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Jonathan David


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2 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Does Lille have another game on the weekend that David will start? If not, why the hell is Galtier taking David off at 60 minutes when he's the only forward combining well with this teammates? Ikone & Bamba are having shockers of a match, can't believe Weah didn't replace one of them instead.

 

Lille plays Nimes on Saturday

Lille entire midfield is a mess plagued with poor decision making. David at midfield would bring much more value there as he's being wasted there.

5 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Weah on for David (didn't realize Weah was on the bench at first). Another ineffectual performance from Jo.

David was never the "Messi dribbling around defense" type of player. If that's everyone expects of him, you're in for a disappointment. I'm watching the game with my dad and he also noticing how badly he's being served by his midfield passing to him when they shouldn't and ignoring him when they should pass it to him.

Gent played a very different system that could break down stronger foes - It's not like he never played against a Ligue 1 team before or Serie A but the system is different

He needs to move back to attacking midfield

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2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Lille plays Nimes on Saturday

Lille entire midfield is a mess plagued with poor decision making. David at midfield would bring much more value there as he's being wasted there.

David was never the "Messi dribbling around defense" type of player. If that's everyone expects of him, you're in for a disappointment. I'm watching the game with my dad and he also noticing how badly he's being served by his midfield passing to him when they shouldn't and ignoring him when they should pass it to him.

Gent played a very different system that could break down stronger foes - It's not like he never played against a Ligue 1 team before or Serie A but the system is different

He needs to move back to attacking midfield

I am not expecting him to be Messi, but he did not play very well today. Anyone who thinks he does should raise their expectations.

Yes, he did some nice things, and yes, his teammates are not playing well, but that doesn't absolve him. We have become such David apologists that we give him points for being in place for a potential rebound from a goal and don't mention that his poor pass led to the first goal from Angers (after a great bit of defending from him, to be fair).

To be clear, I generally agree that David is not set up to succeed with how Lille line him up and their style of play. But that does not mean that he is playing to the best of his abilities.

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3 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am not expecting him to be Messi, but he did not play very well today. Anyone who thinks he does should raise their expectations.

Yes, he did some nice things, and yes, his teammates are not playing well, but that doesn't absolve him. We have become such David apologists that we give him points for being in place for a potential rebound from a goal and don't mention that his poor pass led to the first goal from Angers (after a great bit of defending from him, to be fair).

To be clear, I generally agree that David is not set up to succeed with how Lille line him up and their style of play. But that does not mean that he is playing to the best of his abilities.

No, he isn't playing as well as he can play - that's the whole point of me saying he should move back to midfield and get it together. His finishing has been poor but his vision and playmaking are still obvious.

Best to take out a midfielder, move David back and add Weah instead of just taking him out.

Edited by Ansem
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Just now, Ansem said:

No, he isn't playing well - that's the whole point of me saying he should move back to midfield and get it together. His finishing has been poor but his vision and playmaking are still obvious.

Best to take out a midfielder, move David back and add Weah instead of just taking him out.

I might agree with you, but there is no way Lille change their structure. Galtier is very rigid, I am not sure he has ever deviated from his 442 (I vaguely remember them going with three centre backs very late in a match to close it out, but can't be sure). This lack of Plan B is another major criticism of this Lille team.

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They have actually replaced David with Ikone as he's been playing up front with Yilmaz and Weah is playing where Ikone was. Since that time Ikone has done sweet f.a. other than to make bad runs and give the ball away about half a dozen times. Yilmaz hit the cross bar on a direct free kick, but that's all they've done since David was taken out.

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Saying that David is not playing well is obvious, but what do you expect? What more can he honestly do? I really feel bad for him. David cannot dribble like Ikone or Bamba. He can't overpower defenders and get shots off with those big strides like Yilmaz. Maybe he needs leg extensions?

Seriously though, it honestly feels like Gaitier just puts him up front so that he can drag defenders out of position with his movement, which is strange use of a 30 Million Euro player, but so far it has been good for the team. There is no incentive to do otherwise with Lille in the title fight.

If you ignore the price tag it is far easier to appreciate David. He continues to start for a top team in France. He is definitely not a stand out, but he's not a scrub either. He is mostly reliable in possession. He works hard for the team. He connects passes in the final third. They are not chance creations, but they at least contribute to the moves. All of this is positive for a 20 year old Canadian.

He hasn't lost his attitude yet, incredibly. That really speaks to his character. 

You just have to chalk this year up to an adjustment period. He came in late. The system obviously was not going to change for him. Let's see who comes and goes in the summer. Maybe Gaitier will build around David tactically in the off season.

Not holding my breath, but gotta be hopeful, right?

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2 hours ago, El Diego said:

I am not expecting him to be Messi, but he did not play very well today. Anyone who thinks he does should raise their expectations.

Yes, he did some nice things, and yes, his teammates are not playing well, but that doesn't absolve him. We have become such David apologists that we give him points for being in place for a potential rebound from a goal and don't mention that his poor pass led to the first goal from Angers (after a great bit of defending from him, to be fair).

To be clear, I generally agree that David is not set up to succeed with how Lille line him up and their style of play. But that does not mean that he is playing to the best of his abilities.

It wasn't a poor pass. He played it right to his teammate and continued his run to receive the return ball. It's not his fault that the teammate stood like a statue while an opponent walked in and stole possession. It's also not David's fault that his other teammate shanked the clearance to an opposition player standing by himself at the top of the 'D', nor that 3 defenders let him shoot cleanly and that the 'keeper decided not to move his feet and even attempt a save.

Frankly, Lille is a shit team. They have managed to have an unbelievable first half of the season in both the league and Europe for the standard of their players. Unfortunately for them, the solid defence has slipped a bit and teams are wising up to their 'let the two idiots dribble all day' attack by clogging up the middle in the defensive third. I can't see them finishing in the top 3 in the league at the end of the season and they'll likely lose to Ajax in the next round of the Europa League.

David hasn't been anything like in his best form. He can certainly, and must, do better in certain situation. However, he's still one of only 3 players in that team (not including Yilmaz and Font, who are too old for an upward move at this point) that might be of interest to any half-decent manager in the Big 5 leagues.

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27 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

It wasn't a poor pass. He played it right to his teammate and continued his run to receive the return ball. It's not his fault that the teammate stood like a statue while an opponent walked in and stole possession. It's also not David's fault that his other teammate shanked the clearance to an opposition player standing by himself at the top of the 'D', nor that 3 defenders let him shoot cleanly and that the 'keeper decided not to move his feet and even attempt a save.

Frankly, Lille is a shit team. They have managed to have an unbelievable first half of the season in both the league and Europe for the standard of their players. Unfortunately for them, the solid defence has slipped a bit and teams are wising up to their 'let the two idiots dribble all day' attack by clogging up the middle in the defensive third. I can't see them finishing in the top 3 in the league at the end of the season and they'll likely lose to Ajax in the next round of the Europa League.

David hasn't been anything like in his best form. He can certainly, and must, do better in certain situation. However, he's still one of only 3 players in that team (not including Yilmaz and Font, who are too old for an upward move at this point) that might be of interest to any half-decent manager in the Big 5 leagues.

They are taking up those positions by design. If you're looking for someone to blame for that, look at the manager.

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2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

I don't understand what you mean here.

When building up an attack, Lille's fullbacks are expected to take up position high and wide. They essentially take up the position of where the wingers would typically be. The wingers (usually Bamba and Ikone) don't stay wide, they come inside and take up a central position. The intention is for the center backs to either a) split the lines and find Bamba/Ikone inside, or b) play an angled pass to the fullbacks high and wide. This is how they typically get into the middle third. Most importantly, this is why Ikone and Bamba get so much of the ball.

This is an intentional patterns of play. There was an article I read at the beginning of the season that goes into detail about it. It was actually describing their play from the 19-20 season, but seemingly nothing has changed, and why should it? Lille are having a good season. The article is somewhere way back in this thread.

Once I read that it made much more sense to me why David doesn't find the ball in this system. It is not designed for him to get on the ball and make plays, it is designed for him (or Yilmaz) to finish off plays.

The problem is that while David is a cool finish (usually), his strength is not getting onto crosses and converting them. I mean, he can do that in Belgium, but French defenders are more astute and athletic. It takes a Yilmaz type of player to get onto a cross, unless it is excellent. That's partly why he's been successful. If you look at Oshimen's highlights he scored the same kind of goals that Yilmaz does. Like Yilmaz, he is bigger and stronger and lankier than David, who simply can't get onto passes into the box, unless they are inch perfect (and they are not). Yilmaz gets onto things he sometimes shouldn't because of his attributes and his timing (he's very experienced). He is built for this system. David is not. However, David is also a long-term play (5 year deal) and perhaps we'll see Lille change their style of play to make David the central figure getting on the ball and playmaking. Again, not holding my breath on that. They repeatedly have said he's an Oshimen replacement, despite being a different kind of forward entirely. I hope they were being trivial with the comparison, because they really are different players.

More to your comment though: Ikone and Bamba often receive a line splitting pass in a central position, and then proceed to dribble their way out of it when things are tight. They have the ability to dribble out of it, and often do, but they also turn over the ball here as well, especially when the defending team packs the midfield and makes it too tight for them to collect on the half turn and wiggle away. 

 

Edited by Obinna
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3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

When building up an attack, Lille's fullbacks are expected to take up position high and wide. They essentially take up the position of where the wingers would typically be. The wingers (usually Bamba and Ikone) don't stay wide, they come inside and take up a central position. The intention is for the center backs to either a) split the lines and find Bamba/Ikone inside, or b) play an angled pass to the high fullbacks. This is how they typically get into the middle third. Most importantly, this is why Ikone and Bamba get so much of the ball. These appear to be intentional patterns of play.

There was an article I read at the beginning of the season that goes into detail about it. It was actually describing their play from the 19-20 season, but seemingly nothing has changed, and why should it? Lille are having a good season. The article is somewhere way back in this thread.

Once I read that it made much more sense to me why David doesn't find the ball in this system. It is not designed for him to get on the ball and make plays, it is designed for him (or Yilmaz) to finish off plays.

The problem is that while David is a cool finish (usually), his strength is not getting onto crosses and converting them. I mean, he can do that if he is afforded the time and space he was in Belgium, but French defenders are more astute and athletic. It takes a Yilmaz type of player to get onto them. That's partly why he's been successful. If you look at Oshimen's highlights he scored the same kind of goals that Yilmaz does. Like Yilmaz, he is bigger and stronger and lankier than David, who simply can't get onto passes into the box, unless they are inch perfect (and they are not). Yilmaz gets onto things he sometimes shouldn't because of his attributes and his timing (he's very experienced). He is built for this system. David is not. However, David is also a long-term play (5 year deal) and perhaps we'll see Lille change their style of play to make David the central figure getting on the ball and playmaking. Again, not holding my breath on that. They repeatedly have said he's an Oshimen replacement, despite being a different kind of forward entirely. I hope they were being trivial with the comparison, because they really are different players.

That's all very interesting, but it does nothing to address my point that we're increasingly seeing opposition countering Lille's attacking patterns of play by clogging up the centre of the pitch and inviting Ikone and Bamba to dribble into the impenetrable forest of bodies. 

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Just now, SthMelbRed said:

That's all very interesting, but it does nothing to address my point that we're increasingly seeing opposition countering Lille's attacking patterns of play by clogging up the centre of the pitch and inviting Ikone and Bamba to dribble into the impenetrable forest of bodies. 

I made an edit to address that. For sure that is happening. Do you blame Bamba/Ikone or the coach? To me that is down to the coach needing to make adjustments. Spoiler alert: he doesn't.

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Just now, Obinna said:

I made an edit to address that. For sure that is happening. Do you blame Bamba/Ikone or the coach? To me that is down to the coach needing to make adjustments. Spoiler alert: he doesn't.

Yes. It's obvious that Lille will need an effective Plan B if they want to be anything more than a top 4-8 team in Ligue Un. The best ways to break down a low block defense is through short, quick passing moves or through pinpoint crosses onto the heads of giant strikers. Lille doesn't have the tools for the second option, so they'll have to work on the first one, at some point. If they do, David will quickly become their most important player.

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9 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

Yes. It's obvious that Lille will need an effective Plan B if they want to be anything more than a top 4-8 team in Ligue Un. The best ways to break down a low block defense is through short, quick passing moves or through pinpoint crosses onto the heads of giant strikers. Lille doesn't have the tools for the second option, so they'll have to work on the first one, at some point. If they do, David will quickly become their most important player.

I am not sure they have the tools for either option, but more importantly Gatier is not going to change the way his team are playing this deep into the season. I just don't see it.

On the broadcast they said the training focus during the break was defensive set pieces. How did the other team score today? The winter break was the time to work on that sort of stuff. I don't think it is a priority for him though, especially when he doesn't really have the type of players who can pick the right pass. It's like a chicken and egg, right?

Gatier might be a good coach, but I don't think he's a flexible coach. At least based on the little I have seen. 

Edited by Obinna
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1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I am not sure they have the tools for either option, but more importantly Gatier is not going to change the way his team are playing this deep into the season. I just don't see it.

On the broadcast they said the training focus during the break was defensive set pieces. How did the other team score today? The winter break was the time to work on that sort of stuff. I don't think it is a priority for him though, especially when he doesn't really have the type of players who can pick the right pass. It's like a chicken and egg, right?

Gatier might be a good coach, but I don't think he's a flexible coach. At least based on the little I have seen. 

That's largely the reason why I'm pessimistic about Lille actually achieving anything this season. If they can hang onto a Champions League place, even if it involves a qualifying round, it'll be a massive success for what is, truthfully, a painfully average side.

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14 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

It wasn't a poor pass. He played it right to his teammate and continued his run to receive the return ball. It's not his fault that the teammate stood like a statue while an opponent walked in and stole possession. It's also not David's fault that his other teammate shanked the clearance to an opposition player standing by himself at the top of the 'D', nor that 3 defenders let him shoot cleanly and that the 'keeper decided not to move his feet and even attempt a save.

Frankly, Lille is a shit team. They have managed to have an unbelievable first half of the season in both the league and Europe for the standard of their players. Unfortunately for them, the solid defence has slipped a bit and teams are wising up to their 'let the two idiots dribble all day' attack by clogging up the middle in the defensive third. I can't see them finishing in the top 3 in the league at the end of the season and they'll likely lose to Ajax in the next round of the Europa League.

David hasn't been anything like in his best form. He can certainly, and must, do better in certain situation. However, he's still one of only 3 players in that team (not including Yilmaz and Font, who are too old for an upward move at this point) that might be of interest to any half-decent manager in the Big 5 leagues.

I agree that Andre should have come to the ball, but I think that is true and also that David's pass being poor is true. To borrow terminology from curling, in that position his tolerance must have been heavy, but it was too light. Of course David had nothing to do with subsequent errors, no one is suggesting that.

In the grand scheme of things I don't use that play to assess David's overall performance, but I just wanted to highlight that people seem to be glossing over any mistakes he makes in favour of any perceived positive action. Look, I fully agree that this Lille team is poorly set up, boring, disjointed, and lucky to be where they are in the table. But the focus on slagging off every player except David when they make a mistake is getting a bit weird.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Did anyone watch after he subbed off? How as the attack, any better? Weah?

I half watched after he went off. Weah initially went to right wing (Ikone went forward) and eventually went to right back after Lihadji came on. Game got a bit odd as Lille pushed forward, centre backs making forward runs etc. 

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Just finished watching.  As always some thoughts.

Half time could not come quick enough for Lille.  Looked more foggy than usual out there.  Guess the lads felt they needed an extra day of holiday this year.  2020 was rough!

Coming into a squishy part of the schedule for Lille.  Right now I don't really know if that actually helps them in the long run or not but should provide a bit of relief for the next week or so.

I can't imagine where Lille would be at this point without Yilmaz. 

Think that's the 1st match I've seen where Botman was really put to it.  (BTW, he's the 1st player I'd take from Lille in an expansion draft IF he was left unprotected).  

I'm convinced more than ever that Lille is just sort of making it all up as they go along.

And lastly, I think it would be in Lille's best interest, given their financial situation, that they loan out David to a suitable club elsewhere just for the salary relief.   They aren't getting a reasonable return on his wages and I expect probably won't at any time in the immediate future. Very much doubt they'd hurt Jonathan's feeling if they did.   

 

 

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