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CDNFootballer

Metro Vancouver CPL Club

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't get how people don't see that stadiums like Westhills and what you get in Calgary are not sustainable in the long term. You cannot ask your entire fan base, or say 95%, to drive. You have to allow it to be mixed up, between walking, biking even, public transit and private vehicles.

Pacific has had poor numbers, and if Cavalry were not winning, they would be halved. York9 is another question, since they are going to move. 

What we are talking about in the Fraser Valley is not comparable to some of the places proposed for south of the river in Montreal. 

 

 The danger of building a cathedral downtown 

A. The land is EXPENSIVE as F....

B.No way the city remotely entertains giving you that kind of piece of prime land without making it worth their while by adding so much extra expenses in infrastructure perks.

C. Even then, you have no track records, no history of sellout attendances.

D. No guarantees that you will be viable, let alone still in business in 5 years...and then what? You declare bankruptcy and the city is stuck with a useless stadium costing them more to maintain?

That's not how it works.

Those teams are playing the long game and are being safe. If one day the teams are 

1-Sellouts constantly 

2-Waiting list for season tickets 

3-Track record of revenue and attendance

4-Other suburbs competing for that business 

5-The league is HOT coast to coast and have prestige, viability and enough value

6-Owners are willing to build a project complimenting the stadium 

Then it makes sense to go downtown and invest in a bigger project

Look at Saskatoon...Belan wanted his stadium downtown, city wouldn't give up the land, certainly not under market value.

That's why the "Stadiums" are the roadblock to expansion. The prospective cities aren't Halifax, they arent willing to give up prime land on the cheap to multimillionaires...who wants it on the cheap to minimize their own risks.

You got to make a case to get that "discount". Montreal isn't playing ball with Impact and even the HABS...what makes you think that Victoria or Nenshi would be any different? Ask the Flames and FC Edmonton how it went with the city

Nothing prevents some teams to move to better locations on the future when the fanbase justifies it and build stadiums they control

 

Edited by Ansem

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7 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

As someone who lives in the valley/Metro Van suburbs spursflu post is spot on. I avoid going into Vancouver City as much as possible. Luckily there's all that's needed to work, live, play in the Valley/suburbs.

Thank you someone from the Valley not someone from Vancouver telling me what people in the Valley think which ironically kinda proves my point. By the way i was born and lowered in Surrey so I do have a perspective here

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2 hours ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

1.  The Vancouver Giants attendance since moving to Langley has been horrible.

2.  The Vancouver Stealth left the LEC because of a league worst attendance to move downtown with success

3.  Abbotsford Heat....no words need to be spoken on this one

The team needs to be located in Vancouver proper or off the Skytrain line.  Trust me, if a team is put in any of the places you mentioned, no one from Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby will make the drive the Langley/Cloverdale/Clayton Heights.

I live in Vancouver and I'm certain I am not alone in my line of thinking.  If a team gets put in Langley, I MIGHT attend one game per year.  If the team goes to Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby, New West, North Surrey...sign me up for a full season

1) Giants averaged 5169 their last year in Vancouver(actual turnstile bums in the seat was 3332), they drew 3826 at the LEC and save 300k with the move to Langley.

2) Stealth started well with 9900 but slowly tailed off during the year, finishing the year with 5200 and 6685 for their last 2 games of the season. There were also lots of free tickets given out for games as they struggled to fill the much bigger arena. At my work someone would have large blocks of tickets and would try to give away up to 4 free tickets per person to whoever wanted. Lots of no shows thru the season as well as expected with many tickets being free.

3) Abbotsford Heat : the only word needed "Calgary" as it wasn't even seen as a local team.

 

In the end its somewhat a moot point as a CPL club must be out of the Whitecaps market, so Vancouver city proper, Richmond, Burnaby are all out as locations in reality imo.

Edited by CDNFootballer

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14 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Well there are rumours of an 86ers team in the tier 3 league so all the turncoats can fill their boots

Wait....whaaaat?

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5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Thank you someone from the Valley not someone from Vancouver telling me what people in the Valley think which ironically kinda proves my point. By the way i was born and lowered in Surrey so I do have a perspective here

I use to live in the Valley but know that the better paying job are still in Vancouver.  Many Surreyites don’t travel to Langley and even most people from Langley don’t consider themselves Metro Van citizens.  Valley FC will be honestly be competing more with the BC Lions demographics than Whitecaps fans TBH.  The heart of the BC Lions fans are thr Surrey, Langley, Abbotsford and Chilliwack, which is pretty much the Valley.  If they can scoop some of those fans, might make it more sustainable for the team.

edit:  I’ll agree that more and more “families” particularly blue collar are moving towards Surrey, Langley, Valley area.  The urban yuppies and rich asians are the ones that live in Metro Van.  Every inch of land there is worth too much for a family to grow

Edited by nolbertos

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I admit I am getting bogged down in silly arguments. My real opinion is that anywhere that works is fine for a CPL franchise in the Fraser Valley. If they know how to properly engage the fans and "local" support, and get people out, then I'll be thrilled. 

Personally, even at the Langley Events Centre, I would go to every match I could even though I live in the centre of Vancouver when in the city. It is not entirely convenient, but I think it would work. 

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13 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

1) Giants averaged 5169 their last year in Vancouver(actual turnstile bums in the seat was 3332), they drew 3826 at the LEC and save 300k with the move to Langley.

2) Stealth started well with 9900 but slowly tailed off during the year, finishing the year with 5200 and 6685 for their last 2 games of the season. There were also lots of free tickets given out for games as they struggled to fill the much bigger arena. At my work someone would have large blocks of tickets and would try to give away up to 4 free tickets per person to whoever wanted. Lots of no shows thru the season as well as expected with many tickets being free.

3) Abbotsford Heat : the only word needed "Calgary" as it wasn't even seen as a local team.

 

In the end its somewhat a moot point as a CPL club must be out of the Whitecaps market, so Vancouver city proper, Richmond, Burnaby are all out as locations in reality imo.

How was this not sustainable for NLL?  Their salaries are even lower than CPL.

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I live in the valley, I'm a lacrosse and Giants fan, and I've actively avoided going to the the games in Langley because the traffic has always been such a **** show and there's nothing to do before/after the game.  Same with the Heat when they were in Abbotsford.  I enjoyed the AHL product, but everything around that arena was a nightmare.

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19 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

1) Giants averaged 5169 their last year in Vancouver(actual turnstile bums in the seat was 3332), they drew 3826 at the LEC and save 300k with the move to Langley.

 

Yes, and how many bums in seats out of that 3826?  Much less I assume.  Don't compare apples and oranges.  The ONLY reason they went to Langley is to save 300K because the PNE charges way too much.   Surrey is on the verge of building a bigger arena and Langley will be losing that team in no time.

Edited by DrFitzpatrick

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7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I live in the valley, I'm a lacrosse and Giants fan, and I've actively avoided going to the the games in Langley because the traffic has always been such a **** show and there's nothing to do before/after the game.  Same with the Heat when they were in Abbotsford.  I enjoyed the AHL product, but everything around that arena was a nightmare.

My experience is totally different : Traffic can be an issue (like many places) in morning and afternoon rush hour on the Freeway Monday to Friday and can extend from the outlets and inlets to it but games aren't really scheduled at that time anyways. I go into Langley a few times a week and the area around the LEC has no big issues. Went to the big car show in Aldergrove today and saw no **** show going thru the area.

As for nothing to do before or after the game, not sure what your looking for but there's a whole lot of restaurants and some bars as well close by with more in the works.

Edited by CDNFootballer

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If the first season has shown anything it is that stadium location is very important, so if the Reddit post is correct:

It makes sense why the BC Lions training location would be the preferred site:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/BC+Lions+Training+%26+Business+Centre/@49.1976499,-122.8585258,4656m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x5485d787485ca8e7:0x8da6e6955a6658fc!8m2!3d49.1957215!4d-122.8494357

 

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17 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

My experience is totally different : Traffic can be an issue (like many places) in morning and afternoon rush hour on the Freeway Monday to Friday and can extend from the outlets and inlets to it but games aren't really scheduled at that time anyways. I go into Langley a few times a week and the area around the LEC has no big issues. Went to the big car show in Aldergrove today and saw no **** show going thru the area.

As for nothing to do before or after the game, not sure what your looking for but there's a whole lot of restaurants and some bars as well close by with more in the works.

Have you been to the LEC on a game day for anything?  It's a **** show.  Honestly.  They've added some extra lights and deploy police to help with traffic control, but it's still bad.  It's not the same as rush hour at all.

And when I'm talking about things to do, I mean within a decent walking distance.  If there's something there, I've missed it.

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On 11/17/2017 at 4:40 PM, CDNFootballer said:

Surrey is in Metro/Greater Vancouver in fact. 

Vancouver Giants and Vancouver Stealth play even further out in the suburb of Langley.

Vancouver Stealth no longer exist.  They were purchased by the Canucks, got smart, changed their name to the Vancouver Warriors and moved out of that farm patch called Langley Township.

But you are partly correct.  Surrey is part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District or "Metro Vancouver."  

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1 hour ago, DrFitzpatrick said:

Vancouver Stealth no longer exist.  They were purchased by the Canucks, got smart, changed their name to the Vancouver Warriors and moved out of that farm patch called Langley Township.

But you are partly correct.  Surrey is part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District or "Metro Vancouver."  

Not sure if you see the date of that post I made (and you necro quoted) but it was November 2017, when they were still existing as the Stealth.

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On 9/6/2019 at 3:59 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Apart from that, even the airport is relatively far from the city in Victoria.

Relative to what? It is a 15-20 minute drive from downtown. I think that compares favourably with most cities in Canada.
 

On 9/6/2019 at 4:46 PM, Ansem said:

 The danger of building a cathedral downtown 

A. The land is EXPENSIVE as F....

Which is where Victoria has a leg up. We already have a soccer/baseball stadium, owned by the city, downtown. Royal Athletic Park could easily be renovated/rebuilt into a state of the art small stadium. 

The problem was the political will to spend city money on the project. Langford was willing , City of Victoria (pop. 90,000 out of a regional population of 400,000 ) was not. :(

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13 hours ago, ted said:

Relative to what? It is a 15-20 minute drive from downtown. I think that compares favourably with most cities in Canada.

Which is where Victoria has a leg up. We already have a soccer/baseball stadium, owned by the city, downtown. Royal Athletic Park could easily be renovated/rebuilt into a state of the art small stadium. 

The problem was the political will to spend city money on the project. Langford was willing , City of Victoria (pop. 90,000 out of a regional population of 400,000 ) was not. :(

You are right, Ted, but consider. It is as far as downtown Montreal to Trudeau, and further than downtown Vancouver to YVR. It is far for a city the size of Victoria. And if you are considering travelling from airport to the stadium, it is one of the furthest drives in the CPL, after Calgary YYC to Spruce Meadows.

Subject of Victoria political will and Royal Athletic. I was involved doing social media for a candidate for mayor last year, so got a bit of inside information. RAP was never even considered by Victoria City Hall, because no clear proposal was brought to the table. They did not even get a chance to show will or not so it was not at all an issue during the campaign (when other sports facilities were discussed, such as Crystal Pool, which is just beside RAP). I do not know how the negotiations went, whether it was Langford going to the CPL group in the Fraser Valley or Simpson and Friend getting a tip and going to talk to the mayor, but from the timing on it, they did not make any effort to go the route of Victoria. Probably a good idea, as the current political set-up would not likely have been at all supportive.

PS: I agree as others surely do who know the facility, that Royal Athletic would be an amazing location for a soccer team, and would draw better than Langford from day one. No blaming Westhills, but the demographics and location are just a harder sell, that is all. 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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Would it have been possible to develop RAP into a facility comparable to what is happening at Westhills, though? From Google, it doesn't look likely that they'd be able to turn it into a fully-enclosed facility with stands on all four sides of the pitch.

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I have seasons to both TFC and Y9 this year, and I have had seasons for TFCII and for the Fury in both NASL and PDL when I used to live in Ottawa.

The biggest lesson I am taking away from the 2019 season for TFC and Y9 is that a CPL club has to have a nice stadium in a dense part of a metro area for it to thrive. There's some rumours in CanSoc circles in Toronto among long-time and well-connected V's, including those in CSA, about Y9's short-term future, and I absolutely hate to see it.

My personal belief is that in the GTA, the location that has the greatest chance of thriving is downtown Sauga, because it's a dense part of the 2nd biggest city in the GTA, with lots of transit, and importantly is a place that Sauga people go to hang out or celebrate events, at Square One and Celebration Square.

I used to live and go to school in Metro Van, and have friends in and driven out to Langley, Surrey, Coquitlam, White Rock, North Van, Richmond, etc etc, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two places I can envision a CPL club thriving because it has transit and is close to a major downtown-like hub is Swangard for Burnaby, and possibly that BC Lions Training Centre, or a new/pop-up stadium, in Whalley/Surrey. I don't know Whalley much at all, so do excuse me if I'm incorrect on that. I'm glad Halifax has made pop-ups cool though.

My gut reaction is that the family-oriented residential neighbourhoods in Surrey and Langley to me will be quite similar to what Y9 is going through, and will not be something you'll want to replicate. North York and Vaughan have a ton of soccer players and lots of families with $, but nobody goes to York University or the surrounding area for a downtown-vibe, and for me, that's what's troubled Y9 the most this 2019 season, in addition to the high ticket prices.

In addition, families have lots of things to take their kids to on the weekend, it's just as important to take into account the 20's and 30's with no kids, which to me is the vast majority of my fellow TFC supporters. And the vast majority of the Gen IX that I will stand at Y9 with if I don't have to bring my kid or can't make it to the game cuz I have to take my kid somewhere.

I keep doing the best I can here for Y9, and I hope the best for a Fraser Valley CPL. Will 100% make sure to visit.

Edited by ironcub14

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19 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I have seasons to both TFC and Y9 this year, and I have had seasons for TFCII and for the Fury in both NASL and PDL when I used to live in Ottawa.

The biggest lesson I am taking away from the 2019 season for TFC and Y9 is that a CPL club has to have a nice stadium in a dense part of a metro area for it to thrive. There's some rumours in CanSoc circles in Toronto among long-time and well-connected V's, including those in CSA, about Y9's short-term future, and I absolutely hate to see it.

My personal belief is that in the GTA, the location that has the greatest chance of thriving is downtown Sauga, because it's a dense part of the 2nd biggest city in the GTA, with lots of transit, and importantly is a place that Sauga people go to hang out or celebrate events, at Square One and Celebration Square.

I used to live and go to school in Metro Van, and have friends in and driven out to Langley, Surrey, Coquitlam, White Rock, North Van, Richmond, etc etc, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the only two places I can envision a CPL club thriving because it has transit and is close to a major downtown-like hub is Swangard for Burnaby, and possibly that BC Lions Training Centre, or a new/pop-up stadium, in Whalley/Surrey. I don't know Whalley much at all, so do excuse me if I'm incorrect on that. I'm glad Halifax has made pop-ups cool though.

My gut reaction is that the family-oriented residential neighbourhoods in Surrey and Langley to me will be quite similar to what Y9 is going through, and will not be something you'll want to replicate. North York and Vaughan have a ton of soccer players and lots of families with $, but nobody goes to York University or the surrounding area for a downtown-vibe, and for me, that's what's troubled Y9 the most this 2019 season, in addition to the high ticket prices.

In addition, families have lots of things to take their kids to on the weekend, it's just as important to take into account the 20's and 30's with no kids, which to me is the vast majority of my fellow TFC supporters. And the vast majority of the Gen IX that I will stand at Y9 with if I don't have to bring my kid or can't make it to the game cuz I have to take my kid somewhere.

I keep doing the best I can here for Y9, and I hope the best for a Fraser Valley CPL. Will 100% make sure to visit.

Don't give up hope, the Impact matches proved the fans are there if promoted and priced right, it's a brand new league, of course there will be some areas of concern, hopefully further expansion is well thought out and lessons are learned from the 1st season!

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7 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Would it have been possible to develop RAP into a facility comparable to what is happening at Westhills, though? From Google, it doesn't look likely that they'd be able to turn it into a fully-enclosed facility with stands on all four sides of the pitch.

Westhills is not fully enclosed, first of all. It is not planned to be either. When they can run a stand along the "hydro pole side" it will be a very neat, fairly tight facility. The location is pretty and they do a good job making it a comfortable spot. 

RAP is a really beautiful site, with tall trees, in a near to downtown residential neighbourhood with character. It has that one long stand that is a bit odd since it is not centred, being shifted for baseball. It also means that the equivalent of the third base line also has a stand, which is essentially one goal zone, west side. See those here, from the 2007 u-20 WC:

Resultado de imagen de royal athletic park world cup 2007

When the PDL team played there there was a cute small stand behind the east end goal, and there is a space to do a not very large stand on that end. 

But what is essential is that the block is wide enough to run a long and very healthy stand down the opposite side of the main stand, as was done for the U-20 WC, like this, which is very imposing:

Resultado de imagen de royal athletic park world cup 2007

For now they have to work their butts off to make Westhills work, to fill the stands they have and grow the support, as it will be the only option for the next five years, at least, and rightly so considering how key they have been to support the club.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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25 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

...There's some rumours in CanSoc circles in Toronto among long-time and well-connected V's, including those in CSA, about Y9's short-term future, and I absolutely hate to see it...

That's a bit ominous but not all that surprising given we've been down this path with poorly supported low budget GTA soccer teams many times before and it all boils down to how long the money man is willing to keep propping it up. A lot of people will be getting a feeling of deja vu.

The obvious problem lumbering over the horizon that could force ownership into a decision is how suitable the redeveloped York Lions stadium will be for pro level soccer given the renovation is mainly aimed at a U-sports gridiron team and intramural programs in a winter bubble. If the answer is not a positive one on that it then boils down to whether the owner still envisages building that 12,000 seater way out in the boonies when they are struggling to get 1000 paid for many of the games right next to a TTC subway line and close to the 407 and 400 highways.

The Langley Exhibition Centre location really doesn't look favourable to me. Think they would be better off forgetting the whole Fraser valley angle if they can't get a suitable location and trying Swangard on grass (possible marketing point to exploit versus the Whitecaps) next to the Skytrain, if it's available.  

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