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Confirmed: FC Edmonton whitdraws from NASL


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1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Everything said before the but in a sentence tends to be a way to soften the blow on the important bad news part that follows. Would have been better if what had followed that part had been something along the lines of, "...and we look forward to exploring our future participation in that league with Paul Beirne and the groups that are interested in other cities".

That's not the way I read it.  He is saying precisely the things I would expect a business guy to say at this stage.  The team needs fan support and support from corporate sponsors to be successful?  That is hardly a damning indictment.  And he has no reason whatsoever to overplay his hand at this point.  He wants to preserve as much leverage as possible so that he can get support from sponsors and the city.  

And if he were folding, why keep the academy?  And why not rule out a move to CPL now if that was actually his intention?  If he was truly planning to fold, why would he drag it out and then disappoint people once again when he kills the idea rather than simply ripping the bandaid off right now and being done with it?  If he was just strategically trying to "soften the blow" as you say, doing it twice seems to be the worst way to do it.  I just don't see it happening.

But even if FCEd did fold, I still maintain that opening the market to CPL is a net positive over the long term.  The rivalry possibilities with Calgary are huge, it is one of the strongest non-MLS markets the league can tap, and the groundwork for a realistic level of pro footy has been laid.  There will be some level of panic about this announcement, and definitely some level of understandable uncertainty, but in the end, this was still a necessary step in any eventual move to CPL - or at least in opening that market to an Edmonton-based CPL club, agnostic of ownership group.

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https://the11.ca/fath-fc-edmonton-will-not-return-in-any-league-unless-edmonton-proves-soccer-can-be-sustainable/

...If the team is to re-start, Fath says he needs to see better corporate support, and sponsorships. The team had a kit deal with Sears Financial through the first couple of years of its existence, but hasn’t had a shirt sponsor since.

And, if the market doesn’t show that it can be better for soccer, “it won’t happen,” Fath said...

Looks like the we are going on hiatus routine that folding franchises often go through to hold out a sliver of hope before never coming back.

As for what it means for CanPL, there was never any gaurantee that the Faths would get the franchise there from what I can see, and Clarke Stadium isn't going anywhere. Only question would be what happens to the "big blue" seating that Tom Fath paid to install and whether the capacity is sufficient to have a shot at breaking even with the league's envisaged business model. 5000 seats (assuming the "big blue" seating remains) is on the small side for what CanPL usually tends to mention on crowd expectations and that may be a big part of why there is a concern about sustainability given:

...“Of all the years we have been in the league, how many times did we sell out?” he asked. (A couple of times.)...

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3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not sure how that is an epitaph.  He "loves the idea" - that is actually one of the most positive things he has said about the prospect.  Issuing a caveat that it needs to be sustainable is hardly a death knell - it is common sense business practice and perfectly understandable after his experience in NASL.  And he is a business guy.  Keeping his options open, avoiding any premature public commitments, and trying to give himself some levers for future discussions with the city and corporate community  is what any good businessman would do.

I guess I am in the clear minority, but under that circumstances and given the context as I know it (or at least believe it to be), I think this was the ideal time to take the necessary step of leaving NASL if he was ever to put a team in CPL.

By leaving this year, he gets to pay a $100k exit fee.  That would rise to $5M if the league regained D2 status or once again hit a critical mass of teams.  People have talked about the idea that NASL might have waived the fee just to get rid of the Canadian club, but as far as I can tell that is just blue-sky speculation on here with no real evidence behind it.   The risk of another $4.9M in penalties means that leaving the league this year was the only safe option if CPL is the long term play.  

And by continuing the academy, FCEd still has skin in the game.  Why would he do that unless he planned to continue on with a soccer venture?  He is carrying on with an expense line that doesn't generate much, if any, revenue.  That doesn't sound to me like a guy who is cashing out.  If a move to CPL (at the speculated budget) was planned, a crop of pro-trained young players would be a huge asset - and that is precisely what he is setting himself up to have.  

Finally, this development opens up one of Canada's absolute strongest markets for a CPL franchise - regardless of the ownership group. I sincerely hope that it is Fath's FCEd 2.0 given all that he has done for soccer and his demonstrated commitment, but the main thing is that the market is now open for CPL.  Having FCEd continue in NASL would have effectively locked CPL out of that market indefinitely.  That was always going to be a huge barrier for the league.  That barrier is no longer in place.

I am sure I will be told that I am wrong, but I am cheering this decision.  

In terms of keeping the academy it all depends on what kind of academy they are keeping, if it's a free to play academy then yes It's a positive because why spend all that money on an academy if you have no aspirations of eventually bringing a pro team back to Edmonton in a future CPL. However, if it's a pay for play Academy as most are in Canada then I would not read that much into it in regards to bring back a pro team, because then they would just be keeping it as a business where parents pay to have their kids play and they can actually turn a profit like many soccer pay for play academies do in Canada.

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2017-06-13 Montréal, Québec, Canada Men's International Friendly CAN MNT 2 - 1 CUW Stade Saputo

6,026

 

I pulled that from the National team page.  Yeah looks like under 5000....what was I thinking??  And I didnt have to look very hard to find some BMO held WCQ games against minnows that were 9.7-11,000.  Not exactly barn burners.  

 

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38 minutes ago, Bison44 said:
2017-06-13 Montréal, Québec, Canada Men's International Friendly CAN MNT 2 - 1 CUW Stade Saputo

6,026

 

I pulled that from the National team page.  Yeah looks like under 5000....what was I thinking??  And I didnt have to look very hard to find some BMO held WCQ games against minnows that were 9.7-11,000.  Not exactly barn burners.  

 

Where you at the game? I was and there's no way that was the actual attendance. The point is you're advocating moving games around but when the second largest city in the country can't draw more than 5 000 on a beautiful night in the middle of summer, with two hometown players, one in his first match in Montreal and the other in his last with the MNT, then any other city than those who have proven to draw fans is a huge risk.

And to the point about the recorded number specifically, I shared a ferry ride with a senior executive of the CSA on the way to a WCQ in Toronto once and when I asked about how many tickets were sold he very clearly indicated that there was the announced number and the actual number. Every sports club in the world fudges attendance numbers, and had the CSA announced the actual number of fans at Saputo it would have been even more embarrassing than 6 026.

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18 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Edmonton to Miami is cheaper than flying to Halifax, similar to Ottawa.

Edmonton to New York is lower than Halifax, Ottawa, and similar to Hamilton.

Don't think the travel expenses in CPL will be a whole lot less if the league is coast to coast(no Puerto Rico is great though) and its impact is overrated.

TV : FC Edmonton was televised locally for most  years of NASL although not this year. NASL had National TV deal with Bein Sports but clubs had to pay a fee for the enhanced production. If CPL can get a TV deal which actually pays $ to the clubs instead of only ad sharing like NASL has had it a plus, but don't see that happening the first few years at least.

Rivalries : Both league's have/would have their glam markets and blah markets, better rivalries will be made in CPL.

Marketing : Clubs usually do most of the marketing, CPL may or may not assist much in that regard.

Finances and Sponsorship : CPL is the winner here as far as CDN $ concerned and sponsorship as a D1 league as well.

 

Problem is Fath wants to see support for a CPL club but hard to see that unless he joins the league as far as fan support goes. Maybe he's angling for stadium upgrades to Clarke partly by saying this and maybe he also wants more of an independent club type league (more in tune with the rest of the world) that he's stated he believes in as opposed to a single entity/franchise one and wants to pressure for his preferred model. With CPL I think Fath will be out, or maybe in if he has additional investor joining for CPL but won't go it alone. 

 

So the entire CPL is going to be out east? Don’t forget that in the CPL there will hopefully be short trips to Calgary, Saskatchewan, Surrey, and Winnipeg. They could Bus to Calgary. And flights to the other places are way cheaper than all the NASL flight except San Francisco (about the same or just under San Fran). Some of the flights will still be bad. Close teams always help. 

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So what are we supposed to use if everyone pads the stats a bit??  Rely on first hand accounts of how many people they estimate were there??  I'm sure those wont vary widely from person to person and be grossly innacurate.  And I didnt need to rub shoulders with a CSA offical to know that announced and actual can be very different.  

 I'm saying when you compare the announced attendance, there have been WCQ games in BMO that have been in the 9-11000 range.  Not  a lot better considering those were important games.  Sure everyone was disapointed montreal didnt have a big rocking crowd but you dont have to shit on the rest of the country and pull back to a "only toronto and vancouver" can host a game mentality.  Or maybe you can, and we'll never see if soccer can grow across the country

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16 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Maybe history will prove me wrong, but I don't think so.  

Not sure if you are a betting man, but I will wager a 1-month posting hiatus that FCEd is in CPL if/when the league launches.

No interest in betting with anybody on this stuff as I am not emotionally invested in the outcome and will happily change my mind if shown solid evidence that points in the other direction. That's what I was trained to do in professional terms, so it seeps into how I view stuff like this. Think it's noteworthy given Steven Sandor has been cheerleading CanPL quite strongly in recent months that he is going out of his way to point out that Tom Fath isn't on board with CanPL at this point. If he is as downbeat as this about FCE being involved:

https://the11.ca/fces-move-to-cease-operations-is-a-bad-sign-for-canpl-edmonton-world-cup-boosters/

it's probably best to pay attention. And he is bang on the money with this bit, in my opinion:

Plus, on the PR side, it doesn’t help anyone trying to sell the notion of CanPL that the owner of a team in Canada’s fifth-largest city (and an economic power, one of the fastest growing cities in North America) is now openly on the fence when it comes to viability of soccer outside of MLS. If it doesn’t work in Edmonton, will it work in Halifax? Winnipeg?

I'd be a lot more confident about CanPL ever actually getting anywhere if they were talking about paid attendance crowds in the 2500-4000 range rather than numbers like 6000 and occasionally even 8000.

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While the fate of FC Edmonton was sealed with the impending demise of the NASL, brought on by some seriously misguided management of the league and its aspirations, the real fault of FC Edmonton's demise, and of every previous professional soccer endeavour in this city, lies directly with the so-called soccer fans than can never be bothered to support the local team.

Drillers, Eagles, Brickmen, Drillers (again), Aviators and now FC Edmonton, all suffered from fan apathy.  Even in their best seasons the soccer fans of this city have failed as a group to get behind these efforts.  In the Faths, Edmonton had possibly its best hope for long-term survival of the professional game. With the NASL Drillers and the Brickmen, and later the NPSL Drillers, Edmonton soccer fans had to deal with the capricious nature of Peter Pocklington as an owner. In their final season, the NPSL Drillers were run by an ambivalent Wojteck Wojicki, who I later learned cared more about grid iron football than the round ball version.  The 2004 A-League Aviators are a chapter best not discussed in polite company, suffice to say they got it wrong from the beginning and it got worse as their only season went on.

In Tom and Dave Fath, the city had owners who were committed to making it work, FOR THE FANS. Unfortunately, many Edmonton soccer fans could care less.  Too many Edmonton soccer fans, raised on European and South American football, can't be bothered to support the local product because it doesn't live up to their standards.  Well good for you, you have your wish, the only professional soccer you will see in Edmonton for the foreseeable future is on TV and live streams.

The modern NASL is flawed in both its makeup (primarily a southeastern US league) and its philosophy (seeing itself as a challenger to MLS).  The NASL had an opportunity to secure its future a few years ago when MLS floated a partnership option to them.  Seeing themselves as MLS's rival, the league dismissed the offer outright and chose to continue to go it alone.  The USL, on the other hand, a third division league at the time, accepted a similar offer from MLS and has now supplanted the NASL as the division two league.  That league also includes three former NASL clubs.  But even if FC Edmonton and the NASL had been given the opportunity to flourish, I doubt the soccer fans of this city would have ever gotten behind the project.

Professional soccer in North America has had its struggles over the past 50 years, and now, thanks to hard work by many in MLS and the support of fans in cities across that league, it is finally establishing roots.  What soccer fans in Edmonton need to realize is that you will never have soccer equal in calibre to the great European or South American teams without many years of mediocre and, in some cases, very weak on field products.  Without the opportunity to compete, the product does not grow, but also without support the product cannot exist.  If all the soccer fans in Edmonton care about is watching soccer on TV, then they need do no more than they have done in the past 40 years, however if they wish to have a strong and competitive team to call their own, they need to support whatever comes out next, Win, Lose or Draw, every game.

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I don't get why people are still talking about the friendly game vs Curaçao in Montreal. It was a friendly! Against freakin Curaçao! Big deal. Lots of football countries that have hosted us had way worse attendance or even Zero attendance.

If we are saying there's not much love for the CSA in Montreal well that's a no brainer, it's not Montreal pre-1980s. Did the CSA honestly think they can take a hiatus, put in a couple of Impact players (Piette wasn't an Impact player yet) and throw up a few online ads on their site en français to convince Montréalers? The only people that go on their site and watch their streams are us. And as for Canadian soccer fans there aren't many there and if there are Soccer players/viewers in Quebec I bet they're 1 not dishing out the prices of tickets to see Curaçao and 2 they would rather support Italy, Portugal, Greece, Morroco, Argentina, Brazil, France etc, etc before cheering on or going to see Canada unless it was against an opponent of one of those countries which they'd likely cheer for that team. 

I seriously doubt that you'd get 6,000 at Commonwealth for the exact same match and context. In 2008 they apparently drew 14,000 vs Sven's Mexico, and even though we were eliminated, it's still a WCQ, still Mexico w Rafa Marquez and co and Canada w Tomasz Radzinski and Ali G and they even had homeboy Lars Hirschfeld! I doubt it was 14,000. I was there, looked more like 10,000 (and we should've won that game).

As for FCE it's pretty sad but I don't blame the Faths. How long can you go on losing cash until you say stop. Edmonton only supports the Oilers and Esks.

 

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On 11/26/2017 at 12:50 PM, Drillers81 said:

While the fate of FC Edmonton was sealed with the impending demise of the NASL, brought on by some seriously misguided management of the league and its aspirations, the real fault of FC Edmonton's demise, and of every previous professional soccer endeavour in this city, lies directly with the so-called soccer fans than can never be bothered to support the local team.

Drillers, Eagles, Brickmen, Drillers (again), Aviators and now FC Edmonton, all suffered from fan apathy.  Even in their best seasons the soccer fans of this city have failed as a group to get behind these efforts.  In the Faths, Edmonton had possibly its best hope for long-term survival of the professional game. With the NASL Drillers and the Brickmen, and later the NPSL Drillers, Edmonton soccer fans had to deal with the capricious nature of Peter Pocklington as an owner. In their final season, the NPSL Drillers were run by an ambivalent Wojteck Wojicki, who I later learned cared more about grid iron football than the round ball version.  The 2004 A-League Aviators are a chapter best not discussed in polite company, suffice to say they got it wrong from the beginning and it got worse as their only season went on.

In Tom and Dave Fath, the city had owners who were committed to making it work, FOR THE FANS. Unfortunately, many Edmonton soccer fans could care less.  Too many Edmonton soccer fans, raised on European and South American football, can't be bothered to support the local product because it doesn't live up to their standards.  Well good for you, you have your wish, the only professional soccer you will see in Edmonton for the foreseeable future is on TV and live streams.

The modern NASL is flawed in both its makeup (primarily a southeastern US league) and its philosophy (seeing itself as a challenger to MLS).  The NASL had an opportunity to secure its future a few years ago when MLS floated a partnership option to them.  Seeing themselves as MLS's rival, the league dismissed the offer outright and chose to continue to go it alone.  The USL, on the other hand, a third division league at the time, accepted a similar offer from MLS and has now supplanted the NASL as the division two league.  That league also includes three former NASL clubs.  But even if FC Edmonton and the NASL had been given the opportunity to flourish, I doubt the soccer fans of this city would have ever gotten behind the project.

Professional soccer in North America has had its struggles over the past 50 years, and now, thanks to hard work by many in MLS and the support of fans in cities across that league, it is finally establishing roots.  What soccer fans in Edmonton need to realize is that you will never have soccer equal in calibre to the great European or South American teams without many years of mediocre and, in some cases, very weak on field products.  Without the opportunity to compete, the product does not grow, but also without support the product cannot exist.  If all the soccer fans in Edmonton care about is watching soccer on TV, then they need do no more than they have done in the past 40 years, however if they wish to have a strong and competitive team to call their own, they need to support whatever comes out next, Win, Lose or Draw, every game.

 

Has Edmonton ever been pitched a D1 league? Is it the market or the circumstances that sunk all those teams?

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5 hours ago, Ansem said:

 

Has Edmonton ever been pitched a D1 league? Is it the market or the circumstances that sunk all those teams?

The Drillers were D1 in the original NASL and the Brickmen were D1 in the original CSL. He left out the Eagles who were champions of the only season of the CPSL, which was roughly comparable to what CanPL want to be in terms of being a domestic pro league running in parallel with a higher profile North American D1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_(1983)

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2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The Drillers were D1 in the original NASL and the Brickmen were D1 in the original CSL. He left out the Eagles who were champions of the only season of the CPSL, which was roughly comparable to what CanPL want to be in terms of being a domestic pro league running in parallel with a higher profile North American D1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_(1983)

All the leagues you're mentioning above were perhaps D1 but were poorly ran and were hardly "major" like the other sports. For soccer, it's accurate to say that Edmonton haven't been pitched a "major" soccer league yet.

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2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

All the leagues you're mentioning above were perhaps D1 but were poorly ran and were hardly "major" like the other sports. For soccer, it's accurate to say that Edmonton haven't been pitched a "major" soccer league yet.

Depends on how you define as "major".  Of the options currently available, MLS has probably 40 better options and I still have my doubts about the overall viability of the CPL (or a team in Edmonton drawing significantly more than FCE did).

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Of course not.  But I think the point is the Fath's put their heart and soul (and not small amounts of money) behind the club and the city of Edmonton and they had to give up.  I will support the CPL and hopefully Edmonton will be there but I don't expect a CPL team to do a ton better than FCE..  

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People need to read what Fath said again. 

Was it the people/fans that let the product down or the surrounding circumstances?

No TV

No Rivalries

No support from NASL

No support from City of Edmonton 

No support from Corporate Edmonton

 

Not being on TV, playing against teams that no one cares about makes it truly hard to get sponsorship money, which can be use to upgrade/build a new stadium, invest in marketing and reinvest in the team.

Hard for city of Edmonton to pour public funds in a team who's in a failed league with no business plan.

How you going to attract fans under those circumstances? 

Edmonton of all cities can be a soccer market but CPL will have their work cut out for them to address those issues so investors wants to get involved 

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I still believe that if the MLS expanded to Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg and even Ottawa it would work, however, it's not happening so the next best thing is for the CPL to get off the ground and with proper marketing and with natural rivals built in that the NASL never had for a city like Edmonton maybe it can be sustainable , start with trying to get crowds of 5000 and then grow from there, get companies to invest in modular stadiums, modular stadiums built with soccer in mind. I will guarantee you that if most CPL teams were to play in 4 sided 5 to 10000 seat modular stadiums this thing would take off. Look at the MLS when the majority of teams were playing in big NFL stadiums the atmosphere sucked and attendances were pretty bad, with the smaller soccer specific stadiums built attendances got better and the league became more sustainable, stadiums and atmosphere play such a big role therefore this is something the CPL needs to eventually try to get most teams into soccer specific type stadiums as much as possible.   

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On 11/28/2017 at 6:04 AM, Ansem said:

No TV

No Rivalries

No support from NASL

No support from City of Edmonton 

No support from Corporate Edmonton

Not being on TV, playing against teams that no one cares about makes it truly hard to get sponsorship money, which can be use to upgrade/build a new stadium, invest in marketing and reinvest in the team.

Hard for city of Edmonton to pour public funds in a team who's in a failed league with no business plan.

FC Edmonton was on TV, they did play vs teams that fans wanted to see(Miami FC, New York Cosmos who usually drew well when coming to Edmonton) and others that fans were less excited about.

They had rivalries with Minnesota and Ottawa but granted, there'd be better rivalry potential in CPL with a Calgary club and others.

Fath said they had support from the league in previous interviews.

The club didn't market seriously so their profile in the city was poor, contributing to the lack of sponsorship. They also didn't have stellar management over the years.

NASL not a failed league for the first 5 years but failing for the last 2 seasons where FCE drew better this year (club high 3418 per game) when the league has been at its weakest.

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In found it interesting to read Fath’s comments that in order to break even, they needed  to averge 9k per game. I recall at the time that Lynx were around, it was understood that the Hartrell’s needed a 5k per game average.   What this tells us, is that travel costs ARE a major impediment and cost to operating in Edmonton.  The Hatrells could bus their players to several, if not most, away games.   

https://globalnews.ca/news/3879663/fc-edmonton-folds-after-7-seasons-in-professional-soccer/

In most cases also, its cheaper to fly from canada to US cities  than it is to fly within canada.  There is more frequencies and competition on US bound routes. 

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1 hour ago, Free kick said:

In found it interesting to read Fath’s comments that in order to break even, they needed  to averge 9k per game. I recall at the time that Lynx were around, it was understood that the Hartrell’s needed a 5k per game average.   What this tells us, is that travel costs ARE a major impediment and cost to operating in Edmonton.  The Hatrells could bus their players to several, if not most, away games.   

https://globalnews.ca/news/3879663/fc-edmonton-folds-after-7-seasons-in-professional-soccer/

In most cases also, its cheaper to fly from canada to US cities  than it is to fly within canada.  There is more frequencies and competition on US bound routes. 

Good point on the flight costs to US and Canadian cities. I think at first the CPL needs East and West divisions of 4 teams each and play maybe 4 games in your own division and 2 vs the other divisions teams to help keep travel costs down. Single table is the most favored ultimate goal but until the league is stable and grown in stature as well it may have to wait a few years.

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