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2018 CONCACAF Champions League

Ansem

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Ansem Veteran

Ansem

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Club Index

http://www.concacaf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/CONCACAF-Club-Ranking-for-the-2018-Champions-League-Draw_BRANDED.pdf

 

Pot 1
Tigres UANL (MEX)
Chivas de Guadalajara (MEX)
Club América (MEX)
Xolos de Tijuana (MEX)
Seattle Sounders (USA)
FC Dallas (USA)
New York Red Bulls (USA)
Toronto FC (CAN)

Pot 2
Colorado Rapids (USA)
Deportivo Saprissa (CRC)
Herediano (CRC-GUA)
Motagua (HON)
Santa Tecla (SLV)
Tauro (PAN)
Cibao FC (DOM)
Olimpia (HON)

 

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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I am very glad to see the club index! Some thoughts on it.

I had attempted to create the same thing a bit over a year ago. My results were similar to what we see with the club index but there were some differences in how I calculated it. In my calculations I had both Costa Rican teams in the top 8 and only 1 American team. The other 5 were Canada and the Mexican teams. The differences were that I counted 2 legged games as a single game, and I used points per game rather than straight up points. I also only gave 1 extra point for winning the tournament instead of 2, and I didn't give 4 participation points, but those don't matter with the results we have so far.

I have now tried to replicate their results in my spreadsheet and I've come close, but there are still differences. I still have 1 Costa Rican team in the top pot. I imagine the reasons I can't reproduce their numbers perfectly is due to my guesswork on which slot to count points for when a team qualifies more than once to the same tournament (Ex: US Open Cup champs and Supporters Shield champs), and possibly they've done something to deal with the results for spots that are no longer in the tournament (like a 3rd Costa Rican team that has played in place of Belize).

As for the formula that they have created, the 2 legged ties are a bit fuzzy. For example, a team that draws both of their games in a 2 legged tie and moves on due to away goals will get fewer points (2) than a team that loses big in the first leg, and gets a consolation/meaningless win in the 2nd leg and gets eliminated (3). I guess after the bonus point for advancing they will end up even, but that still doesn't seem right to me. That being said, with my method the problem was that teams that advanced to the next round would get a bonus point, but then their points per game would take a hit for losing in the next round. So I didn't have that great a solution either. Their version is probably better.

The fact that they have 4 points given out for participation makes me wonder if there could potentially be a form of promotion and relegation between the CONCACAF League and CCL. Otherwise, there is no point that I can figure out to the 4 points for showing up. It's kind of like if every soccer game started out tied 4-4 instead of 0-0, it would make no difference. If there were promotion and relegation then the 4 points for CCL spots may be there to offset the fact that you are playing tougher competition than the teams in the CONCACAF League (which presumably would get 0 points for participation). Then they could potentially use the same club index across both competitions. So if Canada does get a spot in the CONCACAF League (in addition to the CCL spot we have now) and the results are good enough over the span of a few years, perhaps we could move up to the top pot in CONCACAF League and then eventually up to a second spot in the CCL. Hopefully we hear more details about this by the draw for the next iteration of the CONCACAF League.

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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20 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

One of those MLS teams is not like the others. 

Colorado were just barely squeezed out. The club index points for the MLS spots are 76,73,73,71,71. For comparison, one spot above that cluster is a Mexican spot with 101 points, and one below the cluster is a Costa Rican slot at 65 points.

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harrycoyster Contributor

harrycoyster

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Just now, Kent said:

Colorado were just barely squeezed out. The club index points for the MLS spots are 76,73,73,71,71. For comparison, one spot above that cluster is a Mexican spot with 101 points, and one below the cluster is a Costa Rican slot at 65 points.

Speaking more to the fact that they are in the tournament in the first pace. They have to worst roster in MLS heading into next season. Colorado's 2016 run was so strange. 

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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10 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Speaking more to the fact that they are in the tournament in the first pace. They have to worst roster in MLS heading into next season. Colorado's 2016 run was so strange. 

True, but MLS teams that people thought were poor have outdone better teams in the past. Of the 5 "MLS" slots in the tournament the two best performing have been the MLS Cup runners up (which more recently is the non-Supporters Shield winning conference champion) and the Voyageurs Cup champion (which has been won by non-playoff teams several times). So we shall see how it all unfolds, but Colorado will have a tough draw, either TFC or a Mexican team.

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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OK, I've done a bit more work and I can replicate the club index numbers CONCACAF came up with. I had 2 mistakes (better me than them!) that I've cleared up, and as I suspected there was some jumbling of which team is which. Interestingly enough they did things like use the score for the Caribbean champions, but the Caribbean runners up would have scored higher (but still come in last).

Another note, Guatemala would have been ahead of El Salvador in the club index if they weren't currently banned by FIFA. Missing out on this tournament though will have to drop them lower though (10 points worth I think... but possibly 13 depending on which Guatemalan team's results are dropped out of the 5 year cycle).

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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Not a good draw for TFC.  Seems that they stacked all the good clubs on the same side of the draw as TFC.    All the other half decent MLS sides are on the other side.  Should they get by Colorado (which will playing a game in wintery and high altitude Denver in Feb) TFC will like face a Mexican club right from the get go.  

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to70 Enthusiast

to70

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If a team wants to win the championship,which TFC does, you have to beat the best of the rest. AS far as I'm concerned it shouldn't matter whether it's in the first round or the finals. Might in fact be a little easier to defeat a good team in an earlier round.

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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On 12/18/2017 at 8:00 PM, Gian-Luca said:

TFC boringly draws Colorado for the Champions league. For the sake of variety I was hoping for any team but that one.

Colorado was also, based on the history of this tournament,  the toughest possible opponent that TFC could have drawn.  There were two pots and in the pot of possible opponent for TFC there was the Rapids and all central american sides excluding mexican clubs.  MLS sides have, historically, had a difficult time with mexican clubs but very little trouble with the central american clubs.  

Then there is the fact of the altitiude and that this season Colorado have surprised TFC. 

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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On 2017-12-18 at 8:00 PM, Gian-Luca said:

TFC boringly draws Colorado for the Champions league. For the sake of variety I was hoping for any team but that one.

One of these two teams will play out their entire Champions League run without playing a team from outside of their league. It occurred to me this week that this will likely be the first time ever, anywhere in the World that this will happen. Unfortunately I don't have any reasonable way of confirming or disproving that.

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Gian-Luca Grand Master

Gian-Luca

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

One of these two teams will play out their entire Champions League run without playing a team from outside of their league. It occurred to me this week that this will likely be the first time ever, anywhere in the World that this will happen. Unfortunately I don't have any reasonable way of confirming or disproving that.

Are you including V Cup matches in the “run”? Because TFC played Ottawa this year

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

Are you including V Cup matches in the “run”? Because TFC played Ottawa this year

No. Once qualified for the Champions League. Whether that's the Champions League proper or probably even if you include preliminary rounds, for example in UEFA.

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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I really hope that they come to their sences and ditch this hairbrained idea of playing that game in February at BMO field.  

Yes, that cup game on December 10th worked and went off without a hitch.  Nobody, who was there, noticed it was December.   

Yes, last years final was also played in December and the weather was not a factor for the game, players nor the fans.

Yes,  given that bmo was not climatized, they once played a CCL game against LA Galaxy on March 8th in Skydome on a day where the weather outside was pleasant.  

In those examples, they got lucky. But they’re now pushing their luck.   In Canada in Jan and Feb, an outdoor game could be in weather like today.  There is no way, i am standing outdoors for 2 hrs in this weather.   The game is made to be played in various climates but not this, nor in 6 inches of snow.  which can be expected in Feb..  Skydome Please!.  Who else is using it in Feb?

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Blackdude Newbie

Blackdude

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7 hours ago, Free kick said:

I really hope that they come to their sences and ditch this hairbrained idea of playing that game in February at BMO field.  

Yes, that cup game on December 10th worked and went off without a hitch.  Nobody, who was there, noticed it was December.   

Yes, last years final was also played in December and the weather was not a factor for the game, players nor the fans.

Yes,  given that bmo was not climatized, they once played a CCL game against LA Galaxy on March 8th in Skydome on a day where the weather outside was pleasant.  

In those examples, they got lucky. But they’re now pushing their luck.   In Canada in Jan and Feb, an outdoor game could be in weather like today.  There is no way, i am standing outdoors for 2 hrs in this weather.   The game is made to be played in various climates but not this, nor in 6 inches of snow.  which can be expected in Feb..  Skydome Please!.  Who else is using it in Feb?

With the dirt infield, I'm pretty sure you can't play at the Skydome. 

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