Zambrano out!

[ray]

53 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 Interesting article from the Toronto Sun

‘BOTCHED HIRING’: Canada sacks Octavio Zambrano after tumultuous tenure, leaving John Herdman to pick up the pieces

http://torontosun.com/sports/soccer/botched-hiring-canada-sacks-octavio-zambrano-after-tumultuous-tenure-leaving-john-herdman-to-pick-up-the-pieces

• He was late to or absent from meetings
• struggled to implement a coherent top-to-bottom development plan that encompassed Canada’s youth teams, according to another source in the position to know.
• CSA’s top brass weren’t impressed with Canada’s recent Gold Cup run, with one high-ranking decision-maker giving Les Rouges’ performance a “C-plus” grade at last summer’s tournament.
• But Zambrano wasn’t replaced this week for his performance with Canada’s embattled men’s national team. He was supplanted by John Herdman, Canada’s well-respected women’s coach, because of his inability to oversee Canada’s entire men’s program, sources confirmed.

The CSA wasn't impressed that Canada won games and scored goals at the 2017 Gold Cup?  It didn't happen in the previous two Gold Cups.  Idiotic.  Brings into question their other reasons for dissatisfaction.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

Just had to point out the oxymoron in your sentence.  The stereotype is that the bureaucracy/administration does not have enough business types.  People with no clue about government always say "If only we had more business degrees in power then we would have less red tape and things would get done" - just like electing POTUS, because that is really working out for the US.  

Quite frankly, Canada does not have an obsession with bureaucracy and administration compared to many states.  Also, this CSA move is the opposite of bureaucratic.  Bureaucratic was when the CSA knew Floro was done, had no plan in place, set out a list of criteria of who they wanted, accepted job applications, and interviewed candidates and took 8 months to find a new coach.  With this change, CSA did their best Trump-Apprentice impression, said "You're Fired", and hired the guy they already knew - regardless of merit.  

 

Yeah I am going to have to disagree with all of that. Big time.

[Brazilero]

It is so very disrespectful what they are doing to Zambrano. If you had spent even 5 minutes speaking with the man you would know that he was very sincere about making positive changes. The fact that it didn’t include those in the old boys network is why he has been removed. Herdman will get exactly what Zambrano needs. Which is financial backing and total administrative support. Sid was so right and Canadian Soccer is never going to change until those at the top are removed and replaced. We are an international joke in football right now and when it finally comes to pass that this move was a total misery, I promise you nothing will change. It will not change because Canada as a nation has systemically made it possible for only those of a certain “kind” to make the rules. When real and honest people like Zambrano look to make positive changes within that system they do not allow it because of the same reasons we wag our fingers at America for voting in Trump. This is an absolute me shame and the fact that we as a football nation cannot see it, makes it even worse...

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, ray said:

The CSA wasn't impressed that Canada won games and scored goals at the 2017 Gold Cup?  It didn't happen in the previous two Gold Cups.  Idiotic.  Brings into question their other reasons for dissatisfaction.

Let's not forget that it was French Guiana, not Costa Rica or Mexico

[The Ref]

Don't anyone miss or be late to a CSA meeting, you will be fired ala Zambrano. 

[Lord Bob]

1 minute ago, The Ref said:

Don't anyone miss or be late to a CSA meeting, you will be fired ala Zambrano. 

I mean, habitually missing/being late to meetings is not something encouraged in management at most companies?

[Bison44]

What a waste of an article by Larson.  No top to bottom development plan (who was the last mens coach to have one that actually was implemented?? And will anyone in the CSA follow through on any plan unless they approve of it? Unless you are telling them what they want to here and not shaking things up??), poor gold cup results (that is just idiotic after our previous 2-3 gold cup results) and of course he is a botched hiring, Vic hired him not Reed.  Reed wants to pick his favorite wonder kid.....ugghhh.  How is this an article and not just a cut and paste of the CSA statement.  No quote from Zambrano??  No quotes from Sinclair/Vic/Devos/Forrest/Findlay??  Way to do the leg work there Kurt.  And he didnt come close to meeting expectations?? What did they expect him to do in 10 months??  About the only new thing is that Zambrano missed or was late to meetings.  

[jonovision]

57 minutes ago, ray said:

The CSA wasn't impressed that Canada won games and scored goals at the 2017 Gold Cup?  It didn't happen in the previous two Gold Cups.  Idiotic.  Brings into question their other reasons for dissatisfaction.

A C+ is an entirely fair grade, if a bit generous, it's just that recent past Gold Cups were Fs. We won 4-2 against not-a-country missing their best player, drew the Costa Rica B team, and then earned a scoreless draw against Honduras that saw both sides getting the result they needed.

Then we lost rather embarrassingly to Jamaica with questionable lineup choices all over the pitch.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, The Ref said:

Don't anyone miss or be late to a CSA meeting, you will be fired ala Zambrano. 

Try that with your employer and see how it works for you

[Kent]

26 minutes ago, ray said:

The CSA wasn't impressed that Canada won games and scored goals at the 2017 Gold Cup?  It didn't happen in the previous two Gold Cups.  Idiotic.  Brings into question their other reasons for dissatisfaction.

Canada won A game, not games. And yes we scored goals, but we also gave up 5 goals in 4 games. In those 2 previous Gold Cups we only gave up 4 goals in 6 games.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It was an incremental improvement, not some magical run like the 2000 Gold Cup or either of the women's Olympic bronze medal tournaments.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

What a waste of an article by Larson.  No top to bottom development plan (who was the last mens coach to have one that actually was implemented?? And will anyone in the CSA follow through on any plan unless they approve of it? Unless you are telling them what they want to here and not shaking things up??), poor gold cup results (that is just idiotic after our previous 2-3 gold cup results) and of course he is a botched hiring, Vic hired him not Reed.  Reed wants to pick his favorite wonder kid.....ugghhh.  How is this an article and not just a cut and paste of the CSA statement.  No quote from Zambrano??  No quotes from Sinclair/Vic/Devos/Forrest/Findlay??  Way to do the leg work there Kurt.  And he didnt come close to meeting expectations?? What did they expect him to do in 10 months??  About the only new thing is that Zambrano missed or was late to meetings.  

But we do have a top to bottom development problem which needs to be addressed. Let's forget for a second the whole PR mess and Herdman hiring. If the CSA tasked Zambrano with taking care of that and he decided to neglect or not wanting to do it after his hiring, it's equally a problem. Did Zambrano told the CSA he only wanted to coach prior to his hiring? No one's asking that question either. Sounds like he said he'd do everything and ended up not being interested in anything else except coaching.

The more things comes out, the more it looks like all sides share responsibilities for this mess.

 

 

[Kadenge]

33 minutes ago, ray said:

The CSA wasn't impressed that Canada won games and scored goals at the 2017 Gold Cup?  It didn't happen in the previous two Gold Cups.  Idiotic.  Brings into question their other reasons for dissatisfaction.

not to mention making it to the knock out stage for the first time in a very long time and playing the type of attacking soccer that allowed Davies to flourish, win the  golden boot and young player awards. When was the last time that happened for the CMNT? Would that have happened under Floro?

[Kent]

9 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

How will Herdman deal with not getting as many camps, friendlies (competitive ones at that) and tournaments like the ones in Cyprus that he got accustomed to?

How will he mettle in hostile highly charged crowds in max capacity stadiums in Central America??? The WNT didn’t have to qualify for the last WC as we hosted. How will he manage a team of players that are not as dominant vs their opponents skills and ability compared to the plethora of Canadian women’s talent against other nations where the women’s game is repressed or unsupported giving the CWNT a huge advantage.

In 2011 WWC Germany the women had to qualify via their 2010 GC tournament in Mexico. The women won the gold cup and did not concede a goal. They defeated host Mexico twice: once in group phase and the other time in the final via pk. The game was played in lovely Cancun in front of a crowd of only 16,000 and not 100,000 at high altitude Azteca. 

Seriously how will he handle the adversity of WCQ? He’s never had to deal with that. 

For the first bolded part, a reminder that the CONCACAF Nations League starts in the fall. That should alleviate the friendlies problem.

For the second bolded part, yes that's a fair question. We'll have to wait and see how he does. We've never hired a manager that has successfully qualified for a World Cup out of CONCACAF, and Herdman fits in that category too, just like Zambrano.

[Kadenge]

34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Let's not forget that it was French Guiana, not Costa Rica or Mexico

That may be, but Canada still finished above Honduras in the group. When was the last time that happened.  We tied minnows during the 2018 WC qualifying round. Look, we are all speculating here re OZ/JH, but regardless of how we feel, we still need to be objective otherwise this turns into a pissing match

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

not to mention making it to the knock out stage for the first time in a very long time and playing the type of attacking soccer that allowed Davies to flourish, win the  golden boot and young player awards. When was the last time that happened for the CMNT? Would that have happened under Floro?

I'm actually shocked at myself for writing this, but it seems the new brass at the CSA aren't looking for mediocrity anymore. Result wise, anything less than the last Gold Cup is a utter failure, but there's was nothing to start celebrating over either.

Again, shocked that I'm writing that the CSA might be looking to actually win and no longer settle for mediocrity.

Also, if Davies gets hurt or wasn't part of that tournament, we wouldn't have made it that far. We can't be a 1 or 3 player team. We need more depth.

[mpg_29]

30 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

Just had to point out the oxymoron in your sentence.  The stereotype is that the bureaucracy/administration does not have enough business types.  People with no clue about government always say "If only we had more business degrees in power then we would have less red tape and things would get done" - just like electing POTUS, because that is really working out for the US.  

Quite frankly, Canada does not have an obsession with bureaucracy and administration compared to many states.  Also, this CSA move is the opposite of bureaucratic.  Bureaucratic was when the CSA knew Floro was done, had no plan in place, set out a list of criteria of who they wanted, accepted job applications, and interviewed candidates and took 8 months to find a new coach.  With this change, CSA did their best Trump-Apprentice impression, said "You're Fired", and hired the guy they already knew - regardless of merit.  

 

Ok it was early and I was ranting pre-caffeine...but my point was our culture is very much centred on orderliness, administration, process etc.. and that can sometimes get in the way of progress and out-of-the-box thinking. 

[Bison44]

Good point Ansem, but if you can articulate a reason for firing him that makes sense, why cant the CSA??  And I still dont buy that, how do you do fix something that no one else has been able to fix ever, in only 10 months? How do you fix the fueding provincial fiefdoms and put together a top to bottom strategy when everyone in the room is fighting you??  Granted Herdman has had experience with CDN soccer politics for years, maybe he can do it where Oz might have no clue...so why not give Herdman DEVOS job or the Director job etc??  When Vic was looking to replace Floro we wanted someone with CONCACAF experience, someone with a more attacking/attractive style, someone to bring in duals, get results/motivate etc.  I dont remember the priority being some sort of developmental rehaul of the entire system, which I am skeptical that the mens coach is capable of doing.  

[Gian-Luca]

34 minutes ago, jonovision said:

A C+ is an entirely fair grade, if a bit generous, it's just that recent past Gold Cups were Fs. We won 4-2 against not-a-country missing their best player, drew the Costa Rica B team, and then earned a scoreless draw against Honduras that saw both sides getting the result they needed.

I wouldn't call that Costa Rican team that we drew a "B" team anymore than ours was and we lost to Jamaica by the same "embarrassing" deficit that Mexico did - one goal.

That said, a C+ isn't far off what I would have given the tourney and the previous ones this decade were D's and F's. But tough to justify clear progress from a coach as a reason for firing, which is what they are trying to do.

I think we need to conclude that this move is far more about Herdman than it is about Zambrano. If it was more about the latter, then a due diligence process would have been carried out and others might have been considered/interviewed. That it was not says its mostly about the former. The members of the media not named John Molinaro probably need to start acknowledging this more than they have to date.

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Massey said:

It's the old all-consuming manager versus a head coach and a director of soccer problem.

In the case of a national team with limited resources, I definitely understand not paying a guy $350,000 in a year purely to set six starting lineups. You need a vision for what sort of program you want and the ability to implement it somewhere in the organization. It's not going to be the politicians or the beancounters, and when they tried it didn't work. It's a professional's job which requires someone with power and accountability.

The logical person to look at is the best-paid guy with the highest profile, and on the women's side Herdman did that successfully. Maybe not the best available choice, but there's logic.

It appears though that the CSA does have resources to pay severance/termination payment to former coaches.....Seriously though, since we are all  speculating here is my take:

1. The CSA has chosen youth development over the short/mid term performance of the CMNT and looking at 2026. I do agree that with limited resources the CMNT coach has to be an integral component of youth development although I thought that was Jason De Vos' area? JH may have had success with the women's team in this area but the percentage of top athletes that choose soccer over other sports is much greater for women than it is for men i.e  hockey, basketball, baseball etc. That may be changing but it is going to be much harder for JH to accomplish this on the mens side.

2. the good news is that for the first time in a long time our starting 11 are all starting or getting significant  minutes with good teams in good leagues. Significant signings after 2017 GC...coincidence? perhaps. Larin has now supposedly signed with Besiktas, and Hoilett/Arfield are in good form. Borjan,  Cavallini and Cordova established with their teams. More playing time for De Jong and Osorio in MLS and James in Hungary. The development of our senior players rests with their club teams not the CSA or CMNT and this does bode well for the time being. The real key is whether JH hires CONCAF experienced  assistants who can bring some credibility to the program. He needs buy in from our senior players to have success.

I am still not happy with this change, but time will tell. What else can we fans do but hope?

 

[Gian-Luca]

46 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

What a waste of an article by Larson.  No top to bottom development plan (who was the last mens coach to have one that actually was implemented?? And will anyone in the CSA follow through on any plan unless they approve of it? Unless you are telling them what they want to here and not shaking things up??), poor gold cup results (that is just idiotic after our previous 2-3 gold cup results) and of course he is a botched hiring, Vic hired him not Reed.  Reed wants to pick his favorite wonder kid.....ugghhh.  How is this an article and not just a cut and paste of the CSA statement.  No quote from Zambrano??  No quotes from Sinclair/Vic/Devos/Forrest/Findlay??  Way to do the leg work there Kurt.  And he didnt come close to meeting expectations?? What did they expect him to do in 10 months??  About the only new thing is that Zambrano missed or was late to meetings.  

Larson is TFC's version of the Blue Jays' Mike Wilner, it's difficult to take anything he writes (which provides an opinion) seriously

[zeelaw]

Sick of my non-soccer friends being educated from Sid's rant yesterday.

Got so many clueless texts.

[-Hammer-]

Zambrano had two loses to his name. One in the gold cup to Jamaica and one friendly loss to El Salvador.

He however got us further then we had in ages at the Gold Cup, he drew Costa Rica who is arguably the #2 or #3 program in CONCAAF he avenged his loss to Jamaica in a friendly and he certainly ran a better and more flexible system then Floro.

I'm not going to say Zambrano was perfect, there is some stuff behind the scenes we don't know about (although I will say asking him to rebuild the youth system seems a bit out of what the role should entail) and I'm not going to rip into Herdman's ability. He's made strides in the Woman's game and has produced a great deal of success there (although how much that will translate to the men, we'll have to see). As far as the potential of backroom politicking to get the job, and using England as leverage, I'm not impressed by it and really if he finds success, what's to stop him from doing it again? That said, I suspect that not all the facts are out on this one. I'm a little puzzled as to why coaching the women became less appealing to Herdman.

What ticks me off about this is Zambrano appears to have produced far better then Floro did and yet was given substantially less rope then Floro was. I have little doubt he probably did rattle some cages at the CSA but I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that there are cages don't need to be rattled there? He wasn't even given a year and that's absurd. If Herdman doesn't work out (and I'm not saying he won't) how difficult is it going to be to attract a new head to the program after how quick you turfed the last guy. 

What is certain though, this move has weakened our Women's team, and has set back our Men's team, by how much and for how long we'll have to see. Systems, strategy and player selections will likely need to be re-done with a new coach so short-term it's a problem. Long term, frankly it's a giant question mark. Herdman has skills as a women's soccer coach, coaching the cream of the crop talent wise in the world there, but not coaching a team that is dead in the middle of the FIFA rankings and whose players are making six figures and being coached by other coaches in Europe and MLS.

Instead of just letting the woman's program become weakened with him potentially leaving, you've weakened the Women's program just as much as if he had left, and have short term weakened the men and potentially long term as well if his acumen and leadership doesn't translate over to the men.  I'm skeptical that Zambrano was so intolerant to work with to turf him that quickly after he produced positive results. Then again, maybe Herdman will outshine even Zambrano and long-term it will be the right move. It is a risky move, that seems needless, especially given the optics.

That all said, I'm not about to support making a giant torches and pitchforks tifo next Men's game because of this.

[Brazilero]

Coaching men is much different from coaching women. If they are smart, they will hire an assistant with a very good resume and someone with experience in the hex. Herdman will need major support and the CSA is willing to give him that support. It is risky but it might help him to be successful. Zambrano wanted to make change from top to bottom, which is what should be done, but the people at the top need their jobs and want to keep their friends employed, so they are doing whatever it takes to do so. The men's players, a large part of them loved Zambrano. The few speaking behind his back were loyal to the old boys club mentality. Those are the ones the anti-zambrano journalist are speaking about. Zambrano will most likely tell his story when it is all said and done and if he does, there will be a lot more to talk about. Believe that...

[Brazilero]

Morace made the womans team better... She made the right progress and because she didn't want to play ball with the CSA, she was removed. Same old story...Everyone that is trying to do what is necessary to make real change, is removed. Funny how that happens...smh

[1996]

3 minutes ago, Brazilero said:

Morace made the womans team better... She made the right progress and because she didn't want to play ball with the CSA, she was removed. Same old story...Everyone that is trying to do what is necessary to make real change, is removed. Funny how that happens...smh

Yup and yup again!