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4 hours ago, costarg said:

I don't understand what this comment stems from?  Where does he talk about J-league vs Brazil?  

 

Sorry. Thought the above article was the same as this one i read today. Im not crazy i swear  

https://www.newwestrecord.ca/canada-soccer-coach-john-herdman-says-lessons-to-be-had-from-gold-cup-exit-1.23899617

Asked what level he considered MLS, Herdman replied: "Tier 3."

He considers Tier 1 as the top five leagues in the world — England, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Tier 2 is made up of the likes of Mexico, Belgium and Turkey.

For him, Tier 3 includes MLS, Japan's J-League and the Argentina and Brazil domestic leagues.

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1 hour ago, king1010 said:

Sorry. Thought the above article was the same as this one i read today. Im not crazy i swear  

https://www.newwestrecord.ca/canada-soccer-coach-john-herdman-says-lessons-to-be-had-from-gold-cup-exit-1.23899617

Asked what level he considered MLS, Herdman replied: "Tier 3."

He considers Tier 1 as the top five leagues in the world — England, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Tier 2 is made up of the likes of Mexico, Belgium and Turkey.

For him, Tier 3 includes MLS, Japan's J-League and the Argentina and Brazil domestic leagues.

We can nitpick what he says but generally I would agree with him.  Argentina and Brazil while producing great players have little money to pay players and so the vast majority leave which is why its a great place for MLS to cherry pick players from as they can get them alot cheaper than European players.  You can argue with these categories but he's pretty close in my view.  Certainly, the case can be made that weaker sides in Belgium and Turkey maybe weaker than the average MLS side but the stronger sides are much stronger.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, An Observer said:

We can nitpick what he says but generally I would agree with him.  Argentina and Brazil while producing great players have little money to pay players and so the vast majority leave which is why its a great place for MLS to cherry pick players from as they can get them alot cheaper than European players.  You can argue with these categories but he's pretty close in my view.  Certainly, the case can be made that weaker sides in Belgium and Turkey maybe weaker than the average MLS side but the stronger sides are much stronger.

2011 Club world cup 

Brazilian club 2nd, Japanese club 4th

2012 

Brazilian club first, Japanese 5th

2013

Brazilian club third, Japanese doesn't qualify

2014 

Argentinian club second, Japanese doesnt qualify

2015

Argentinian 2nd, Japanese third

2016

Japanese 2nd, arg and brazil fail to qualify

2017

Brazilian team 2nd, japanese 5th

2018 

Argentinian 3rd, Japanese 4th

Japanese clubs outperformed Argentina or brazil 1 out of the last 8 tournaments. Teams in those south American leagues have some very very good players. I dont see japan being on par with brazil and argentina. If they are seen as tier 3 in herdmans eyes, chile, the league cordova is playing in is seen as very low tier. This is troubling if that is what is keeping cordova from a call up.

Also your statement about brazil and argentina having little money to pay is incorrect. Brazil is actually one of the highest paying leagues in the world. Argentina pays above Japan. Clubs like Santos, Corinthians, Boca are massive. 

https://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2018.pdf

https://deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283

Edited by king1010

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, An Observer said:

We can nitpick what he says but generally I would agree with him.  Argentina and Brazil while producing great players have little money to pay players and so the vast majority leave which is why its a great place for MLS to cherry pick players from as they can get them alot cheaper than European players.  You can argue with these categories but he's pretty close in my view.  Certainly, the case can be made that weaker sides in Belgium and Turkey maybe weaker than the average MLS side but the stronger sides are much stronger.

This is a very weird rationale.

Those leagues most definitely have money to pay players just by simply looking at the transfer fees that come out of  those leagues. MLS is paying high transfer fees for Argentinians Acosta, Brian Fernandez, Barco, Pity They don't pay high salaries because they are talent hotbeds where they are always investing in the youth i.e  a player is complaining about money?.. okay we'll sell you or next player up. Also simply put, how many Brazilians, Argentinians are in tier 1 leagues vs Japan? Quick look there's been 10 Japanese players to play in the EPL. Man City has had  Argentinians Aguero, Caballero, Demichellis, Zabaletta, Otamendi all at the same time. Brazilians Fernandinho, Fernando, Danilo, Ederson, Jesus all at the same time.

You just made a wrong observation 😉

Edited by Shway

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^ Fun read, however... one of those articles is 5 years old.  And reading in the comments the question of how misleading "average" is when compared to median average is raised.  The two measures can deviate quite a bit and create quite the different impression.

Do like this comment in the above article as it's quite funny and it does go a long way in demonstrating why I consider median average a more truthful value number.  Won't be bothered to verify if it's true or not but does have the ring of truth about it.  As of Spring 2014, 6 players earned 28% of MLS wages.

I have to question what use is average at that point in measuring a league's quality.

I don't mean to pick on MLS.  There is more than one league where the averages are dramatically skewed by the tiniest minority. 

Won't even touch the variables related to taxation or how a 100K euros in Belgium may not be a 100K euros in Ukraine.  

Not trying to encourage cynicism in anyone.  Just saying.   

 

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1 hour ago, king1010 said:

2011 Club world cup 

Brazilian club 2nd, Japanese club 4th

2012 

Brazilian club first, Japanese 5th

2013

Brazilian club third, Japanese doesn't qualify

2014 

Argentinian club second, Japanese doesnt qualify

2015

Argentinian 2nd, Japanese third

2016

Japanese 2nd, arg and brazil fail to qualify

2017

Brazilian team 2nd, japanese 5th

2018 

Argentinian 3rd, Japanese 4th

Japanese clubs outperformed Argentina or brazil 1 out of the last 8 tournaments. Teams in those south American leagues have some very very good players. I dont see japan being on par with brazil and argentina. If they are seen as tier 3 in herdmans eyes, chile, the league cordova is playing in is seen as very low tier. This is troubling if that is what is keeping cordova from a call up.

Also your statement about brazil and argentina having little money to pay is incorrect. Brazil is actually one of the highest paying leagues in the world. Argentina pays above Japan. Clubs like Santos, Corinthians, Boca are massive. 

https://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS 2018.pdf

https://deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283

According to what you included on the GSS document, Brazil pays significantly higher than Japan and Argentina pays similar to Japan (I didn't have time to check the others).  MLS is lower than Brazil but roughly around Argentina.  Mexico is lower than Brazil.  

On that metric, you can probably swap Mexico and Brazil (assuming the Brazilians actually get paid!).  As I say, people can always argue this multiple ways,

The Club World Cup is not a good metric in my mind as its it can be skewed by a few massive sides.  Consider Mexico.  The consistently beat MLS sides in the Concacaf club format but according to GSS are paying similar salaries.  I suspect because the top sides pay substantially more than the bottom ones; whereas MLS is more balanced.  

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I cringed when I heard Herdman lump the J-league with Brasil and Argentina, seriously, the man is too deluded or know **** all about the men’s league.  I would put the Brasilian league in Tier 2 because the league exports more players straight to Europe than Mexico, MLS, Argentina and Japan.  The Argentinian league should be Tier 2 but because of the economic crisis that affected the country in the last 20 plus years, more and more, has struggled to keep the better talent on home soil.  It took MLS almost 20 years to start raiding Liga MX and outbid then for better talent, why, because there are better deep pocket owners that own NFL franchises that can compete.  Regarding Japan as a Tier 3, I’d put them actually as a Tier 4.  Just seeing the last Copa america how Japan struggled with there U-23 team on some matches means they still got along ways to go, but getting better each year.  MLS to me is tied with Liga MX in quality but behind Brasileirao and Argentina Primera.  In term of financial might, MLS comes in 3rd behind Brasil and Mejico for now.

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7 hours ago, An Observer said:

According to what you included on the GSS document, Brazil pays significantly higher than Japan and Argentina pays similar to Japan (I didn't have time to check the others).  MLS is lower than Brazil but roughly around Argentina.  Mexico is lower than Brazil.  

On that metric, you can probably swap Mexico and Brazil (assuming the Brazilians actually get paid!).  As I say, people can always argue this multiple ways,

The Club World Cup is not a good metric in my mind as its it can be skewed by a few massive sides.  Consider Mexico.  The consistently beat MLS sides in the Concacaf club format but according to GSS are paying similar salaries.  I suspect because the top sides pay substantially more than the bottom ones; whereas MLS is more balanced.  

Since 2007 there has been a different south American rep every year. This is not being dominated by a couple teams skewing the quality.  This is over a dozen teams in SA out performing asia and japan. 

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18 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Tier 3, tier 4, category 2...are we talking the strengths of tropical storms here?

Lmao....have to just laugh at our bird manager at this point

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This can be fun, but mostly a pointless debate. Ranking leagues is highly subjective. You could rate them by which one has the highest ceiling, or which one has the highest floor, or which one has the best middle of the pack teams, or which league has higher budgets, or which league develops more/better players that it then sells on, or which league is more successful in continental/world competitions, or you could give a weighting to several of the above suggestions (and of course the weighting would be subjective) and come up with a single number that rates the "goodness" of the leagues.

Putting leagues in tiers should be less contentious because when you have 2 leagues in the same tier you aren't splitting hairs and trying to say which one is better than the other. It's just when you have one in a higher tier that in your opinion is worse than one that is in a lower tier that there would be an objection. But even then, it's still subjective.

The Club World Cup for example, doesn't prove much, because even if Brazil is always finishing 2nd, that doesn't mean they aren't a tier 3 league necessarily. Setting aside Mexico for a moment (maybe he has that one league in the wrong spot, but who knows, it's subjective) he lists Turkey and Belgium as Tier 2 leagues. They can never get into the Club World Cup because they have to get through all the tier 1 leagues in order to make it to the Club World Cup. Perhaps they would consistently beat Brazillian teams. And even if they don't, as per my first paragraph, just because the best teams in Brazil are better than the best teams in Belgium doesn't necessarily mean the league itself is better.

All this to say, can we just move on?

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9 hours ago, Kent said:

All this to say, can we just move on?

It’s tough to see this. without question we have our most inexperienced, naive..yet arrogant, manager of all time grooming the best talent pool of all time. 

there is a obvious pattern of nearly every decision or interviews going sideways with an inexperienced decision or comment.

I have chosen to be a positive person in my life. But this is insanity   

 

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On 7/30/2019 at 1:23 AM, nolbertos said:

I cringed when I heard Herdman lump the J-league with Brasil and Argentina, seriously, the man is too deluded or know **** all about the men’s league.  I would put the Brasilian league in Tier 2 because the league exports more players straight to Europe than Mexico, MLS, Argentina and Japan.  The Argentinian league should be Tier 2 but because of the economic crisis that affected the country in the last 20 plus years, more and more, has struggled to keep the better talent on home soil.  It took MLS almost 20 years to start raiding Liga MX and outbid then for better talent, why, because there are better deep pocket owners that own NFL franchises that can compete.  Regarding Japan as a Tier 3, I’d put them actually as a Tier 4.  Just seeing the last Copa america how Japan struggled with there U-23 team on some matches means they still got along ways to go, but getting better each year.  MLS to me is tied with Liga MX in quality but behind Brasileirao and Argentina Primera.  In term of financial might, MLS comes in 3rd behind Brasil and Mejico for now.

Not to nit pick or topic change but ya I know Japan got blown out by Chile in the first game (likely more to that story) but after that Japan tied Uruguay 2-2 & Ecuador 1-1 in the Copa in South America. Those results are no small feet in my eyes and pretty impressive for a U23 team vs a country's National Team. 

 

Also, I 100% agree with you, I  think Herdman mistake there was he should have def rated the J league a lower tier I don't think those leagues are no where near the talent levels of Brazil and Argentina.

As for tier 2 & tier 3 teams, in my eyes I think  a valid argument can be made it changes every 3-5 years. 

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On 7/29/2019 at 10:23 PM, nolbertos said:

I cringed when I heard Herdman lump the J-league with Brasil and Argentina, seriously, the man is too deluded or know **** all about the men’s league.  I would put the Brasilian league in Tier 2 because the league exports more players straight to Europe than Mexico, MLS, Argentina and Japan.  The Argentinian league should be Tier 2 but because of the economic crisis that affected the country in the last 20 plus years, more and more, has struggled to keep the better talent on home soil.  It took MLS almost 20 years to start raiding Liga MX and outbid then for better talent, why, because there are better deep pocket owners that own NFL franchises that can compete.  Regarding Japan as a Tier 3, I’d put them actually as a Tier 4.  Just seeing the last Copa america how Japan struggled with there U-23 team on some matches means they still got along ways to go, but getting better each year.  MLS to me is tied with Liga MX in quality but behind Brasileirao and Argentina Primera.  In term of financial might, MLS comes in 3rd behind Brasil and Mejico for now.

I can understand why Herdman lumps the J-League with Brazil. Just look at all the Brazilians that have played in the J-League:

Brazil Brazil[edit]

A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

I

J

K

L

M

N

O

P

R

S

T

U

V

W

Z

 

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On 7/30/2019 at 11:57 PM, Binky said:

I can understand why Herdman lumps the J-League with Brazil. Just look at all the Brazilians that have played in the J-League:

Brazil Brazil[edit]

A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

I

J

K

L

M

N

O

P

R

S

T

U

V

W

Z

 

I'm just quoting to make this thread ridiculously long, since the rest I am indifferent to.

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On 7/30/2019 at 11:57 PM, Binky said:

I can understand why Herdman lumps the J-League with Brazil. Just look at all the Brazilians that have played in the J-League:

Brazil Brazil[edit]

A

B

C

D