothing.. just look at Alphonso Davies.  

Here is what I’ll say.. MLS has better top players but the average MLS starter isn’t as good as the average Belgian league starter.  I believe a starter in Belgium could move to mls no problem but the opposite wouldn’t always hold true - it’s just a tougher and more professional environment. There are a lot of examples of interchange between the leagues.

For individual players i tend to agree. Transfermarket  measures players over all value which factors their age as well as skill. I think we all could argue that Atiba may be just a good player now as he was 4 years ago when his value was three times higher. Basically it looks at players as long term investments.