Herdman new head coach

[Keegan]

Please for the love of god we need some matches.  You can't have two young 17 and 18 year old phenoms and completely waste the year by never playing.. like really, are we gonna finish the year by playing NZ in Spain and then 3 minnows in the fall?

Can someone in the media do their job and just ask bluntly: "There are 3 LON matches and nothing else.. are we going to see this team play more than 4 times this year?".

Simple! It's a complete joke that we are seemingly going to go from October 2017 to September 2018 playing one match in a World Cup year when the rest of the world is going crazy with football.  Media please put some pressure on the CSA!! Otherwise they are going to mail it in and we will only have 3 more matches.  What we really need is 3 tough matches mixed in with our LoN matches.. I'm talking teams like Peru, Paraguay, Costa Rica, Jamaica etc. teams that will be at the level we need to beat when it counts.  We can't just run over teams of part-time players and pat ourselves on the back like we did something special.  If we don't book anymore friendlies we will have played all of 2018 against teams featuring amateur players.. let that sink in.  

Edited March 25, 2018 by Keegan

[BuzzAndSting]

Soooooo Collin Miller is on staff?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Keegan said:

Please for the love of god we need some matches.  You can't have two young 17 and 18 year old phenoms and completely waste the year by never playing.. like really, are we gonna finish the year by playing NZ in Spain and then 3 minnows in the fall?

Can someone in the media do their job and just ask bluntly: "There are 3 LON matches and nothing else.. are we going to see this team play more than 4 times this year?".

Simple! It's a complete joke that we are seemingly going to go from October 2017 to September 2018 playing one match in a World Cup year when the rest of the world is going crazy with football.  Media please put some pressure on the CSA!! Otherwise they are going to mail it in and we will only have 3 more matches.  What we really need is 3 tough matches mixed in with our LoN matches.. I'm talking teams like Peru, Paraguay, Costa Rica, Jamaica etc. teams that will be at the level we need to beat when it counts.  We can't just run over teams of part-time players and pat ourselves on the back like we did something special.  If we don't book anymore friendlies we will have played all of 2018 against teams featuring amateur players.. let that sink in.  

CNL is coming...

Edited March 25, 2018 by dsqpr

[Shway]

I strongly agree with @Keegan.

We're literally dealing with harsh realities from not only a supporters aspect but for players as well. The thing is the previous manager mentioned this as a problem to address. He stated we need more games, we need more games against competitive teams like the Argentinas, Colombias and Brazil and was trying to make those things happen. 

Yes I'm not over OZ,  because for the very same things I hear JH being glorified as if he is saying something revolutionary than what the previous manager was already saying and trying to embed (winning mentality, playing free, etc).  We just need fucking games. And no,  not closed door games in empty stadiums in Moldova. 

Everytime I feel like we made 5 huge steps forward, we take 10 small quiet  ones backwards. Reason why I have said I can't get excited anymore, I don't care how political correct the manager talks in saying all the things we want to hear - I want to see/hear change and progress. 

But I guess we are so good that the CNL qualifiers will be used as our training/acclimatizing camps for the real thing. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Jahinho Guerro

[SpecialK]

10 hours ago, dsqpr said:

CNL is coming...

Ya CNL is gonna be great. Our best vs little minnows. This is gonna be great prep for Copa America and World Cup qualifiers.  CNL gonna be amazing for fans too Canada vs the soccer giants St.Kitts 

[Bison44]

 

15 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Ya CNL is gonna be great. Our best vs little minnows. This is gonna be great prep for Copa America and World Cup qualifiers.  CNL gonna be amazing for fans too Canada vs the soccer giants St.Kitts 

HAHA good one! You are funny. 

If I am understanding it correctly, after we beat these minnows and get into the A group, then we will face off against some combo of USA, Mex, Costa rica honduras etc.  Whats wrong with that? We arent good enough (no hex) to get the auto advance to the next stage, so we fight it out with everyone else to start off with.  And as far as whats amazing for the fans....at least we'll be forced to have games in CANADA.  Not these friendlies we play in the States or Spain.  How many of those shitty friendlies outside the country have we played where there is closed doors and no crowd.  I'd rather have St kitts in Regina, Montreal or Hamilton with 5000 fans than New Zealand in Spain with no fans.  And if Herdman using them to test out some more youngsters like Millar and Godinho then I am all for that as well.  And if they are official cap tying games even better!  

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

 

HAHA good one! You are funny. 

If I am understanding it correctly, after we beat these minnows and get into the A group, then we will face off against some combo of USA, Mex, Costa rica honduras etc.  Whats wrong with that? We arent good enough (no hex) to get the auto advance to the next stage, so we fight it out with everyone else to start off with.  And as far as whats amazing for the fans....at least we'll be forced to have games in CANADA.  Not these friendlies we play in the States or Spain.  How many of those shitty friendlies outside the country have we played where there is closed doors and no crowd.  I'd rather have St kitts in Regina, Montreal or Hamilton with 5000 fans than New Zealand in Spain with no fans.  And if Herdman using them to test out some more youngsters like Millar and Godinho then I am all for that as well.  And if they are official cap tying games even better!  

Yes you are right but that isn’t until fall 2019! A year and a half away.. so 3 matches for the rest of 2018 just won’t cut it that’s the entire point.

to expect a group of unfamiliar players to get it together and compete against big teams while only playing minnows for the past year is a pipe dream.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Keegan

[Bison44]

 

Of course thats right Keegan.  MrK was complaining about the CNL.  These fall games were not going to be prep for 2019 gold cup anyways.  And the 3 games in Sept-Nov then 1 in March is about what we usually play most years.  We can still have a camp poutine like most years in January 2019, so 5 games in 7 months.  Later on in 2019 assuming we get into group A we will have our hands full with the next set of games against teams that will probably beat us (USA/MEXICO).  My point is its easy to snark at the qualifying round, but once the CNL gets going and we are in the A group we'll have more meaningful games and more games in canada than playing friendlies.  

BUT (like we have all said), of course there is no excuse not to have some sort of game/camp with someone in the run up to WC (June).  Even if its a shitty neutral site game against someone else who missed out on WC.  I agree with you that we should pressure them to do something.  We already skipped the poutine camp and didnt we miss on a window in Nov as well?  So we should have had at least 2 more games this winter...grrrrr.  

[toontownman]

24 minutes ago, Keegan said:

to expect a group of unfamiliar players to get it together and compete against big teams while only playing minnows for the past year is a pipe dream.

More games would be great. More contact time great to. As you say the more time players can gel together they better. We are always hamstrung by this, but that is the nature of international football. 

The Toulan tournament should be a big deal for us as this will include some future key influencers and performers for our 22 world cup cycle and certainly 26.

It could, be given our European guys will be bagged from a long season, Herdman is just happy enough visiting/calling/emailing/snapchatting, whatever, the players or conference calling. Could also be we have another north American camp too. 

I agree on the more games but I think much will/should be going on even if there isn' games that can help.

[Unnamed Trialist]

There was really not a single thing I would say Herdman has altered or given us as a vision for change, expressed in our play. Nor was there any alteration of our tactical set-up in game of any note.

With one exception: Osorio. Maybe he was a default though, with Atiba out.

[mpg_29]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There was really not a single thing I would say Herdman has altered or given us as a vision for change, expressed in our play. Nor was there any alteration of our tactical set-up in game of any note.

With one exception: Osorio. Maybe he was a default though, with Atiba out.

You couldn't see The Herdology Method in action? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Keegan said:

Yes you are right but that isn’t until fall 2019! A year and a half away.. so 3 matches for the rest of 2018 just won’t cut it that’s the entire point.

to expect a group of unfamiliar players to get it together and compete against big teams while only playing minnows for the past year is a pipe dream.

Agreed. But this situation has been ongoung for many years and now CNL is finally going to address it, to some degree anyway. There is finally light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, the 3 autumn FIFA dates each have room for another fixture. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has said or even hinted that we won't have a second match against a stronger opponent in one or more of those windows. (The comment in question implied no matches only between now and Sept.)

Edited March 25, 2018 by dsqpr

[Lord Bob]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There was really not a single thing I would say Herdman has altered or given us as a vision for change, expressed in our play. Nor was there any alteration of our tactical set-up in game of any note.

With one exception: Osorio. Maybe he was a default though, with Atiba out.

You remember how Herdman took over from Morace and immediately revolutionized the team tactically?

Me neither.

[toontownman]

Wait, are people now complaining Herdman might have kept the same tactics and progress lauded under Oz when people complained it would be lost earlier? 

My head hurts. 

[soccer.shocker]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

 

Also, the 3 autumn FIFA dates each have room for another fixture. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has said or even hinted that we won't have a second match against a stronger opponent in one or more of those windows. (The comment in question implied no matches only between now and Sept.)

Hopefully the quiet summer is to budget for additional matches in the fall windows. Not sure how the Nations League is financed but surely if CONCACAF is footing part of the bill for the CNL matches it would be cheaper to piggyback a friendly into the fall windows than to set up full camps with a friendly or two in the summer.

[Grizzly]

31 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Wait, are people now complaining Herdman might have kept the same tactics and progress lauded under Oz when people complained it would be lost earlier? 

My head hurts. 

I think the strangeness and suddeness as well as expense of the change warrants people expecting something different and better than what we had with Oz. If we are really not playing until CNL matches it also makes it hard to judge if we are on the right track based on one result over a undermanned New Zealand squad. The head coach may not be the one who decides how often we play but one would at least expect him to push for more games though that is behind the scenes so hard to know if that is occurring or not. I thought we looked pretty disorganized and poor in the first half but more organized in the second. Whether that is better than we would have looked under Oz I am not sure. Herdman got the result so he passed the first test, we played alright and won against a mediocre opponent and the players seem to like him. However, in order to convince me this was the right move we need to get a string of good results against decent competition and it seems like it is going to be a long time until there is even the possibility of that happening and I personally will remain on the skeptic side until I see that. 

[soccer.shocker]

8 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

I think the strangeness and suddeness as well as expense of the change warrants people expecting something different and better than what we had with Oz.

 I thought we looked pretty disorganized and poor in the first half but more organized in the second. Whether that is better than we would have looked under Oz I am not sure.

Herdman had an exercise scientist and a mental performance person in this camp which is different and better than OZ, Floro, Findlay, Hart etc and an important step towards improving the performance culture of MNT so that is both better and different from his predecessors and I presume he has the sway with CSA to keep those aspects in play moving forward. It will take time but MNT will benefit no doubt. 

WRT the second comment I am not sure either. 

 

 

[A_Gagne]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There was really not a single thing I would say Herdman has altered or given us as a vision for change, expressed in our play. Nor was there any alteration of our tactical set-up in game of any note.

With one exception: Osorio. Maybe he was a default though, with Atiba out.

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics...” - Brian Clough

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes.” - Brian Clough

"If he wasn't interfering with play then what the fcuk was he doing on the pitch?" - Brian Clough (on an offside decision that presumably did not go his way).

Edited March 26, 2018 by dsqpr

[Grizzly]

2 hours ago, soccer.shocker said:

Herdman had an exercise scientist and a mental performance person in this camp which is different and better than OZ, Floro, Findlay, Hart etc and an important step towards improving the performance culture of MNT so that is both better and different from his predecessors and I presume he has the sway with CSA to keep those aspects in play moving forward. It will take time but MNT will benefit no doubt. 

You can't just say a guy is better because he shows up with an exercise scientist and mental performance person. You are assuming that Oz did not have that and at the very least I am pretty sure he had someone equivalent to an "exercise scientist" if not a mental performance person also. There is also a lot of debate about how useful those things are, some really believe in them and others are skeptical. I have an open mind but if given the choice between a great coach without those things and a mediocre coach with them I would definitely choose the former. 

Herdman passed the first test. We got a victory and didn't suck though against a team we should be expected to beat. However, the real test will be when we start playing the good teams of CONCACAF and when he starts having to make difficult decisions about who to call and what tactics to use. If we have a first half like against NZ in Honduras it is game over and the heat and atmosphere there will be a much bigger difficulty than the wind in Spain. New Zealand could have been up 3-0 in the first half if they could finish better and had executed the offside goal slightly better. I think both for reasons of training the team and evaluating Herdman we need to be playing at every possible opportunity and find it incredibly frustrating and discouraging that it seems we will not be. 

[Serge]

4 hours ago, Grizzly said:

if given the choice between a great coach without those things and a mediocre coach with them I would definitely choose the former. 

True but this is not the choice at hand. No disrespect to Oz. But his resume was and is nothing to write home about and his results at the helm of Canada really proved nothing. Canada played a more positive brand of football but he did it with something closer to our top players at the time. Overall his results were mixed: wins against minnows French Guiana and Curacao, ties against Costa Rica and Honduras  (teams in rebuild mode) a loss to Jamaica 1st team and a home exhibition win vs there second team. Finally a disappointing loss vs. El Salvador. Don't get me wrong, oz needed more time to be properly judged. Best thing about oz tenure is that he got Cavani back and successfully brought Davies into the fold. Likewise, its way to early to judge herdman. Seems as though he has the respect of the players, and has brought in some new guys -in particular millar. Also I'm confident Canada will find a game or two before the nations league starts. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

13 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

You couldn't see The Herdology Method in action? 

I can't figure out if a Herdman is one who is a member of a herd with herd mentality, or a man who watches over such a herd with a man's mentality.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, A_Gagne said:

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics...” - Brian Clough

Oh, does anyone else get disgusted by quotes like these? As if he thought he was actually smart. Of course there is crap about tactics, but just as much about players, and pace, and balls, and being a man--then reducing it all to a boot tackle, a flick on and a dozen wild clearances.

Now we know why England has consistently underperformed in the crunch internationally: disrespect for tactical acumen. Including the most important of all: together the players on a team interpret what is happening in real time, and collectively work to either alter the result or maintain it. You cannot do that just being a player, winning and losing games. You have to be a player who is part of a tactical or strategic set up. I mean, what the hell did Clough do training for years: work on personal development skills? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Grizzly said:

You can't just say a guy is better because he shows up with an exercise scientist and mental performance person. You are assuming that Oz did not have that and at the very least I am pretty sure he had someone equivalent to an "exercise scientist" if not a mental performance person also. There is also a lot of debate about how useful those things are, some really believe in them and others are skeptical. I have an open mind but if given the choice between a great coach without those things and a mediocre coach with them I would definitely choose the former. 

All of OZs team had studies in the US, in physio, in sports psychology, if you want to go through the bios it is all there. But if anyone has any doubts, look at OZs tweets, they are full of sharp observations about team mentality and the cutting edge of football. And about Canadian subjects, even today. 

Apart from the fact that he chose NOT to slag his former employer, however justified he might have been to do so. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Unnamed Trialist

[Gian-Luca]

13 hours ago, Grizzly said:

I think the strangeness and suddeness as well as expense of the change warrants people expecting something different and better than what we had with Oz. If we are really not playing until CNL matches it also makes it hard to judge if we are on the right track based on one result over a undermanned New Zealand squad. The head coach may not be the one who decides how often we play but one would at least expect him to push for more games though that is behind the scenes so hard to know if that is occurring or not. I thought we looked pretty disorganized and poor in the first half but more organized in the second. Whether that is better than we would have looked under Oz I am not sure. Herdman got the result so he passed the first test, we played alright and won against a mediocre opponent and the players seem to like him. However, in order to convince me this was the right move we need to get a string of good results against decent competition and it seems like it is going to be a long time until there is even the possibility of that happening and I personally will remain on the skeptic side until I see that. 

A ridiculously long time by the sounds of it. We may have just played our toughest match of 2018 and it was against a weakened NZ side. It was important to play and the match was really useful for bringing the likes of Millar, Godinho, Wotherspoon and (even though he didn't play) Cornelius into the senior team fold. But in terms of quality and where we stand all we really proved in that match is that, possibly we have more depth than NZ (given how many of our own players were also missing). Given that "do we have more depth than New Zealand" is probably about in about 782,423rd place in our list of burning questions of whether we can win Gold Cups and qualify (without hosting) World Cups, we should be looking to test ourselves against the better teams in the region. Beating Dominica and the US Virgin Islands is really a no-win situation which won't prove a thing - if we win, even by big scores, it's because we're expected to.

The Canadian media should actually be putting public pressure on the CSA to do more here but I haven't heard or seen any criticism in this regard.