Herdman new head coach

[Admin]

6 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I need to see if I still have any games PVR'd where Herdman was brought in by TSN as an analyst - can't remember if this was for national team games or TFC games. Would be more interesting now to listen to his analysis.

The Neil Davidson article I linked to above really emphasizes the "motivator" part of his coaching style & effectiveness.

Please share what you find. Would be great to hear what you think.

 

 

[1996]

6 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I know this board does not like the CSA. Their record is absolutely terrible. So far this move looks like a strange one. But honestly people, we have no idea what was going on behind the scenes... I am just going to stay away from all the arguing and accept the fact that we have a new coach. 

I have always seen Herdman as a great coach, and a complete class act. He let the CSA know he was leaving a while back. That was no big surprise. I still have confidence in his character and his abilities. I know he is not fully proven, but I will support him. I still want Canadian soccer to thrive. He did it with the women, maybe he can do it with the men. 

I have no interest in arguing about what happened for him to get the job, because it is all speculation. I just want to voice my support for him personally as the new coach of the team.

But of course your going to support this decision because as you stated you like him and fair enough, however, I don’t think he is qualified to coach at this level, yes the men’s national team level, moreover, I don’t buy this crap about Zambrano not be able to do the job and being incompetent, totally crap , the CSA is still the CSA of the Keven Pipe days nothing has changed and this move proves it !

[Kent]

22 hours ago, Kadenge said:

 A few years ago, Victor M. was interviewed on radio and asked why they don't  appoint JH as coach of the CMNT.  His reply was that the women's game is totally different from the men's game and that JH would not be qualified  to  coach the CMNT.

Well then that might explain why this is happening now rather than last year when Zambrano was hired.

[red card]

5 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I haven't followed the women's team closely enough to know, has JH been the kind of coach to make drastic changes when things aren't going well? Has he made questionable call ups that have worked out? Have his lineups been static and without change when necessary? Has he given younger players a chance? I'm curious to know what people think.

Since he was in charge of the women from 14+, he knew enough about the young players to give them plenty of chances.

In my view, his main achievement on the women's side has been to build an development pipeline 14+ despite our youth clubs being sub par developing players 5-13. He made the women a top 5 team but his legacy will be that he built a top 5 development pathway with skillsets he wanted on the senior team. He's the only one in Canadian football who has succeeded in doing this. He is a good strategic planner and will likely have his own five year mission to seek out new players with new skills.

Second, he is a great motivator at the team level and individually. He's good at building a team culture. He gets hired by major Canadian companies including the one I work for to provide key note speeches. Since our men's teams have historically shown to not to be mentally strong and not cohesive as a team, he should be able to add lots of value.

Third, his playing style is pragmatic. As he was able to develop players with the skillsets he wanted, the women's team went from physical, set piece & Sinclair dependent to attacking fullbacks and moving the ball with midfield generals. 

Con is that he has no experience on the men's side and puts the women's upward trajectory a bit back. Herdman & CSA is boldly going where no man has gone before: going from coaching women's national team to a men's national team. Though, Hockey Canada went the other way with Kevin Dineen and won a gold medal. 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by red card

[BuzzAndSting]

55 minutes ago, red card said:

Since he was in charge of the women from 14+, he knew enough about the young players to give them plenty of chances.

In my view, his main achievement on the women's side has been to build an development pipeline 14+ despite our youth clubs being sub par developing players 5-13. He made the women a top 5 team but his legacy will be that he built a top 5 development pathway with skillsets he wanted on the senior team. He's the only one in Canadian football who has succeeded in doing this. He is a good strategic planner and will likely have his own five year mission to seek out new players with new skills.

Second, he is a great motivator at the team level and individually. He's good at building a team culture. He gets hired by major Canadian companies including the one I work for to provide key note speeches. Since our men's teams have historically shown to not to be mentally strong and not cohesive as a team, he should be able to add lots of value.

Third, his playing style is pragmatic. As he was able to develop players with the skillsets he wanted, the women's team went from physical, set piece & Sinclair dependent to attacking fullbacks and moving the ball with midfield generals. 

Con is that he has no experience on the men's side and puts the women's upward trajectory a bit back. Herdman & CSA is boldly going where no man has gone before: going from coaching women's national team to a men's national team. Though, Hockey Canada went the other way with Kevin Dineen and won a gold medal. 

 

If someone told me that the CSA hired a coach and program director with all those qualities and experiences I would be ecstatic, the fact that he’s coming from our own WNT and the fact that he has no coaching experience at any level close to this is disappointing. I’m really torn by this decision but I can’t wait to see how it turns out.

Thanks very much for your input.

[BrennanFan]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Since he was in charge of the women from 14+, he knew enough about the young players to give them plenty of chances.

In my view, his main achievement on the women's side has been to build an development pipeline 14+ despite our youth clubs being sub par developing players 5-13. He made the women a top 5 team but his legacy will be that he built a top 5 development pathway with skillsets he wanted on the senior team. He's the only one in Canadian football who has succeeded in doing this. He is a good strategic planner and will likely have his own five year mission to seek out new players with new skills.

Second, he is a great motivator at the team level and individually. He's good at building a team culture. He gets hired by major Canadian companies including the one I work for to provide key note speeches. Since our men's teams have historically shown to not to be mentally strong and not cohesive as a team, he should be able to add lots of value.

Third, his playing style is pragmatic. As he was able to develop players with the skillsets he wanted, the women's team went from physical, set piece & Sinclair dependent to attacking fullbacks and moving the ball with midfield generals. 

Con is that he has no experience on the men's side and puts the women's upward trajectory a bit back. Herdman & CSA is boldly going where no man has gone before: going from coaching women's national team to a men's national team. Though, Hockey Canada went the other way with Kevin Dineen and won a gold medal. 

 

Men's player development issues are so much greater than the women its not even worth comparing the two.

Herdman's development pipeline was needed and worked to identify players for the CWNT because, at least compared to what exists now for the men, there is no developed academy structure in place for the women.  Identified players could be brought in to the CWNT to make an impact as youths and college players because the standard of the women's international game is not that far removed those levels.  Whereas for the men, there is a vast ocean between what is going on at our youth clubs and what it takes to win in Concacaf.  All of Herdman's development pipeline experience is going to do JACK SQUAT for the men.  What we need is a league and pyramid and academies, not John Herdman's individual genius.  

Herdman has built a brand around himself as a motivator.  That worked for the women but I highly doubt it will hold much sway for the men who have experience playing for quality coaches in europe. They will want to see a coach who brings as much or more to the table than Floro and OZ, not hot air feel good about yourself bullshit.  

Herdman has not been as successful with the women as he should have been. 

I hope he does well, but he's really put himself behind the 8 ball the way all of this went down.

[A_Gagne]

With 24hrs to reflect... I still think this was a stupidly high risk gamble.

Herdman better deliver, and the new CWNT staff better not let the women's program slip.

If either happens the CSA's reputation will be right back to the good old days of clusterfuckness, and  Herdman will never get another shot at a men's team or any major women's team again.

Needless to say, hope it works out. Not supper optimistic though.

[RJB]

I'm really disappointed in this decision by the CSA.

The things that they are saying about Zambrano (they being Schaad) are really silly frankly, especially after only 9 months on the job.  If they are in fact true, doesn't that say something more about the CSA for having just hired him!?  And when this comes off the back of our first QF in the Gold Cup in seemingly forever, where we finished second in our group after just two matches with our new coach!  He had us playing well, and if there were administrative issues, then perhaps they should hire an administrator?  Anyhow, I like Zambrano, but if he was the wrong guy, then that's on the CSA. 

Another thing, is that by hiring Herdman without due process, they are saying that not only was he the best candidate in the entire world available to us, and that it is so obvious to everyone they didn't need to look for other candidates!  This is incredibly small minded and short sighted.  The fact is that John Herdman managed to bully his way into the CMNT job, got his people hired to run the CWNT, and all at the cost of whatever his salary is plus certainly the cost of buying out Zambrano. 

Rudi Schuller says that Herdman deserves a chance, but I disagree.  Obviously I hope he succeeds, because I've been aching for success for too long, but I have no patience for him.  He needs to succeed immediately for my liking (or at least within 9 months), due to the manner in which the CSA allowed him to force their hand.  This type of move by the CSA gets made for superstars, and so I expect superstar results. 

I'm going to be very interested to see who his staff will be.  Honestly, I don't have high hopes, and can see DeVos getting the job.  This would explain the Schaad hacking of Zambrano (given Schaad's relationship through TV with DeVos).  And DeVos is probably one of the supporters behind this move, as it will allow him perhaps to gain experience as an Assistant, and be the next one for the job. 

Serious bush league stuff by both the Herdman Soccer Association (formerly the CSA), and I look forward to hearing what Zambrano has to say.  It's an old boys club all over again!

[RJB]

23 hours ago, tc-in-bc said:

but  attempts to reduce or diminish or dismiss his experiences because he was coaching women --  is the textbook definition of sexism.  

As much as this is technically correct, I think you must acknowledge there are major, major differences in mens and womens soccer.  For the men, they come in oh so briefly as well paid professionals, they train a few times, and play a match.  For the women however, this is their job oftentimes.  Don't forget many of the CWNT players playing professionally in the States are paid by the CSA.  Herdman could really use the "family" motivation for the women, because they really do need to play for each other.  Whereas the men get that "family" experience from their club.  The differences in the two are humongous. 

And he won't be able to bond with the men like he does with the women. Because at the national level, the women are often getting their best, most well paid coach they immediately have respect for him.  But the men are usually getting the reverse.  They're coming to an inferior nation at the sport.

For these reasons there are coaches that can/should do one or the other but not both.

[Free kick]

7 hours ago, jpg75 said:

The beauty of sport is that it's a meritocracy, you can determine the relative quality of two teams when they play each other or more specifically how good a player is when they try playing at a certain level. We find over and over that CDN women's NT's in both Hockey and Soccer both seem to be equal to 2nd tier elite boys teams in their mid-teens. We can also look at certain women's hockey players who have played against men. Manon Rheaume and Shannon Szabados both played Tier II Jr. against boys. Rheaume was called up to the Q and Minor pros as a publicity stunt and was terrible. Hailey Wickenheiser played in the 2nd Div. in Finland as a bottom 6 forward with limited effectiveness. So, is it insulting to say that some of the best women's hockey players are Tier II Jr. or fringe pros when evidence points to that being their level? Is it insulting to say that a coach whose top level reached is Tier II Jr. or Finnish D2 coach is too untested to be considered a good candidate for say an AHL or KHL coaching post? (a leap up a few levels) They might turn out to be good enough for the job, but you're taking a big risk on an unknown quantity.

I dont disgree with anything you said.  In fact to better illustrate your point,  i would invite anyone to watch the the final of womens tournment at last summer’s Canada games.  It was unbelieve in that i did not see a pass successfully completed over very long stretches of the game. Raely in fact.  Its was mayhem in so far as battles for the ball and players kicking and kicking it anywhere with no purpose and just running, running and more running.  This was a final involving the best girls from Canada two most populous provinces.  If you grew up and were used to watching the mens game (and what makes the sport attractive) , that final was totally unwatchable.  

The womens game is totally different.  At highest levels of the sports (ie.: The world cup) it has now progressed to a level that is, at least, watchable in more than a few cases.   But below that level,  its almost a different sport.  

Having said all that,  this discussion should not be trial of the women’s game versus the mens game. Its about a coaching hire.  As i said yesterday,  i seriously doubt that Herdman is not aware of differences between the two versions of the game.  People have questioned his resume, fair enough, i have to agree.  But we have hired MNT coaches who have not had anything interesting on the coaching resume.  What about Dale Mitchell for example?  In fact,  other than Holger Ocieck and maybe Frank Yallop, what have others had?   Floro’s backgroud was grossly deceiving.  People were enamoured because the name Real Madrid was on it.  I often used the example (ok exagerated a bit) that if i worked in the mailroom at Apple or Google,  does that make me qualified to be CIO anywhere else at a smaller outfit.?

Edited January 10, 2018 by Free kick

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

5 hours ago, 1996 said:

But of course your going to support this decision because as you stated you like him and fair enough, however, I don’t think he is qualified to coach at this level, yes the men’s national team level, moreover, I don’t buy this crap about Zambrano not be able to do the job and being incompetent, totally crap , the CSA is still the CSA of the Keven Pipe days nothing has changed and this move proves it !

I am not sticking up for the decision. I honestly have no clue if it is stupid or smart. I am just saying that Herdman has my support.

[ray]

8 hours ago, RJB said:

Rudi Schuller says that Herdman deserves a chance, but I disagree.  Obviously I hope he succeeds, because I've been aching for success for too long, but I have no patience for him.  He needs to succeed immediately for my liking (or at least within 9 months), due to the manner in which the CSA allowed him to force their hand.  This type of move by the CSA gets made for superstars, and so I expect superstar results.

Agreed.  Herdman has been given a chance.  He doesn't deserve it.

There certainly seems to be a cult of Herdman within the CSA.  They were willing to press the reset on the men's team (again) for a guy who is really only exciting to them.

[BreadBoy]

"Canada Soccer demoted John Herdman from coach of the national women's team to head of the entire men's program"

From the Globe and Mail today:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/john-herdman-enters-the-black-hole-of-canadian-mens-soccer/article37546067/

 

[Lord Bob]

Strange that Cathal Kelly thinks the WNT is more prestigious than the MNT when the WNT had to play a World Cup at a stadium with a running track.

[jpg75]

I refuse to click the link and give him more web traffic...

[Bison44]

Oh boy, I regret clicking on that Cathal Kelly story.  I thought Larson was out to lunch, but I am not even sure kelly even likes soccer.  More sensationalism/intended controversy to get clicks and attention.  Kick the mens program cause thats easy and everyone at the globe and mail sports desk will laugh.  F#ck I hate that guy.  

[Boominbooty]

I'll be skewered for saying this but with an objective look (and not with the voyageurs glasses on). Kelly is pretty accurate. The woman's team is doing well, is revered nationally and gets the mainstream sports attention the men's team could only dream about. The men's team (and I watch all the goddamn games on bad internet feeds just like the rest of you and I try and convince friends to watch who think I'm nuts, so I am invested) is quite frankly a shit show. Kelly is saying exactly what Sid says in his clip. but using different words. The men's program (not the players) is a dumpster fire. That's what Kelly is saying, and he's right.

[Marc]

13 hours ago, Free kick said:

 But we have hired MNT coaches who have not had anything interesting on the coaching resume.  What about Dale Mitchell for example?  In fact,  other than Holger Ocieck and maybe Frank Yallop, what have others had?   Floro’s backgroud was grossly deceiving.  People were enamoured because the name Real Madrid was on it.  I often used the example (ok exagerated a bit) that if i worked in the mailroom at Apple or Google,  does that make me qualified to be CIO anywhere else at a smaller outfit.?

Exactly.  He's not replacing a well-known or even well-qualified boss. If Herdman had come over from coaching lower-league Europe, or a couple of long-past, mediocre years in MLS, from within the program itself, heck, from anything other than a women's program, the reaction would not be so strong.  It's all just so silly.  Even if he fails, we'll look back on some of these reactions with embarassment.

Herdman could have floated to UK job. He didn't.  Respect that.

[nolbertos]

Love it, Love Cathal, Sid and Ed Willes criticizing the CSA and its decision and the hiring of Herdman.  I wish more people would criticize them more, rather than waiting for a juicy story like Zambrano’s exit to get the public’s attention.  Wish there was a way for the feds to clean house there.  As Cathal stated the CSA foundation is built on sand and will be for years to come unless changes happen.

[Obinna]

Can't agrue with anything he said. It's all true. 

Wish the transition was more clean, wish Zambrano wasn't thrown under the bus, and wish we had a coach with real pedigree, but that was never going to happen for a multitude of reasons.

One thing can be said for sure, this doesn't sound like it will be more of the same. Brain room? Themes? Structures? It all sounds a little new aged and we do have a young squad and I think some players will buy into it, but others like Cavallini I have a very, very, very hard time seeing him going into the brain room to make sure he's mentally prepared. Perhaps you can even blame the players for not having humility, but it is what it is. All part of the challenge.

I am far, far, far from optimistic it will work out. But the decision has been made.

Our job as fans now is to really put pressure on the CSA. Force them to take ownership and force a change when the results aren't to our standard. 

If they are, the CSA and herdman deserve praise. If not? Run them out of town. All of them.

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Massey said:

Strange that Cathal Kelly thinks the WNT is more prestigious than the MNT when the WNT had to play a World Cup at a stadium with a running track.

It shouldnt be but it is.

[Lord Bob]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

It shouldnt be but it is.

Reference to a column Kelly wrote for the 2015 WWC where he said it was a disgrace that Canada was hosting World Cup games at a stadium (Commonwealth) with a running track rather than at BMO Field.

[Kent]

7 hours ago, BreadBoy said:

"Canada Soccer demoted John Herdman from coach of the national women's team to head of the entire men's program"

From the Globe and Mail today:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/john-herdman-enters-the-black-hole-of-canadian-mens-soccer/article37546067/

 

I didn't realize this was a Cathal Kelly article before I clicked the link. Maybe now that he has already gotten my click I should read it to renew my vows of not reading his articles.

[Bison44]

Cripes, I dont need Kelly to tell me the mens team isnt good.  The smug comments about hiring nobodies and hoodwinking guys off the street to coach canada....grrrrrr.  I am sure the guys at the hockey desk were laughing hysterically.  

"Herdman is not Zambrano's natural successor. Rather, he's the only coach worth a damn who'd want the job. He's also one of the only people who will have some clue as to what he's gotten himself into."

Dos Santos or Biello arent worth a damn?  Herdman is the only guy who understands the ins and outs of canadian soccer politics??  Finlay couldnt have coached while they put wonder boy in charge of revamping the top down development etc??  GRRRRRRR.  Kelly isnt saying anything insightful, just piling on the mens program. Its like when you are watching highlights and your non fan buddies scream and yell about someone diving.  Sure they were diving, I dont like it either, but now they are going to go on a 20min rant about it and why soccer sucks.  Give me a break.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Its like when you are watching highlights and your non fan buddies scream and yell about someone diving.  Sure they were diving, I dont like it either, but now they are going to go on a 20min rant about it and why soccer sucks.  Give me a break.  

WARNING: off topic diversion

Diving is an important part of the game and absolutely necessary for soccer to work. Like fighting in hockey. It is a natural extension of both running and controlling a ball with your feet without being able to hold it. Diving is what preserves quality soccer and keeps hack defenders from injuring players with talent. 

Well, anyways, that's what I tell people when they bitch like that (including a ton of fat-ass fans at BC Place who would be limping for weeks if they'd been "not fouled" that way). Hit your thumb with a hammer, you scream and jump and swear, and you need about 40 seconds to calm down; then you can go on hammering again.

Or I just remind them that once diving-embellishment was not a hockey penalty, and now it is. For a reason. There are a couple dozen such calls each year in the NHL, more than in the MLS.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist