Should Christine Sinclair retire from the CWNT?

[Robert]

On the topic of retirement, if the Canadian women's roster includes the same players that got minutes against the U.S.A., last October 17th, the team average will be 26.5 years by the time we face the Netherlands on June 20th. An experienced squad for women's standards today. This will more than likely be final World Cup for the five senior players on the team.

36 - Sinclair

35 - Matheson

32 - Labbe

30 - Chapman

30 - Schmidt

26 - Zadorsky

26 - Leon

24 - Beckie

24 - Lawrence

24 - Prince

23 - Buchanan

23 - Quinn

21 - Fleming

18 - Huitema

[tc-in-bc]

Christine Sinclair gave an interview to TSN ( September 2018 )  which revealed  that she still harbours ambitions  for winning an Olympic gold medal ( which implies the  2020 Tokyo Summer Olympics ) as well as winning the WWC.  If true ,then Christine Sinclair will probably not  be retiring shortly after the 2019 WWC France.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7aoOJiojeY

In addition, someone playing this well for both club and country could conceivably finish this cycle and then play for another cycle after that. At the end of the 2018 NWSL season , Sinclair was tied for fourth in in goals , tied for second in assists , and was one of the league's minute leaders.  The same with Canada, Sinclair was the team's top scorer  and a top minutes  leader as well.

To me, Christine Sinclair will break Abby Wambach's record next year ( 2019 ) but hypothetically if she doesn't I don't think it's a catastrophe. I think Christine Sinclair has a few more quality years in her and will at some point inevitably break Wambach's record and then add to it ( perhaps substantially ).

Finally,  if people knew how thin Canada's talent pool really was ( relative to other top nations )  then they would  not  be in such a hurry to see Christine Sinclair retire. For Canada's sake,  it may be necessary for Christine Sinclair to play for Canada into her early 40s.

Edited December 18, 2018 by tc-in-bc
punctuation

[Vic]

I love the "punctuation" bit, I usually go "typo".

Old players never die, the mental compete lasts to the grave. I think every 80yr old thinks given enough drugs they can still lace up the boots and get it done.

The physical side is the grim reaper though. The question for all aging players is can their body get there. Age creeps up pretty quickly in the mid to late 30s. And doing well in the NWSL and doing well in the World Cup once you get out of group are different things. That's not just age-related either, there are players who can compete successfully at say a league level but can't elevate their game to international knockout level. Negotiating decisions like that head-on is what sets master coaches apart from the crowded lot of journeymen.

The EURO showed women's soccer has hit a level where anyone who has selected and managed and shepherded technically and spiritually and configured properly and everything dialed in can go right to the finish. The audacity of the Dutch, the Danes and the Austrians are a refreshing herald of the new world order and a warning to expect the unexpected. Which is great for women's soccer which has traditionally been the usual suspects.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Vic
typo

[Robert]

Okay, here's some hope for all you "Seniors" out there.

Brazil's Formiga holds the record for being the oldest woman to score a goal at a World Cup Final tournament. She was 37 years and 98 days old when she put one in the old onion bag against South Korea, in Montreal, on June 9, 2015.

So if Christine wants to break that record, she will have to keep playing at least until the 2023 World Cup Final.

And if she wants the all-time record for women or men, she'll have to keep going till at least the 2027 World Cup Final to break Roger Milla's record:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/stats-oldest-goal-scorers-world-cup-football

Stats: List of oldest goal-scorers in World Cup

Roger Milla

Cameroon’s legendary striker Roger Milla leads the chart of oldest goal-scorers in World Cup. He scored a World Cup goal at the age of 43 years 49 days. A list of oldest goal-scorers in World Cup is given below.

Milla appeared in 5 World Cups starting from 1978. 1994 World Cup was his last one, where he became the oldest player to play as well as score in a world cup.

A list of oldest goal-scorers in World Cups is given below.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Robert

[Vic]

Been reading from unbiased people in other countries that she can't keep up on the field, they were suggesting late sub.

90-120 minutes is a long time, especially if you're playing a strict system. Impressions from people who've been watching?

For the goals record, Wambach wasn't the PK taker for the Americans to round out her career. Does Sinclair stick around to bag PK's and play minnows and pad her stats?

[carolynduthie]

21 minutes ago, Vic said:

Been reading from unbiased people in other countries that she can't keep up on the field, they were suggesting late sub.

90-120 minutes is a long time, especially if you're playing a strict system. Impressions from people who've been watching?

For the goals record, Wambach wasn't the PK taker for the Americans to round out her career. Does Sinclair stick around to bag PK's and play minnows and pad her stats?

They've been playing a 3-5-2 with Sinclair as one of the top 2, which I don't think is really the best place for her now, it does seem like she (or most people tbh) can't keep up the pressure on opponents for the whole game. In Portland they play her more withdrawn, kind of behind the forward line, and she looks much better there. 

[Binky]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:01 AM, Vic said:

Been reading from unbiased people in other countries that she can't keep up on the field, they were suggesting late sub.

90-120 minutes is a long time, especially if you're playing a strict system. Impressions from people who've been watching?

For the goals record, Wambach wasn't the PK taker for the Americans to round out her career. Does Sinclair stick around to bag PK's and play minnows and pad her stats?

https://www.timbers.com/post/2019/06/26/thorns-elizabeth-ball-gabby-seiler-world-cup-knockouts-ep-7-world-cup-podcast

 

[Binky]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:01 AM, Vic said:

Been reading from unbiased people in other countries that she can't keep up on the field, they were suggesting late sub.

90-120 minutes is a long time, especially if you're playing a strict system. Impressions from people who've been watching?

For the goals record, Wambach wasn't the PK taker for the Americans to round out her career. Does Sinclair stick around to bag PK's and play minnows and pad her stats?

I agree with those "unbiased" sources. IMO, Kenneth Heiner-Moller did not get the maximum effective use out of each of his players. Your comparison with Abby Wambach is a good example of that. Abby turned 35 years old at the 2015 World Cup, roughly the same age as Christine, who turned 36 at this year's tournament. Ironically, both power-forwards were born in the month of June, the 13th and 2nd respectively.

How did Jill Ellis utilize Wambach at the World Cup in Canada:

vs. Australia  - starter, played the whole match.

vs. Sweden - came on as a substitute in the 67th min.

vs. Nigeria - starter, played the whole match, scored 1 goal.

vs. Columbia - starter, came off in the 69th min., scored 1 goal, a penalty.

vs. China - came on as a substitute in the 86th min.

vs. Germany - came on as a substitute in the 80th min.

vs. Japan - came on as a substitute in the 79th min.

Ellis had Wambach playing a total of 297 minutes over the course of 7 matches.

KHM had Sinclair playing a total of 338 minutes over the course of 4 matches.

A 36 year old playing that many World Cup minutes over the span of 14 days! No wonder that the engine of the Canadian team was running on empty during the last two matches.

Was it an experienced coaching decision to start the 36-year old Sinclair in every match, especially against the opponents the likes of youthful Dutch and Swedish squads? Didn't the fact that Christine chose to sit out practices in France, because as she herself put it, "being on the wrong side of 30," give KHM somewhat of a clue? If either Jordyn Huitema or Adriana Leon had been utilized as starters during the tournament, with Christine coming on as a second half substitute, then Canada would right now be preparing to face Germany on Saturday for a place in the semi-finals. What a shame!

What we need is a qualified Canadian woman to coach the CWNT. And there may soon be one available in Burnaby.

[Patrick]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:01 AM, Vic said:

For the goals record, Wambach wasn't the PK taker for the Americans to round out her career. Does Sinclair stick around to bag PK's and play minnows and pad her stats?

If Wambach didn't take penalties she definitely played for a much better team and with a stronger supporting cast.  Canada has always been a low scoring team so a straight comparison of Sinclair to Wambach is apples and oranges.  The two have played a similar number of games, Sinclair 286 (and counting), Wambach 254, so I think the fact Sinclair is even close to the record says all we need to know as to who is the better goal scorer.  As for minnows and penalties to round out her career, I'm fine with that just so long as she erases Wambach's name from the record books.  The comparisons on the field makes the two look similar, but Sinclair is miles ahead in class and sportsmanship.  I feel dirty mentioning Wambach's name in the same sentence as Sinclair, honestly.

[Patrick]

14 hours ago, Binky said:

What we need is a qualified Canadian woman to coach the CWNT. And there may soon be one available in Burnaby. 

Why on earth would we need a Canadian or a woman to coach?  If the best person for the job is Canadian, great!  If it's a woman, that's great, too!  But I think we need the best coach, period.  Our experiment with a female coach ended badly, and the Americans are not happy with Jill Ellis.  The English, however, are doing just fine under Phil Neville.

As for Sinclair coaching, sure, if she's actually a good coach.  We shouldn't just hand her the job because she was a good player.

[AvroArrow]

15 hours ago, Binky said:

I agree with those "unbiased" sources. IMO, Kenneth Heiner-Moller did not get the maximum effective use out of each of his players. Your comparison with Abby Wambach is a good example of that. Abby turned 35 years old at the 2015 World Cup, roughly the same age as Christine, who turned 36 at this year's tournament. Ironically, both power-forwards were born in the month of June, the 13th and 2nd respectively.

How did Jill Ellis utilize Wambach at the World Cup in Canada:

vs. Australia  - starter, played the whole match.

vs. Sweden - came on as a substitute in the 67th min.

vs. Nigeria - starter, played the whole match, scored 1 goal.

vs. Columbia - starter, came off in the 69th min., scored 1 goal, a penalty.

vs. China - came on as a substitute in the 86th min.

vs. Germany - came on as a substitute in the 80th min.

vs. Japan - came on as a substitute in the 79th min.

Ellis had Wambach playing a total of 297 minutes over the course of 7 matches.

KHM had Sinclair playing a total of 338 minutes over the course of 4 matches.

A 36 year old playing that many World Cup minutes over the span of 14 days! No wonder that the engine of the Canadian team was running on empty during the last two matches.

Was it an experienced coaching decision to start the 36-year old Sinclair in every match, especially against the opponents the likes of youthful Dutch and Swedish squads? Didn't the fact that Christine chose to sit out practices in France, because as she herself put it, "being on the wrong side of 30," give KHM somewhat of a clue? If either Jordyn Huitema or Adriana Leon had been utilized as starters during the tournament, with Christine coming on as a second half substitute, then Canada would right now be preparing to face Germany on Saturday for a place in the semi-finals. What a shame!

What we need is a qualified Canadian woman to coach the CWNT. And there may soon be one available in Burnaby.

I can find a number of national team coaches that have made poor decisions that are female or Canadian.  Don't know if I've seen one that is both female and Canadian, but I'm sure there are some out there.  Don't sell yourself short! 

Edited June 28, 2019 by AvroArrow

[Binky]

20 hours ago, Patrick said:

Why on earth would we need a Canadian or a woman to coach?  If the best person for the job is Canadian, great!  If it's a woman, that's great, too!  But I think we need the best coach, period.  Our experiment with a female coach ended badly, and the Americans are not happy with Jill Ellis.  The English, however, are doing just fine under Phil Neville.

As for Sinclair coaching, sure, if she's actually a good coach.  We shouldn't just hand her the job because she was a good player.

I disagree. According to your line of reasoning, men make better coaches than women, as I am unaware of any woman being the coach of a senior men's national team. Yet, when it comes to the most successful teams at this year's World Cup in France, five of the 8 quarter-finalists have a woman in charge:

Jill Ellis - USA

Corinne Diacre - France 

Milena Bertolini - Italy

Sarina Wiegman - Netherlands

Martina Voss-Tecklenburg - Germany

With these five, I like the chances of the country winning this year's championship having a coach who is a women!

[Admin]

2 hours ago, Binky said:

I disagree. According to your line of reasoning, men make better coaches than women, 

That is not what he said or meant. 

[AvroArrow]

5 hours ago, Binky said:

I disagree. According to your line of reasoning, men make better coaches than women, as I am unaware of any woman being the coach of a senior men's national team. Yet, when it comes to the most successful teams at this year's World Cup in France, five of the 8 quarter-finalists have a woman in charge:

Jill Ellis - USA

Corinne Diacre - France 

Milena Bertolini - Italy

Sarina Wiegman - Netherlands

Martina Voss-Tecklenburg - Germany

With these five, I like the chances of the country winning this year's championship having a coach who is a women!

100% of those coaches have the letter "i" in their first names.  I think we found the secret ingredient when it comes to coaching.

[Binky]

3 hours ago, AvroArrow said:

100% of those coaches have the letter "i" in their first names.  I think we found the secret ingredient when it comes to coaching.

Bang on! You get exactly what I mean. Christine Sinclair has 4 "i"s in her name. It just doesn't get any clearer then that, does it?😊

Anyhow, to answer the question posed, which was: Should Christine Sinclair retire from the CWNT? I say a definite NO! As soon as Sinclair hangs up her cleats she should immediately be approached by the CSA to coach the CWNT. With all of C.S.'s experience with the CWNT, who could possibly be more qualified to coach the CWNT? Who knows all the current CWNT players better than C.S.? Who knows all the current players of other national teams better than C.S.? Who in women's soccer is more respected than C.S.? If you answered Kenneth Heiner-Moller to any of the above, then you seriously need to get your head examined.

[Admin]

3 minutes ago, Binky said:

Bang on! You get exactly what I mean. Christine Sinclair has 4 "i"s in her name. It just doesn't get any clearer then that, does it?😊

Anyhow, to answer the question posed, which was: Should Christine Sinclair retire from the CWNT? I say a definite NO! As soon as Sinclair hangs up her cleats she should immediately be approached by the CSA to coach the CWNT. With all of C.S.'s experience with the CWNT, who could possibly be more qualified to coach the CWNT? Who knows all the current CWNT players better than C.S.? Who knows all the current players of other national teams better than C.S.? Who in women's soccer is more respected than C.S.? If you answered Kenneth Heiner-Moller to any of the above, then you seriously need to get your head examined.

Has there been many examples of ex players getting the express lane to the coaching job working out?

Does she want to coach? If she wants to be a coach, then I think she should take the path to get there.  Our previous experiments with this process didn't work out very well. 

Herdman was a direct result of the women asking for the best coach they could get no matter who it was.  Sinclair might make an amazing coach but dropping her into that role tomorrow doesn't fit the bill of what the players asked for. 

 

[Binky]

16 minutes ago, admin said:

Has there been many examples of ex players getting the express lane to the coaching job working out?

Does she want to coach? If she wants to be a coach, then I think she should take the path to get there.  Our previous experiments with this process didn't work out very well. 

Herdman was a direct result of the women asking for the best coach they could get no matter who it was.  Sinclair might make an amazing coach but dropping her into that role tomorrow doesn't fit the bill of what the players asked for. 

 

FYI, to list but a few examples of player/coach:

1) Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool)

2) Graeme Souness (Rangers)

3) Glenn Hoddle (Swindon Town and Chelsea)

4) Bryan Robson (Middlesbrough)

5) Peter Reid (Manchester City)

6) Ruud Gullit (Chelsea)

7) Gianluca Vialli (Chelsea)

😎 Ryan Giggs (Manchester United)

It doesn't matter what Christine Sinclair wants. It her duty as a Canadian. That is going to be Christine's path. After all, she bleeds Maple Leafs, eh! Really! Take my word for it. I've seen it!!!😊

She is not going to hang up her cleats tomorrow, but it's not too far off. So if hiring a coach for the CWNT is really an experiment as a couple on this thread have claimed, would it not make for an interesting experiment to have Christine fill the role of player/coach for the upcoming Olympic qualifying campaign? Did the players really want Herdman to bail on them because they wanted to ask for Kenneth Heiner-Moller to coach them?

CHRISTINE SINCLAIR BLEEDS MAPLE LEAFS!!!

[Blackdude]

 

32 minutes ago, Binky said:

Who knows all the current players of other national teams better than C.S.?  If you answered Kenneth Heiner-Moller to any of the above, then you seriously need to get your head examined.

I need to get my head examined then. I still think that Sinclair managing this team and or being a playing manager instantly is a terrible idea. She has enough on her plate to think about as a player that it would be even worse to ask her to do both. I don't think Sinclair would be a good fit maybe it's her personality that makes me think that she's more of an assistant then a coach.I don't mind ginving Sinclair an interview, but handing her the reins would be bad. Wilkinson is a much better choice than Sinclair. 

[Binky]

6 minutes ago, Lofty said:

Unfortunately, so far as I can remember none of those people ever won anything as coaches, with the possible exception of Souness at Rangers where we all know it is only a two horse race to begin with.

Okay. How about Franz Beckenbauer? He played his last professional soccer match on September 12, 1983.

A few months after his last match, Franz was appointed manager of West Germany, position he would hold for the next six years.

[Admin]

I think we are in a different era. 

Coaching is way more professional now. 

I appreciate the enthusiasm for Sinclair, I hope she wants to coach and can.  But she has to prove she can coach before taking the reigns.

 

[Binky]

3 hours ago, admin said:

I think we are in a different era. 

Coaching is way more professional now. 

I appreciate the enthusiasm for Sinclair, I hope she wants to coach and can.  But she has to prove she can coach before taking the reigns.

 

Do Didier Deschamps (Valencia 2001 as a player - Monaco 2001 as a coach) and Zinedine Zidane (Real Madrid 2006 as a player - Real Madrid 2014 as a coach) qualify as being current, professional, and successful enough for you? Very special players have earned and deserve the right to be fast-tracked as coaches. For me, the real question that needs to be asked is: Does the CSA smart enough to recognize how blessed they are to have such a very special player?  Yes, IMHO Christine Sinclair is right up there with the Deschamps, Zidanes, and Beckenbauers of the world. All relatively calm, cool and collective individuals, very unlike the screaming, bold-predicting, and embarrassing likes of the Herdmans and Heiner-Mollers that we are currently stuck with.

[Blackdude]

National team player-managers don't exist for one reason: it's a national team, not a club. It's still a job that requires you to follow players around the world and make selections based on what you see. I don't think that Sinclair could do that if she still plays for Portland. There's a reason no one has done both jobs at the same time, because it's impossible to do. At a club, you can do that, because you still see the players daily and can still be focussed on your game and on the club's game, at the national team levels, you see the players for 2 months per year, so you need to talk to them during the season to know what's happening and evaluate your players. I just don't think that someone like Sinclair even if she surrounds herself with a ton of talent could win with those.

[Kent]

On 6/28/2019 at 11:10 AM, Patrick said:

Why on earth would we need a Canadian or a woman to coach?  If the best person for the job is Canadian, great!  If it's a woman, that's great, too!  But I think we need the best coach, period.  Our experiment with a female coach ended badly, and the Americans are not happy with Jill Ellis.  The English, however, are doing just fine under Phil Neville.

As for Sinclair coaching, sure, if she's actually a good coach.  We shouldn't just hand her the job because she was a good player.

I agree with your sentiment until the bolded part. We have had 4 men coaches and 2 women coaches. We shoudn't think of women coaches as experiments and men coaches as the real option (that's what is implied when hiring a woman coach is an experiment). Just because Carolina Morace didn't work out doesn't mean another woman coach can't do the job.

Again, I agree with your second paragraph. Coaches shouldn't be picked based on how well they can kick a ball. If she gets into coaching, great, she can try to work her way to the job.

[Patrick]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

We shoudn't think of women coaches as experiments and men coaches as the real option (that's what is implied when hiring a woman coach is an experiment). Just because Carolina Morace didn't work out doesn't mean another woman coach can't do the job.

I didn't say women coaches were experiments, so please don't shove your words in my mouth.  What I said was Carolina Morace was an experiment.  As for the pre-Pellerud coaches, I don't count the part-timers.  That was an embarrassment that the CSA finally corrected.  The CSA may have said Morace was the best available coach, but what they meant was she was the best available female coach.  For some reason we keep circling back to some "need" to have a woman coach instead of the best coach.  When Herdman quit there was talk about aiming to have a woman in charge by 2021.  Why?  Why is it so important to have ovaries if you coach women?  

Morace was a disaster and her history before signing with Canada clearly showed she was tough to work with and self-centred.  She quit once, came back, and then shit the bed in Germany.  She quit in spirit before the last game was played and quit for real when her performance was being evaluated.   Thankfully we didn't demand Herdman cut his nuts off in order to coach Canada.

What I hope we don't do is what Germany did in hiring Martina Voss-Tecklenburg.  If you try to tell me she was the best coach available in Germany then I have some real-estate in Florida you should look at.  Her coaching resume is Ok, but hardly outstanding, and her main claim to fame is being an ex-player.   And is Jill Ellis really the best coach the US could find to lead the #1 team in the world?  Her decisions so far indicate she's not very good, it's just fortunate she has more talent available than any three other national teams combined.

Going forward, whatever happens with Heiner-Moller, I hope the next coach is the best we can attract and afford.  If it happens to be a woman, I will be more than happy to support her.  

[Binky]

13 minutes ago, Patrick said:

I didn't say women coaches were experiments, so please don't shove your words in my mouth.  What I said was Carolina Morace was an experiment.  As for the pre-Pellerud coaches, I don't count the part-timers.  That was an embarrassment that the CSA finally corrected.  The CSA may have said Morace was the best available coach, but what they meant was she was the best available female coach.  For some reason we keep circling back to some "need" to have a woman coach instead of the best coach.  When Herdman quit there was talk about aiming to have a woman in charge by 2021.  Why?  Why is it so important to have ovaries if you coach women?  

Morace was a disaster and her history before signing with Canada clearly showed she was tough to work with and self-centred.  She quit once, came back, and then **** the bed in Germany.  She quit in spirit before the last game was played and quit for real when her performance was being evaluated.   Thankfully we didn't demand Herdman cut his nuts off in order to coach Canada.

What I hope we don't do is what Germany did in hiring Martina Voss-Tecklenburg.  If you try to tell me she was the best coach available in Germany then I have some real-estate in Florida you should look at.  Her coaching resume is Ok, but hardly outstanding, and her main claim to fame is being an ex-player.   And is Jill Ellis really the best coach the US could find to lead the #1 team in the world?  Her decisions so far indicate she's not very good, it's just fortunate she has more talent available than any three other national teams combined.

Going forward, whatever happens with Heiner-Moller, I hope the next coach is the best we can attract and afford.  If it happens to be a woman, I will be more than happy to support her.  

Please reread your words carefully and try to imagine how a woman would feel and react to them?

Edited June 30, 2019 by Binky