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8 minutes ago, Acid-Tone said:

Wrong!  The top Canadian basketball players are becoming great players before they even get to the NCAA!   The grassroots development that is taking place in the GTA is on par with the very best in the US or the world.  Obviously, the NCAA helps, but the best players only spend one season there anyways.

Just over the past few seasons there's been 2 kids who were considered the very best players in their incoming NCAA class, Andrew Wiggins and RJ Barrett.  Though they finished their high school careers at american prep schools, they were definitely developed in Canada.

Basketball has two valid developmental systems. In the US, and now Canada, the college system develops players. Not high schools, of every 100 promising top high schoolers maybe less than 5% make the NBA. In the rest of the world players play for the youth teams of professional clubs, and work their way up, EXACTLY the same as in soccer, no difference. Those are the two possible ways to develop talent in basketball. 

In soccer there is only one way to develop talent. US college is not one of them. Coming up through a competitive club system is it, there is no other way. When you are a teen, you need to be streamed into a club youth team, and in late teens, maybe have a shot at first team minutes. That is way easier if you have your own league, which is good for whatever level it has. If a player is already too good for it by 16, they can do exactly what a kid from any country, with any level league, has to do now: seek out a better club or be recruited by one.

This is why having a league is essential, with the more clubs the better, and setting up authentic pro-releg high performance leagues for youth. It is key for player development before reaching the age a kid can comfortably be away from home.

The idea we have in Canada to set up training centres is bogus, since it is meaningless unless they are playing competitively, to win, and testing what they have learnt in an authentic way. In Canada we have private academies vending false promises to parents who are overpaying, for the sole purpose of enabling salaries for retired players and others running them. But these academies have a vested interest in not letting parents, or kids, ever really know if they are good are not, if their systems are working. That would encroach on their financial model.

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1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

The moment De Vos's title and role were announced it pretty much made Fonseca's  job within the organization redundant.  I can't remember how long after this that he left the program but I am guessing that it was long enough to serve out his contract and tie up loose ends and create transitions.

With Zambrano, I'm not clear on this point:  was his contract terminated by mutual consent or are they paying out the remainder of his deal? 

Thankfully he was on only a two year deal. I've not seen mutual consent mentioned. Elsewhere somebody complained that we were now paying off both Floro and OZ. Fortunately this is not true as Floro's contract was up. 

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14 hours ago, Ruffian said:

This statement is wrong. Recently we have had some of the top recruits going into the NCAA and that has a lot to do with the improvement of Canada Basketball's development pathway.

Yeah, I was going to ask that question. "What does Canada Basketball do to help talented kids get into the NCAA?" We all know that many of the top US prospects are actually first developed in amazing high school basketball programs. So what does Canada Basketball do to get our highschoolers ready for the NCAA? (Or, in some cases, do they even help some of our kids get into good US high schools?)

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There are many more not-so-good US high school programs than there are "amazing" ones. The Americans are actually wasting a lot of their talent advantage (gained from the inner city playground culture, kind of like Brasilian street soccer) by having kids between the ages of 14-17 stuck in such uncompetitive and fundamentally unsound environments. If the NBA clubs had an academy infrastructure and the top 30-40 kids in each age group in major cities were all playing under the tutelage of some of the top youth coaches in their state then the US would be light years ahead of everyone else.

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I am curious to see IF Herdman will release his strategic plan for the MNT and the youth development programs. Guaranteed he is in the process of building that already. He'll already have a decent sense of what needs to be done, but he'll be conferring with key individuals as he builds the plan, engenders support at all levels--including key players--and assesses the resources available for executing the plan.  I suspect he WILL release a broad-strokes version of the plan, perhaps before spring, though he may want to tease out the broad pillars of his plan much earlier. While much of this plan will be about long term strategy and player development, he MUST address the short term reality of getting results on the field.  We need to hear, fairly early in his tenure, how a Herdman MNT will play.  In truth, he needs to know what he has by way of players and talent BEFORE he can truly figure out the best style to adopt, but if he has been paying attention over the last few years he should already have some ideas.

If the CSA is smart, they'll set up a Herdman press conference very soon so he can start talking about his vision, his plan, not just for development but also for on-field strategy. 

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15 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

I am curious to see IF Herdman will release his strategic plan for the MNT and the youth development programs. Guaranteed he is in the process of building that already. He'll already have a decent sense of what needs to be done, but he'll be conferring with key individuals as he builds the plan, engenders support at all levels--including key players--and assesses the resources available for executing the plan.  I suspect he WILL release a broad-strokes version of the plan, perhaps before spring, though he may want to tease out the broad pillars of his plan much earlier. While much of this plan will be about long term strategy and player development, he MUST address the short term reality of getting results on the field.  We need to hear, fairly early in his tenure, how a Herdman MNT will play.  In truth, he needs to know what he has by way of players and talent BEFORE he can truly figure out the best style to adopt, but if he has been paying attention over the last few years he should already have some ideas.

If the CSA is smart, they'll set up a Herdman press conference very soon so he can start talking about his vision, his plan, not just for development but also for on-field strategy. 

If what people are saying about him are true I would bet he already has a plan and a power point presentation etc with spread sheets, zen diagrams and flow charts.  He wouldnt have had the desire to get into the mens game and be ready to make the switch without having a working plan of what he was going to do if he ever got control of the CMNT.  Its not a new forward thinking strategy but an old one, the TARZAN theory.  Dont let go of one vine until you have the next firmly in your grasp.  

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4 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

If what people are saying about him are true I would bet he already has a plan and a power point presentation etc with spread sheets, zen diagrams and flow charts.  He wouldnt have had the desire to get into the mens game and be ready to make the switch without having a working plan of what he was going to do if he ever got control of the CMNT.  Its not a new forward thinking strategy but an old one, the TARZAN theory.  Dont let go of one vine until you have the next firmly in your grasp.  

He was hired because he will support Jason De Vos plan for a national Youth league and a club classifications system based on standards without Pro rel

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6 minutes ago, reme90 said:

He was hired because he will support Jason De Vos plan for a national Youth league and a club classifications system based on standards without Pro rel

I hope he does a little coaching too.  He could have gotten on the CSA board of directors if thats all he is there for.  

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12 minutes ago, reme90 said:

He was hired because he will support Jason De Vos plan for a national Youth league and a club classifications system based on standards without Pro rel

BINGOOOOOOOOOOO

 

Herdman has and doesn't need a plan as Jason DeVos already has and made somewhat of a plan

 

Jason DeVos was director of Youth Development.I won't be surprised if steps down from that position and becomes a assistant to Herdman,hoping when Herdman gets fire that the CSA will give the CMNT head coaching gig to him (Jason DeVos)

 

Ever since Monday when the news broke out about the CWNT & CMNT coaching change..Jason DeVos is no where to seen or heard of

 

Also for those of you that don't know Jason DeVos was always with Herdman and the CWNT during there training camps/games/World  Cup/Olympic

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Beaver said:

I am curious to see IF Herdman will release his strategic plan for the MNT and the youth development programs. Guaranteed he is in the process of building that already. He'll already have a decent sense of what needs to be done, but he'll be conferring with key individuals as he builds the plan, engenders support at all levels--including key players--and assesses the resources available for executing the plan.  I suspect he WILL release a broad-strokes version of the plan, perhaps before spring, though he may want to tease out the broad pillars of his plan much earlier. While much of this plan will be about long term strategy and player development, he MUST address the short term reality of getting results on the field.  We need to hear, fairly early in his tenure, how a Herdman MNT will play.  In truth, he needs to know what he has by way of players and talent BEFORE he can truly figure out the best style to adopt, but if he has been paying attention over the last few years he should already have some ideas.

If the CSA is smart, they'll set up a Herdman press conference very soon so he can start talking about his vision, his plan, not just for development but also for on-field strategy. 

This is the part of your post I have concerns about, I agree with what you think should be implemented though!

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7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In soccer there is only one way to develop talent. US college is not one of them.

I'd agree that college is very far from ideal, but the NCAA has undoubtedly developed some talent. Geoff Cameron, Carlos Bocanegra and  Clint Dempsey didn't play in an academy at all and they were all better than average EPL players at some point. None even got a USMNT youth call-up until they were in college. Jake Nerwinski only played high school soccer before going to UCONN, and he's a pretty respectable MLS player.

The NCAA is a great pathway for kids who aren't in line for a pro contract at 18. There isn't only one way to develop talent, but there is only one pathway that consistently develops talent. 

Edited by harrycoyster
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2 hours ago, gator said:

This is the part of your post I have concerns about, I agree with what you think should be implemented though!

I hear you! After the recent events I suspect the one thing we can all agree on is that we will all be scrutinizing the CSA—and Herdman—with microscopic attention. For some reason I feel that Herdman will fare better than the CSA. We shall see!

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2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I'd agree that college is very far from ideal, but the NCAA has undoubtedly developed some talent. Geoff Cameron, Carlos Bocanegra and  Clint Dempsey didn't play in an academy at all and they were all better than average EPL players at some point. None even got a USMNT youth call-up until they were in college. Jake Nerwinski only played high school soccer before going to UCONN, and he's a pretty respectable MLS player.

The NCAA is a great pathway for kids who aren't in line for a pro contract at 18. There isn't only one way to develop talent, but there is only one pathway that consistently develops talent. 

I see NCAA as a babysitting system for young adult soccer players. It is not a valid system, , even though a few players come out of it.

When I spoke to my son who has the soccer level about going to NCAA, he simply asked me: if you are going to study a university degree, why not go to the best school possible for that degree? And if you are going to try to be a pro soccer player, why would you go as a freshman and not get playing time in a four-month season, and do that for four years? I think he was dead right. His last year of u-19 was way more competitive than anything in NCAA.

He has now left competitive soccer and is studying engineering in the highest rank program in Spain.

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Y'all just going to ignore what exactly is accurate about these statements:

Zambrano didn't look at things from a monoculture, he didn't tow the line, he had the audacity to ruffle our illustrious & accomplished TD's ?, he played attractive Fútbol, he wanted change, he had ambition, so they did what they have been doing to us Fútbol First, blacklisted

Kicked to the curb, and accused of being disruptive and detrimental. I've heard it before seen it a million times over in club board rooms. It's sickening, but it's why new pathways keep growing, unsanctioned options keep flourishing #CANMNT #CANWNT #Zambrano #HerdmanIn ??

Only in @CanadaSoccerEN can such a disruptive move be made with no explanation to us. You know why? Arrogance, they have the power, and are accountable to no-one. Shame on the media who knew and said nothing. Now watch them vilify those that protest.

 

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55 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I see NCAA as a babysitting system for young adult soccer players. 1) It is not a valid system, , even though a few players come out of it.

When I spoke to my son who has the soccer level about going to NCAA, he simply asked me: 2) if you are going to study a university degree, why not go to the best school possible for that degree? And if you are going to try to be a pro soccer player, 3) why would you go as a freshman and not get playing time in a four-month season, and do that for four years? I think he was dead right. His last year of u-19 was way more competitive than anything in NCAA.

He has now left competitive soccer and is studying engineering in the highest rank program in Spain.

1) I think any system that develops players that would otherwise have nowhere else to play is a valid system. Nowadays, it's far less important, but the "Right To Dream" kids are a great example of its current importance. 

2) There are 2,600 colleges and universities in the US, for all but the highest level of student there are tens of schools that will meet their academic needs AND provide an athletic opportunity. For most, it's not an academic sacrifice.

3) This is a common misnomer. Say what you want about the level of play, but nowadays NCAA players play more soccer in a year than most professional players.

The calendar of an average D1 NCAA player is:

-January to April: 4 hour practices, 5 days a week. ~5 scrimmages with local competition, 1-2 conference showcases. (In my experience, teams play a full inter-squad game at least once a week.)

-May to August: 14-16 game PDL season.

-September to December: 20-25 game NCAA season. 1-2 preseason games. 

Edited by harrycoyster
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On 1/10/2018 at 4:04 PM, paul-collins said:

The point at which the Zaambrano apologists and those who are apoplectic over Herdman's appointment start dragging a defence of Carolina Morace into the discussion, I know I've entered a parallel universe.

Y'all need to sit down and relax for a while.  This hyperventilation isn't getting useful oxygen to your brains.

Let's not be too hard on Morace because after Herdman gets the boot after 11 months she will probably be the CSA's next hire!

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2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

1) I think any system that develops players that would otherwise have nowhere else to play is a valid system. Nowadays, it's far less important, but the "Right To Dream" kids are a great example of its current importance. 

2) There are 2,600 colleges and universities in the US, for all but the highest level of student there are tens of schools that will meet their academic needs AND provide an athletic opportunity. For most, it's not an academic sacrifice.

3) This is a common misnomer. Say what you want about the level of play, but nowadays NCAA players play more soccer in a year than most professional players.

The calendar of an average D1 NCAA player is:

-January to April: 4 hour practices, 5 days a week. ~5 scrimmages with local competition, 1-2 conference showcases. (In my experience, teams play a full inter-squad game at least once a week.)

-May to August: 14-16 game PDL season.

-September to December: 20-25 game NCAA season. 1-2 preseason games. 

Im likely wrong about inactivity, and am glad they train in the early part of the year, but still: the season is very short and only a small % play PDL. And then, as a freshman, you are not going to get playing time with seniors at your side. Lousy way for a 18-19 year old to develop, at a critical moment in a career.

My kid played his last year at u-19 here in Barcelona playing a 30 game season. Plus preseason with 4-5 matches, started late August, season starting mid-September, it is over by May (or June for some regions). In pro-releg, fighting for your life to not drop a division in a modest club where it really mattered. Then, an Easter tournament.

This was with 4 training sessions a week plus game. BTW, a 4 hour practice is totally useless, that is quantity over quality.

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Bring Back OZ! Done wit Jason Devos 

 

 

4 hours ago, CamisaDoce said:

Y'all just going to ignore what exactly is accurate about these statements:

Zambrano didn't look at things from a monoculture, he didn't tow the line, he had the audacity to ruffle our illustrious & accomplished TD's ?, he played attractive Fútbol, he wanted change, he had ambition, so they did what they have been doing to us Fútbol First, blacklisted

Kicked to the curb, and accused of being disruptive and detrimental. I've heard it before seen it a million times over in club board rooms. It's sickening, but it's why new pathways keep growing, unsanctioned options keep flourishing #CANMNT #CANWNT #Zambrano #HerdmanIn ??

Only in @CanadaSoccerEN can such a disruptive move be made with no explanation to us. You know why? Arrogance, they have the power, and are accountable to no-one. Shame on the media who knew and said nothing. Now watch them vilify those that protest.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, yothat said:

 

 

Bring Back OZ! Done wit Jason Devos 

 

 

 

We have a big problem when those in charge refuse to change even when advised so by the experts that they hire.

All the coffee chats is exposed for what they truly are, PR. If a professional coach loses his job for not endorsing the establishment ideas WHAT THE HELL YOU THINK A CHAT OVER COFFEE IS GOING TO DO?

Does your voice matter, no, it certainly does not. This move by CSA is unthinkable in any other federation. It says alot about how arrogant they are and how little they think of us, the supporters.

How many more 10year projects is it going to take before we stop giving them more time and more of our understanding?

We need reform and it won't come without us making noise and voting with our dollars. We need a campaign because I don't have another 10years to give.

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4 minutes ago, CamisaDoce said:

We have a big problem when those in charge refuse to change even when advised so by the experts that they hire.

All the coffee chats is exposed for what they truly are, PR. If a professional coach loses his job for not endorsing the establishment ideas WHAT THE HELL YOU THINK A CHAT OVER COFFEE IS GOING TO DO?

Does your voice matter, no, it certainly does not. This move by CSA is unthinkable in any other federation. It says alot about how arrogant they are and how little they think of us, the supporters.

How many more 10year projects is it going to take before we stop giving them more time and more of our understanding?

We need reform and it won't come without us making noise and voting with our dollars. We need a campaign because I don't have another 10years to give.

No offence but I don't think you'll accomplish much with this. The MNT is probably a breakeven at best.

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