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Herdman new head coach

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3 hours ago, VinceA said:

I'd like to see the proof. Too much is said of off the field stuff but no one ever elaborates. At the moment both Zambrano and Herdman have accomplished the exact same, with herdman's exit in the QFs much more egregious.

Ya, it’s called politics. Put in a coach that can bring sponsorship and good optics but no substance. Zambrano would’ve won that game.

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Just now, Brazilero said:

Ya, it’s called politics. Put in a coach that can bring sponsorship and good optics but no substance. Zambrano would’ve won that game.

Maybe. Maybe not. I’m done worrying about the fact Zambrano did not deserve to be fired. What I’m interested in at this point is simply that Herdman is held to the same standard. 

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Herdman has got to go!

Godinho has no business starting or even making the team he barely played on a whatever team in the SPL. Cordova should have been on the squad, he said he wanted to be there so its not like he asked to stay in Chile. Why take off Cav when you are not winning? James should have been on the team. ZBG should have started that game, everyone on here knew that but he didn’t see how Godinho would be exposed. 

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Posted (edited)

I am by no means sold on Herdman, but some of the criticism here makes no sense. Faulting him for not building a resilient team is just silly. Resilience is not built in a day. It is a process. You must face adversity, fall down and then get back up and storm a head, usually with new lessons learned.  We fell down, and now we need to get up and show that we can grow. Nation's League will be the next test.

ZBG versus Godinho? Based on the evidence of three games, I am not sure there is much of a difference between the two, to be honest. And let's be clear that the first goal we gave up was mostly Borjan's fault. Why did he not just put his foot through the freaking ball?!

This is where Herdman deserves criticism: He has not, from day one, built this team for championship play. Which is odd, because international football is only about championship play.  What wins championships? Say it with me: defense. But not just the backline, of course, but total team defense. Yeah, you've got to score goals, but team defense comes first. The Sizzle seems to have gotten all caught up with the flashy offense side of our game, but did not lay the foundation for team defense. We gave up sloppy goals and plenty of chances--the game vs. Martinique could have gone really badly for us, let's be honest. I chalk this up to a team that has not adopted a playing style conducive to winning championships, and for that reason came to this tournament ill-prepared.  This is basic ****. We need to start with the right approach to how we play, get the right players on the field, and then give them as many chances as possible to get damned good at executing this approach.  It all starts from an understanding of how championships are won.  Look at the Raptors, for a great example. Not the deepest team in the league, but what team defense!!

I suspect Herdman is in way over his head. I suspect he is an administrator and an organizational builder, but not a football manager.  I am watching what MDS is doing out here in Vancouver, with a roster thin on talent, and I wish we had somebody like him coaching the national team. The Caps have a long ways to go, but they are grinding out results, often against very good teams, because MDS has them playing smart team defense. (They almost nicked a point from Seattle last night, in Seattle.)

Herdman has to hit the reset button. He needs to shift his approach to the game, and immediately.  Once he's done that, then he can start scouting and selecting the right players for the style we need to play. (I don't mean bunkering; I mean smart team defense. I mean tidy in possession. I mean the right players in the right position with the right formation with the right mindset.)  If he can learn and help this team grow and we start getting better results, then he can keep his job.  But the CSA needs to have their eyes wide open here. 

Edited by The Beaver 2.0

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Posted (edited)

Being a manager of a national team isn't usually viewed as a post where you get to learn on the job. You are already supposed to be the finished article when you are appointed. If the assessment is that there are significantly better options available out there, they should sack him and move on and let the next guy use the Nations Cup games to get ready for the push to qualify for Qatar in 2022. Given the CMNT job isn't normally a hugely sought after position by people with careers heading in the right direction that assessment normally isn't a given after one disappointing result. A lot will depend on whether he still has (or ever had) the confidence of the core group of players.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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One other (not so) small note: I think we came into this game under estimating Haiti. Herdman, for all his genius as a details guy, needed to prepare the guys for a tough and relentless physical battle. We were the softer team on the day, but we were also naïve and sloppy.  We needed to kill off the game, but we got complacent.  We should have known that they'd come out hard in the second half--ie because they had to--but we just didn't seem willing to pay the price. Some of our guys fought the entire game, to be fair. Though Doneil's terrible first touch resulted in the second goal against, he never gave up and remained strong and physical all came. David was smart in keeping the ball and drawing fouls. MAK was terrible. (Osorio was very good up to that point, to be honest. Head scratcher of a sub.) The fact that Herdman was getting Piette ready--very early in the second half!!--to take Hutch off says to me that Herdman himself got a head of things, was too cocky about our ability to see this game through. Borjan's error was borne our of cockiness. Again, this comes down to mentality and approach. Cocky does not win championships!

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Panic.

The players panicked in the second half.

We are all here panicking on this fourm.

I think we all need to take a step back and take a deep breath. 

This is definitely a failure, but with failure comes opportunities to learn. 

We potentially learn more from this than if we lose out to Mexico on talent in the semifinal. We already know Mexico are more talented, so we learn very little from that.

Ultimately, winning against Mexico, against all odds, would have been the best case senario for this group, but this loss forces the team to really examine itself early in the Herdman era.

Good. Better to do our soul-searching now than wcq.

What we don't need is more panic. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. 

Herdman needs to go back to the drawing board and critically analyze his strategy, keeping the good and expelling the bad.

Nations league is coming soon. Aside from some obvious tactical adjustments, Herdman must get the group to use this anger (and they should be angry) as motivation.

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3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Herdman needs to not only learn from the mistakes that his players made but also the ones he made, let’s put it that way.

We have to turn this negative into a positive. This can happen and it’s better to find out what your shortcomings are here than in WCQ - if the shortcoming is the coach not being self aware of his own shortcomings then that could be a problem. So some quotes from Herdman admitting his own errors would be nice, as would having a media that can question him on this.

From the post game interview , Herdman indeed addressed the error, nothing about himself,  that his team is not physically  competent .

What a fart!

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1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Panic.

The players panicked in the second half.

We are all here panicking on this fourm.

I think we all need to take a step back and take a deep breath. 

This is definitely a failure, but with failure comes opportunities to learn. 

We potentially learn more from this than if we lose out to Mexico on talent in the semifinal. We already know Mexico are more talented, so we learn very little from that.

Ultimately, winning against Mexico, against all odds, would have been the best case senario for this group, but this loss forces the team to really examine itself early in the Herdman era.

Good. Better to do our soul-searching now than wcq.

What we don't need is more panic. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. 

Herdman needs to go back to the drawing board and critically analyze his strategy, keeping the good and expelling the bad.

Nations league is coming soon. Aside from some obvious tactical adjustments, Herdman must get the group to use this anger (and they should be angry) as motivation.

What did Canada learn from all the past failures ? Did Canada ever learn and regroup from all the failures of the past? Did Canada learn and regroup from the 8-1 shellacking and come back and qualify for the following Hex?  So let’s not question why people have problems believing that this time it will be so much different and everything will be all right . I can recall that Gold Cup when Canada beat Guatemala in the quarters and played some beautiful soccer and only losing to crazy bad officiating to the US . So much hope after that Gold Cup that again went nowhere . But yes this time it’s different well let’s hope so but I’m going to be very skeptical because it’s soccer and this is Canada .

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Completely agree with the above. I read these posts about how well we played and the goals we scored and the exciting young players we have now... as if that will be enough. No. This game is about results. Right now, can we beat Jamaica, Honduras, Panama in a pressure situation at home? Can we grind out even one result on the road against any of these teams? Hell no, there's no evidence whatsoever that Herdman and this group is up to the task.  

This loss is a major psychological step back for this group. Herdman's in game decision making was piss poor and the whole world saw it. Don't think the players aren't having the same concerns we are about whether Herdman is the man for the job.  

Bottom line, Herdman has not produced any results against the types of teams we need to beat to make the Hex. His team **** the bed in the most important game in his tenure, when we were the favourites and had a 2-0 lead. Naive comments like he wasn't on the pitch are not helpful. This is football. The result is always the managers responsibility.  

Right now I'm absolutely disgusted by Herdman. He has lost my confidence completely. 

As a group, we need to expect and demand a home win against the US in the Nations League. I don't care about any of the other games. If we do not win that game at home, Herdman must absolutely be fired.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, BrennanFan said:

Completely agree with the above. I read these posts about how well we played and the goals we scored and the exciting young players we have now... as if that will be enough. No. This game is about results. Right now, can we beat Jamaica, Honduras, Panama in a pressure situation at home? Can we grind out even one result on the road against any of these teams? Hell no, there's no evidence whatsoever that Herdman and this group is up to the task.  

This loss is a major psychological step back for this group. Herdman's in game decision making was piss poor and the whole world saw it. Don't think the players aren't having the same concerns we are about whether Herdman is the man for the job.  

Bottom line, Herdman has not produced any results against the types of teams we need to beat to make the Hex. His team **** the bed in the most important game in his tenure, when we were the favourites and had a 2-0 lead. Naive comments like he wasn't on the pitch are not helpful. This is football. The result is always the managers responsibility.  

Right now I'm absolutely disgusted by Herdman. He has lost my confidence completely. 

As a group, we need to expect and demand a home win against the US in the Nations League. I don't care about any of the other games. If we do not win that game at home, Herdman must absolutely be fired.

It's pretty simple. Herdman has failed his first two tests. Mexico and Haiti.

Edited by VinceA

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3 hours ago, RJB said:

Maybe. Maybe not. I’m done worrying about the fact Zambrano did not deserve to be fired. What I’m interested in at this point is simply that Herdman is held to the same standard. 

He won’t be... he’s Canada’s answer to seeing the countries diversity. Caucasian male leadership again. Smh

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2 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

One other (not so) small note: I think we came into this game under estimating Haiti. Herdman, for all his genius as a details guy, needed to prepare the guys for a tough and relentless physical battle. We were the softer team on the day, but we were also naïve and sloppy.  We needed to kill off the game, but we got complacent.  We should have known that they'd come out hard in the second half--ie because they had to--but we just didn't seem willing to pay the price. Some of our guys fought the entire game, to be fair. Though Doneil's terrible first touch resulted in the second goal against, he never gave up and remained strong and physical all came. David was smart in keeping the ball and drawing fouls. MAK was terrible. (Osorio was very good up to that point, to be honest. Head scratcher of a sub.) The fact that Herdman was getting Piette ready--very early in the second half!!--to take Hutch off says to me that Herdman himself got a head of things, was too cocky about our ability to see this game through. Borjan's error was borne our of cockiness. Again, this comes down to mentality and approach. Cocky does not win championships!

Think the error was one of complacency more than cockiness. Given that this is the 4th match in a row that Haiti has won and the third of four where they came back in the 2nd half to win, that is the last thing we should have been. Herdman can talk about mental prep all he wants but this was the first time we faced adversity in a game situation (we weren't expected to win against Mexico, whereas this was the first time we gave up a 2nd half lead to a team we should beat, and where the wounds were self inflicted). A lack of games beforehand against quality opposition meant that we faced this scenario for the first time at the wrong time. The cost of not having tested ourselves for so long prior to the tournament.

There was progress in this tourney with the thrashing of teams below us, but not enough progress as it transpired, particularly in the tighter games against better teams. The upcoming games in the Nations League can't come soon enough.

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33 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Think the error was one of complacency more than cockiness. Given that this is the 4th match in a row that Haiti has won and the third of four where they came back in the 2nd half to win, that is the last thing we should have been. Herdman can talk about mental prep all he wants but this was the first time we faced adversity in a game situation (we weren't expected to win against Mexico, whereas this was the first time we gave up a 2nd half lead to a team we should beat, and where the wounds were self inflicted). A lack of games beforehand against quality opposition meant that we faced this scenario for the first time at the wrong time. The cost of not having tested ourselves for so long prior to the tournament.

There was progress in this tourney with the thrashing of teams below us, but not enough progress as it transpired, particularly in the tighter games against better teams. The upcoming games in the Nations League can't come soon enough.

All you said is true, but that does not exempt Herdman of guilt.  He is guilty as sin! and he should be let go.  Whether OZ is the solution, I can't say.  But judging by the CSA's continued screwups, who knows who we end up with.  I do not keep my fingers crossed.

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I bet that Cavallini and Osorio, who are good friends, would have complained to each other about being taken off. And for good reason. Osorio was playing playing very well in the midfield and Cavallini is a goal scorer, and scorer of our second goal. We needed a goal...

Replacing Oso and Cav with Morgan and Kaye was also mystifying. Should have used that last sub too IMO.

Herdman must take the responsibility here. Unfortunately there is no soccer media in this country to hold his feet to the flames, or pressure the CSA to ask hard questions internally or make a change.

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42 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Think the error was one of complacency more than cockiness.

Sure, but complacency is the result of an attitude. Sometimes it comes from simply not caring. Most of the time it comes from being over confident in one’s abilities. Our guys certainly cared. For that reason I feel they were a bit cocky. Not everyone, mind you. Maybe just Herdman and Borjan.

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What have we learned in the Gold Cup?  We are firmly established in the 7-10th best team in Concacaf range, which is where we have been for decades.  We can count on beating, and occasionally pounding Caribbean minnows.  We can count on being beaten by those above us.  We can sometimes get a result against those teams that are at our level.  But we are not a hex team and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.  Sure, we have potential to get there.  We can have hope.  

That's why it is so frustrating that our coach doesn't recognize where we are at. All his positive thinking and mental gymnastics doesn't change the fact that we have not beaten anyone yet.  How do we go almost 2 years without playing a team at our level?  How can he get away with talking about playing Mexico twice at the start of the group stage - and assuming we are playing in the semis?  How can he even mention the semis prior to playing the quarterfinal?  What have we earned?  Haiti was not the underdog.  We are the underdog. We need to start acting like it and not assuming that results will be gifted to us because we now do yoga and think positively.

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2 minutes ago, narduch said:

Duane Rollins is reporting that his contract runs until 2026. How can the CSA be so stupid?

Even established soccer nations don't hand out contracts that long. 

We are ******* doomed. 

It just makes it more expensive to remove him. For an association tight on cash, a long term contract without an escape clause for poor performance is not wise, no. 

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This is hilarious. Putting our heads in the sand is not the answer. Time to remove the CSA board and remove all decision makers that have been there too long. Time for a change.

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27 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Sure, but complacency is the result of an attitude. Sometimes it comes from simply not caring. Most of the time it comes from being over confident in one’s abilities. Our guys certainly cared. For that reason I feel they were a bit cocky. Not everyone, mind you. Maybe just Herdman and Borjan.

On second thought, it is more likely we just weren’t prepared (out of complacency?) This is a young team headed in the right direction. We need more high quality games together. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, narduch said:

Duane Rollins is reporting that his contract runs until 2026. How can the CSA be so stupid?

Even established soccer nations don't hand out contracts that long. 

We are ******* doomed. 

Because herdman was the yes man that fell in line with the CSAs vision and Zambrano was not. The CSA seems to think they know the answers and their way will get us to where we want to be. As a result they rewarded their yes man with an 8 year contract. 

Edited by king1010

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2 hours ago, narduch said:

Duane Rollins is reporting that his contract runs until 2026. How can the CSA be so stupid?

Even established soccer nations don't hand out contracts that long. 

We are ******* doomed. 

The stupid leading the incompetent.  CSA's banner!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SoccMan said:

What did Canada learn from all the past failures ? Did Canada ever learn and regroup from all the failures of the past? Did Canada learn and regroup from the 8-1 shellacking and come back and qualify for the following Hex?  So let’s not question why people have problems believing that this time it will be so much different and everything will be all right . I can recall that Gold Cup when Canada beat Guatemala in the quarters and played some beautiful soccer and only losing to crazy bad officiating to the US . So much hope after that Gold Cup that again went nowhere . But yes this time it’s different well let’s hope so but I’m going to be very skeptical because it’s soccer and this is Canada .

I think a healthy dose of skepticism is definitely warrented at this point. I for one am more skeptical now than I was before this tournament.

Will things be different this cycle? I don't know. Nobody knows.

But if we are this upset about getting knocked out of the quarterfinal, are we not moving in the right direction? 2013 & 2015 were not that long ago...

This hurts so much because expectations grew way too quickly for this group. I am just as guilty as the next guy. Herdman is most definitely guilty of this. The media is guilty of it, too.

We all believed this group could go all the way because the talent was there.

The lesson here is that you need more than talent. The group must learn that. This loss gives them catalyst to learn that. And we learned that in Gold Cup. Better to learn this now.

There was no Confederation's Cup qualification on the line. There was no World Cup qualification on the line. 

This was a complete meltdown of epic proportions, but we got further than Honduras and Trinidad.

Take a step back for a second. We had better players than 2017, and we also had a better Gold Cup too, all things considered. 

Before Gold Cup qualifying began, if you were to ask people if they'd have taken a quarterfinals apperance with our top two forwards scoring 5 and 6 goals respectively, most would have taken it as slight progress. 

Disappointing? Yes, but things are slowly getting better.

And what about Haiti? Let's give them some credit. It takes two to tango. Our capitulation goes unpunished if they weren't so remarkably clinical.

It was the worst confluence of factors, but we didn't pay the ultimate price for it. 

The sky is not falling.

Edited by Obinna

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