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Guys, it is fun to spell this out. There was a very big game today. Mbappe, Neymar, di Maria, and David all entered the field. Only one of those players left with a goal, and got the 3 points for the

Here's the translated article:   Jonathan David (Lille): “I wasn't ready” Jonathan David, the Canadian center forward from Lille, scorer of three goals in his last four matches, talks abou

some positive news here. Galtier saying David is healing much faster than anticipated and he’s walking around well. He definitely won’t play the next two matches but it sounds like he should return be

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6 hours ago, rkomar said:

I think the call was so close that the VAR couldn't definitely prove that the linesman was wrong.  If so, the call on the pitch would stand.

Edit: Ooops!  I didn't notice that Obinna said essentially the same thing already.

And that brings up another issue. So it goes to the call on the field. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this particular instances was one of those plays where the linesman isn't sure, so he waits for the play to unfold, a penalty is called, then he raises the flag to say it might have been offside. Really what he is thinking is it might be offside, so let's double check it. But then is the ruling that since he raised his flag, they have to overturn it? I honestly don't know. I don't watch enough soccer with VAR to know how it works.

Besides, the worst thing about VAR for me is that thought in the back (or sometimes the front) of my mind wondering "is this going to count?" It could be while half heartedly cheering a goal I think will be called back, it could be while watching a chance develop that I am sure was offside. It just takes away from the emotion of watching a game in my opinion.

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8 hours ago, Kent said:

And that brings up another issue. So it goes to the call on the field. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this particular instances was one of those plays where the linesman isn't sure, so he waits for the play to unfold, a penalty is called, then he raises the flag to say it might have been offside. Really what he is thinking is it might be offside, so let's double check it. But then is the ruling that since he raised his flag, they have to overturn it? I honestly don't know. I don't watch enough soccer with VAR to know how it works.

Besides, the worst thing about VAR for me is that thought in the back (or sometimes the front) of my mind wondering "is this going to count?" It could be while half heartedly cheering a goal I think will be called back, it could be while watching a chance develop that I am sure was offside. It just takes away from the emotion of watching a game in my opinion.

To answer your question, what VAR is encouraging in most leagues is for linesmen to keep their flags down even when they've seen an offside, except when its unarguable. 

That could mean that if the play develops, the defense recovers and play resumes, that offside does not get called. If then the defensive team playing out loses it and the attacking team scores, then too bad--the previous offside does not mitigate that. 

This introduces a new concept in football, which is bracketing the play, or how play-on activates a new sequence of play. This was never a football concept in terms of reffing. VAR can call back a goal if there is an attacking foul in an uninterrupted attacking sequence. But if there is a foul, defense recovers or cuts the attack, then loses it, the attackers score, the previous foul is no longer part of the sequence. So the goal is good. Question: how far back in an attacking sequence can a VAR review look, shouldn't there be some limit to that as well? 

As for VAR and offsides: no matter what you decide is offside, at some point you have to establish a moment the ball is released, a body part and the degree of involvement in the play. Now in Spain (not sure if this is an International Board ruling or what) they look at the upper arm to the bicep. Your forearm can be offside, but if your upper arm is not, you are fine. Any foot over the line is offside no matter what. It is extremely specific I find. As for degree of involvement of other players, this seems to have really changed. On a lateral free kick two guys go for the header, one who is offside and the other on, side by side. If the onside player scores, the factor of the other attacker in the play, even screening defenders, seems to not matter at all. I find it odd, but I suppose it is to reduce complexity.

In all this the linesman's flag after the play has developed or finished then serves as an indicator to the head ref and VAR refs to review. But only if a goal or penalty has come about.

I agree that celebrating goals that get called back, or having to wait to celebrate, is a drag. Perhaps it means one in 30-40 goals, not sure, but sometimes those moments of celebration are lost, for players and for fans.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
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9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

To answer your question, what VAR is encouraging in most leagues is for linesmen to keep their flags down even when they've seen an offside, except when its unarguable. 

That could mean that if the play develops, the defense recovers and play resumes, that offside does not get called. If then the defensive team playing out loses it and the attacking team scores, then too bad--the previous offside does not mitigate that. 

This introduces a new concept in football, which is bracketing the play, or how play-on activates a new sequence of play. This was never a football concept in terms of reffing. VAR can call back a goal if there is an attacking foul in an uninterrupted attacking sequence. But if there is a foul, defense recovers or cuts the attack, then loses it, the attackers score, the previous foul is no longer part of the sequence. So the goal is good. Question: how far back in an attacking sequence can a VAR review look, shouldn't there be some limit to that as well? 

As for VAR and offsides: no matter what you decide is offside, at some point you have to establish a moment the ball is released, a body part and the degree of involvement in the play. Now in Spain (not sure if this is an International Board ruling or what) they look at the upper arm to the bicep. Your forearm can be offside, but if your upper arm is not, you are fine. Any foot over the line is offside no matter what. It is extremely specific I find. As for degree of involvement of other players, this seems to have really changed. On a lateral free kick two guys go for the header, one who is offside and the other on, side by side. If the onside player scores, the factor of the other attacker in the play, even screening defenders, seems to not matter at all. I find it odd, but I suppose it is to reduce complexity.

In all this the linesman's flag after the play has developed or finished then serves as an indicator to the head ref and VAR refs to review. But only if a goal or penalty has come about.

I agree that celebrating goals that get called back, or having to wait to celebrate, is a drag. Perhaps it means one in 30-40 goals, not sure, but sometimes those moments of celebration are lost, for players and for fans.

I remember a goal being called back on a Toronto FC game when I think it was Osorio who committed a foul in the build up. I wasn’t a fan of the call at all but overall I think VAR is a positive. I think using possession change but not exceeding over a certain amount of time is a good way to break the game up when it comes to how far you can call a play back with VAR. It would suck if a goal was called back because it touched a hand 80 passes ago at centre field. The NHL’s video review is a lot worse though in my opinion but I do like the coaches challenge. Don’t think it would translate to soccer though...

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23 minutes ago, Craig11rm said:

It would suck if a goal was called back because it touched a hand 80 passes ago at centre field. 

I recently attended (virtually) an update on changes to the laws of the game, and for handball it now says that an accidental touch on the build-up must have an immediate impact on the goal scoring opportunity. For example if an attacker had an accidental touch of the ball but then used his skill to dribble around three players and score than the goal should count.  

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1 hour ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

I recently attended (virtually) an update on changes to the laws of the game, and for handball it now says that an accidental touch on the build-up must have an immediate impact on the goal scoring opportunity. For example if an attacker had an accidental touch of the ball but then used his skill to dribble around three players and score than the goal should count.  

Not sure if there are updates,  or if you are involved in a league doing their own variations, but the International Board ruling that went into place in June 2019 specifically states that a goal scored or created with the use of an accidental hand ball will not count. 

Now the EPL ruling from last summer, 2020, clarified that they would apply this only if the hand came immediately before a goal or goal scoring chance. But again, I am not sure if that is solely an EPL interpretation or not. Leagues are free to delay, fast-track or adjust application of IFAB rules, which apply to senior professional matches, but only to a degree, without detracting from their core intention. 

I like this rule as it is clear: any handball before a goal, of whatever nature, calls that goal back. Interpreting that it be just before the goal sounds fine by me, but what does that mean: two passes, 30 metres out, before a shot that is saved and rebounds out for a goal? 

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52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Not sure if there are updates,  or if you are involved in a league doing their own variations, but the International Board ruling that went into place in June 2019 specifically states that a goal scored or created with the use of an accidental hand ball will not count. 

Now the EPL ruling from last summer, 2020, clarified that they would apply this only if the hand came immediately before a goal or goal scoring chance. But again, I am not sure if that is solely an EPL interpretation or not. Leagues are free to delay, fast-track or adjust application of IFAB rules, which apply to senior professional matches, but only to a degree, without detracting from their core intention. 

I like this rule as it is clear: any handball before a goal, of whatever nature, calls that goal back. Interpreting that it be just before the goal sounds fine by me, but what does that mean: two passes, 30 metres out, before a shot that is saved and rebounds out for a goal? 

No this was presented as a FIFA update, actually in the laws of the game, "after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately: • scores in the opponents’ goal • creates a goal-scoring opportunity"   Every time the IFAB tries to clarify the Laws, they make the referees job harder, as these little tweaks are not known by the players.  This is the same wording from the 19/20 LOFG, with the word immediately added.

To make this relevant to David, as far as I know he has never had a goal called back because of an accidental handball.

Edited by MM3/MM2/MM
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Apologies for continuing this detour on David's thread, but with respect to VAR, have they figured out what happens in the event that...

1. There is a marginal offside, so the linesman keeps their flag down, intending to raise it after the play unfolds.

2. Then there is a red card offense, perhaps a violent tackle from behind. Not just a professional foul, but an ankle breaker. For good measure, maybe someone comes in and punches the person who committed the foul.

3. Then VAR finds that the play was offside.

Are any red cards given out or is it all stricken from the record?

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4 hours ago, Kent said:

Apologies for continuing this detour on David's thread, but with respect to VAR, have they figured out what happens in the event that...

1. There is a marginal offside, so the linesman keeps their flag down, intending to raise it after the play unfolds.

2. Then there is a red card offense, perhaps a violent tackle from behind. Not just a professional foul, but an ankle breaker. For good measure, maybe someone comes in and punches the person who committed the foul.

3. Then VAR finds that the play was offside.

Are any red cards given out or is it all stricken from the record?

Violent Conduct is always a straight red.

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And that makes sense, but the tricky thing for me to get past is that the anger that was the fuel for the red card was in this period of play that doesn't otherwise count. If the flag just goes up, none of it happens. But perhaps I'm overthinking that aspect of it.

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15 hours ago, Kent said:

And that makes sense, but the tricky thing for me to get past is that the anger that was the fuel for the red card was in this period of play that doesn't otherwise count. If the flag just goes up, none of it happens. But perhaps I'm overthinking that aspect of it.

How many cards to enraged players could have been avoided if the ref had not erred in the previous play? 

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Lille up 1-0 at half. A quiet half for David. They need to find a way to get him more involved. I think he's one of the best playmakers on the team but he rarely has the ball with the chance to get his head up.

Edited by Aird25
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