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Zambrano out!


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4 hours ago, 1996 said:

No Sid actually is able to say stuff that our so called soccer journalist don’t have the balls to say or write about, they never ask the hard questions, but according to some on this board everything is ok with the CSA , we have not qualified for the Hex in I forget how many years, we still have not produced top level players like Basketball Canada has , just look at all the Canadians in the NBA, how many Canadians in top soccer leagues in the world or even MLS, but nobody ever asks those questions, when a guy like Sid rants and tells it like it is he is a quack , ya ok whatever , thank God for Sid for telling it like it fucken is!

Canadians in the NBA have benefited from the extremely high quality of the American University system's basketball programs. They have the best already there just waiting to be plucked by the NBA. I'm not putting down Basketball Canada but let's be realistic, the NCAA is the reason!

Their soccer programs are competent but not nearly of the same standard. Good players do come out of the system, some of them very good but it has its limitations which is something MLS has recognized and so is pushing the academies!

The last time we made the Hex was 1998 and we came in last. Our best hex was four years earlier for USA 94. A home win over Mexico would have advanced us directly the finals. We lost 2-1 and went on to face Australia. We lost in PK's. They went on to lose 1 nil to Argentina over two legs on a flukey goal. 

That was our best ever team due in part to the then, recently defunct Canadian Soccer League that gave our best players a stepping stone to Europe and trained a very solid group of domestically based Canadians that made that team as good as it was and yes, it was better than the 86 squad but so was the 82 squad (thanks to the NASL). 

In any case, we need the CPL to do for us what the CSL (the real one, not the charade that goes by that name now) did for us then!

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7 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

Canadians in the NBA have benefited from the extremely high quality of the American University system's basketball programs. They have the best already there just waiting to be plucked by the NBA. I'm not putting down Basketball Canada but let's be realistic, the NCAA is the reason!

This statement is wrong. Recently we have had some of the top recruits going into the NCAA and that has a lot to do with the improvement of Canada Basketball's development pathway.

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Terrific but without the NCAA to take them to the next level, where would they go? Basketball Canada would have to fill the gap! They don't have to do that right now because of the US college system. 

That's what the CPL will do for Canadian soccer, as the original CSL did in the late 80's and early 90's when Pesch, Bunbury, Devos, Hooper, Fenwick and others used the league as the necessary stepping stone to the higher levels of the sport. 

Right now it's our missing link. In 2019, it's existence will begin. 

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2 hours ago, Ruffian said:

This statement is wrong. Recently we have had some of the top recruits going into the NCAA and that has a lot to do with the improvement of Canada Basketball's development pathway.

Agree. The top players are top players, which is why they end up being recruited by first rate NCAA programs. That's credit to Basketball Canada! A few have put in minimal mandatory time in NCAA before entering the draft.

But agree with the broader point @dbailey62 is making on the importance of the domestic league.

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It has very little to do with the Raptors or the Canada Basketball pathway (they abandoned their Residency program based out of McMaster after only two years (?) ). It has everything to do with the AAU pathway created about a decade ago that gives the best 2 dozen players in the GTA time in the summer to train together with top notch coaches and play against the best American youth talent in front of hundreds of NCAA scouts.

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11 hours ago, gator said:

I really don't understand why this is so important for the manager of the National Team, surely at this level all the players who may be worth a look for the team are identified? The coordination of the provincial associations and to a lesser extent youth teams should be left to the Technical Director who should not be the National Team coach IMHO, that's not to say the coach shouldn't have input but he should have enough on his plate without having to sort out under 12 rep teams!

Because he has two jobs.  He is also there to revamp the whole program and is probably the only coach we have ever hired who has experience revamping two of them.  No, those programs were not Holland or Brazil level,  I get that.   He almost certainly knows the 'system' (for want of a better word) in this country better than any coach ever hired.   

It would be funny if his intention all along was to run the Excel program, hire a top level coach and be the assistant.... and we quietly delete this thread.... 

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23 minutes ago, admin said:

It would be funny if his intention all along was to run the Excel program, hire a top level coach and be the assistant.... and we quietly delete this thread.... 

I feel like thats how it should have been done initially anyway..

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37 minutes ago, admin said:

Because he has two jobs.  He is also there to revamp the whole program and is probably the only coach we have ever hired who has experience revamping two of them.  No, those programs were not Holland or Brazil level,  I get that.   He almost certainly knows the 'system' (for want of a better word) in this country better than any coach ever hired.   

It would be funny if his intention all along was to run the Excel program, hire a top level coach and be the assistant.... and we quietly delete this thread.... 

If that's what the head coach does, What does the Technical Director do? What does deVos do?

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Because he has two jobs.  He is also there to revamp the whole program and is probably the only coach we have ever hired who has experience revamping two of them.  No, those programs were not Holland or Brazil level,  I get that.   He almost certainly knows the 'system' (for want of a better word) in this country better than any coach ever hired.   

It would be funny if his intention all along was to run the Excel program, hire a top level coach and be the assistant.... and we quietly delete this thread.... 

Maybe that is part of the problem and as BrennanFan says, what the hell does DeVos do? I would be quite happy with Herdman involved with revamping the whole program but not while he is the MNT coach, myself and many others have serious doubts whether he can do that job on it's own effectively! 

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1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

It has very little to do with the Raptors or the Canada Basketball pathway (they abandoned their Residency program based out of McMaster after only two years (?) ). It has everything to do with the AAU pathway created about a decade ago that gives the best 2 dozen players in the GTA time in the summer to train together with top notch coaches and play against the best American youth talent in front of hundreds of NCAA scouts.

Ehhhh I agree the Raptors are all about inspiration and not about the work

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56 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

If that's what the head coach does, What does the Technical Director do? What does deVos do?

From Wikipedia

"A director of football is a senior management figure at a football (soccer) club, most commonly in Europe. The exact nature of the role is often unclear and causes much debate in the sports media."

A bit more about "Technical Directors"

In this case, the director of football may be sought by a board – or even manager – in order to provide advice or technical assistance on footballing or other aspects that are perceived as lacking or desired by the club. This may be the case where the manager is inexperienced or perceived as naive in a particular aspect, allowing the director to advise against potentially costly errors. This may also be the case where a club in a lesser league or lower division with ambitions to develop further and improve their league position seeks an experienced former manager or director from a more prominent league or club in order to use their experience to further the club. Such an example is that of Giovanni Trapattoniat Red Bull Salzburg or Sven-Göran Eriksson at Notts County.

In this case, however, the tag "director of football" may be dropped in order to prevent the "director" from undermining the present manager by his presence at the club with the person taking up a position such as with the youth academy perceived as subordinate to the manager.

Appointments in this case are often short term – for between 1/2 seasons – with the director imparting their advice and departing to another club.

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3 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

If that's what the head coach does, What does the Technical Director do? What does deVos do?

Not sure how all those job descriptions add up and in this case it's possible they have changed.  It would be good to get a clear breakdown of the current situation and what the mandates were for the likes Osiek, Floro, Oz ect.... 

I really don't know how often a men's coach is given such a role.  Is it always the case to some degree? I am sure they have somewhere, but I suspect in most cases all of the program stuff is already set up, for better or  worse.  I think most people here would argue that we have no such program on the men's side or at the very least people are clamoring for it to be better.  

So what do you do?  Egos are a reality.  The entire soccer community in this country can be summed up as a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other  (I would even argue monkeys are better at coordinating with each other when something important happens).   While this is deserving of contempt and scorn, it's not a good place to start if you are the person in charge of changing it.  No one has ever wielded enough power in such a position for this not to matter. 

Do you think it's possible, setting up a new program on the  men's side, Herdman might be uniquely suited to this task? 

Before people start another round of keyboard seizures, I ask this question in the category of bridging the divide between the grassroots and the top of the pyramid politically.   If you have the best program in the world no one will listen to you if you are back home talking to the media about all the garbage you have to work with. 

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I would love to see something similar to what the Auditor General does done with the CSA. Have Sport Canada audit and restructure the CSA to more effectively move the sport forward and better allocate the not-so-insignificant amount of resources in the sport that get squandered.

Some people on this board have put forth some good points in the past. Was it Robert who once calculated there is upwards of $100M unaccounted for in the system? (monies paid to play the sport minus costs) A lot of that money is in the form profit taken by club admin. It's not just a Soccer problem, Hockey has the same issue. 

And Trillium made some good points about the admin. structure and various overlaps between clubs, district assoc., provincial assoc. and the CSA. Eliminating one of the levels between clubs and CSA (*cough* the provinces) would increase efficiency and reduce costs. Did you know the OSA collects $20/head from each of their 500K registered players? That's $10M. The CSA collects $6M ($6 × 1M). That's a tonne of money to run 4 NTC teams and a dozen provincial teams (that BC, AB and PQ also run with a fraction the fees). 

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I believe Holger Osieck was the first to be given the role of Technical Director within the CSA.  He resigned from both positions in 2003 as we know.  

Englishman Richard Bate was the next CSA TD, hired in 2005.  He stayed for a year before running for the hills.

Stephen Hart was Technical Director from 2006 - 2009, when he vacated the position to focus on coaching the CMNT.

The role was vacant(!) for 3 years until Tony Fonseca took over in 2012.  Fonseca was still the CSA's TD in 2013 when Floro got hired.  Floro's only role was head coach, however the CSA's release on Floro's hiring noted: "We are confident he will provide a strong leadership in the development of Canada’s Men’s game, as well as complement and elevate the work that our technical department, lead by Tony Fonseca, is already doing.” 

Zambrano's role was to "oversee an integrated program from the Men's National Team through to all men's national youth teams from the U-14 age level and up."

Fonseca was hired as the York Region Soccer Assoc. Tech Director in May 2017, and is no longer on the CSA website, so I guess he's out as Tech Director.  The TD position no longer seems to exist.

Herdman's title in addition to CMNT coach is Men's National EXCEL Director, I believe the EXCEL program starts at U15.  DeVos conversely is Director of Development, which is focused on grassroots development.    

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7 hours ago, Ruffian said:

This statement is wrong. Recently we have had some of the top recruits going into the NCAA and that has a lot to do with the improvement of Canada Basketball's development pathway.

Hmmmm..... not exactly.... The majority are going to the United States as high school students for better competition before the start of their NCAA careers. 

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17 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

I believe Holger Osieck was the first to be given the role of Technical Director within the CSA.  He resigned from both positions in 2003 as we know.  

Englishman Richard Bate was the next CSA TD, hired in 2005.  He stayed for a year before running for the hills.

Stephen Hart was Technical Director from 2006 - 2009, when he vacated the position to focus on coaching the CMNT.

The role was vacant(!) for 3 years until Tony Fonseca took over in 2012.  Fonseca was still the CSA's TD in 2013 when Floro got hired.  Floro's only role was head coach, however the CSA's release on Floro's hiring noted: "We are confident he will provide a strong leadership in the development of Canada’s Men’s game, as well as complement and elevate the work that our technical department, lead by Tony Fonseca, is already doing.” 

Zambrano's role was to "oversee an integrated program from the Men's National Team through to all men's national youth teams from the U-14 age level and up."

Fonseca was hired as the York Region Soccer Assoc. Tech Director in May 2017, and is no longer on the CSA website, so I guess he's out as Tech Director.  The TD position no longer seems to exist.

Herdman's title in addition to CMNT coach is Men's National EXCEL Director, I believe the EXCEL program starts at U15.  DeVos conversely is Director of Development, which is focused on grassroots development.    

 

So is this program broader in scope?   What if anything is different I guess is the question. 

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26 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

The role was vacant(!) for 3 years until Tony Fonseca took over in 2012.  Fonseca was still the CSA's TD in 2013 when Floro got hired.  Floro's only role was head coach, however the CSA's release on Floro's hiring noted: "We are confident he will provide a strong leadership in the development of Canada’s Men’s game, as well as complement and elevate the work that our technical department, lead by Tony Fonseca, is already doing.” 

Zambrano's role was to "oversee an integrated program from the Men's National Team through to all men's national youth teams from the U-14 age level and up."

Fonseca was hired as the York Region Soccer Assoc. Tech Director in May 2017, and is no longer on the CSA website, so I guess he's out as Tech Director.  The TD position no longer seems to exist.

It's my understanding that Floro and Fonseca did not see eye to eye (for what that's worth).

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13 minutes ago, admin said:

 

So is this program broader in scope?   What if anything is different I guess is the question. 

I think their roles are whatever Herdman and DeVos want them to be.  They've been handed the keys to the kingdom.

Regardless, to combine the role of CMNT coach with any national Director role is an error of epic proportions.  An obvious and ridiculous error as the two roles require different skills and approaches.  Herdman's attitude, nice guy approach and ability to politick will serve him well as Director.  I think these same qualities will destroy him in the coaching role.  Bottom line, we know what would make a good CMNT hire: established and successful experience at the club or international level, preferably within concacaf. 

Paul James said this about Stephen Hart when he was hired, and in retrospect its eerily clear that PJ was bang on.  Switch Gold Cup to CWNT in this quote and this applies perfectly to Herdman:

"The Gold Cup performances have been positive and his ability to create harmony amongst an awkward group has been admirable. However, the test is really having the ability to get your players to "fight" at the right time, and in this area the questions should be asked about whether Hart can get the job done.

The gulf between Gold Cup games and World Cup qualifiers in terms of pressure, intensity and maturity is a big one. A nice-guy approach with tactical smarts will serve him well until the point when the money is on the line. Without an edgy approach that comes from an edgy personality it is difficult to fathom how a well-liked nice guy like Stephen Hart will get blood out of a stone from the group of players he selects to get the job done."

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43 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

I think their roles are whatever Herdman and DeVos want them to be.  They've been handed the keys to the kingdom.

Regardless, to combine the role of CMNT coach with any national Director role is an error of epic proportions.  An obvious and ridiculous error as the two roles require different skills and approaches.  Herdman's attitude, nice guy approach and ability to politick will serve him well as Director.  I think these same qualities will destroy him in the coaching role.  Bottom line, we know what would make a good CMNT hire: established and successful experience at the club or international level, preferably within concacaf. 

Paul James said this about Stephen Hart when he was hired, and in retrospect its eerily clear that PJ was bang on.  Switch Gold Cup to CWNT in this quote and this applies perfectly to Herdman:

"The Gold Cup performances have been positive and his ability to create harmony amongst an awkward group has been admirable. However, the test is really having the ability to get your players to "fight" at the right time, and in this area the questions should be asked about whether Hart can get the job done.

The gulf between Gold Cup games and World Cup qualifiers in terms of pressure, intensity and maturity is a big one. A nice-guy approach with tactical smarts will serve him well until the point when the money is on the line. Without an edgy approach that comes from an edgy personality it is difficult to fathom how a well-liked nice guy like Stephen Hart will get blood out of a stone from the group of players he selects to get the job done."

I'm not arguing for the change. 

I'm just trying to salvage some sense out of it all and I feel like I got past the apoplectic stage and reverted back to my comfortable and familiar state of hopelessness.  

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Not sure how all those job descriptions add up and in this case it's possible they have changed.  It would be good to get a clear breakdown of the current situation and what the mandates were for the likes Osiek, Floro, Oz ect.... 

I really don't know how often a men's coach is given such a role.  Is it always the case to some degree? I am sure they have somewhere, but I suspect in most cases all of the program stuff is already set up, for better or  worse.  I think most people here would argue that we have no such program on the men's side or at the very least people are clamoring for it to be better.  

So what do you do?  Egos are a reality.  The entire soccer community in this country can be summed up as a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other  (I would even argue monkeys are better at coordinating with each other when something important happens).   While this is deserving of contempt and scorn, it's not a good place to start if you are the person in charge of changing it.  No one has ever wielded enough power in such a position for this not to matter. 

Do you think it's possible, setting up a new program on the  men's side, Herdman might be uniquely suited to this task? 

Before people start another round of keyboard seizures, I ask this question in the category of bridging the divide between the grassroots and the top of the pyramid politically.   If you have the best program in the world no one will listen to you if you are back home talking to the media about all the garbage you have to work with. 

This is a good summary.  Between the CSA, provinces, districts and clubs, the entire system is an unmitigated clusterf*ck.  If Herdman can fix that, then all the power to him.  Based on the reactions to his hiring, he's starting in a difficult place.   

That said, I don't really see this is the job of a NT manager.  It's an administrative problem that requires an administrative solution. In fact, I would argue his appointment is a function of the problem, not an attempt to address the problem.  We've had a succession of CSA leaders who simply don't seem to want to deal with this for some reason.

All that said, if he can achieve something here, then he will have dealt with the single most important issue in Canadian soccer.  Unfortunately, I could have made the same observation when Tony Waiters was the MNT coach. 

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3 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

Fonseca was hired as the York Region Soccer Assoc. Tech Director in May 2017, and is no longer on the CSA website, so I guess he's out as Tech Director.  The TD position no longer seems to exist.

The moment De Vos's title and role were announced it pretty much made Fonseca's  job within the organization redundant.  I can't remember how long after this that he left the program but I am guessing that it was long enough to serve out his contract and tie up loose ends and create transitions.

With Zambrano, I'm not clear on this point:  was his contract terminated by mutual consent or are they paying out the remainder of his deal? 

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17 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

Canadians in the NBA have benefited from the extremely high quality of the American University system's basketball programs. They have the best already there just waiting to be plucked by the NBA. I'm not putting down Basketball Canada but let's be realistic, the NCAA is the reason!

 

Wrong!  The top Canadian basketball players are becoming great players before they even get to the NCAA!   The grassroots development that is taking place in the GTA is on par with the very best in the US or the world.  Obviously, the NCAA helps, but the best players only spend one season there anyways.

Just over the past few seasons there's been 2 kids who were considered the very best players in their incoming NCAA class, Andrew Wiggins and RJ Barrett.  Though they finished their high school careers at american prep schools, they were definitely developed in Canada.

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