MLS Player Development

[TRM]

47 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I get what your saying TRM, but arent we still going to paired up with the usual suspects in this tiered system??  Wont we still have to beat Honduras, Panama, Jamaica, El salvador etc to stay in the top tier or get out of second tier?  We can barely get results now sending the full CMNT, let alone with "more emphasis on the U23 players".   More games means more guys can get rotated in, but we need those ranking points, the wieghted wins against CONCACAF opponents.  There will be more chances but I am not sure if it will result in a big bonus of playing time for youngsters.  

I've moved the discussion over to the MNT thread on the subject

CONCACAF Nations League (Update: Officially Announced) 

as I think it fits better in there. 

 

[TRM]

So we are in the following situation:

We have a lot of 18-22 MLS bench players who are struggling to crack the starting 11.
They get to play in V's Cup games and some scattered minutes in MLS.
The MLS teams have gone to affiliation (much less playing time).
Our U23 MNT plays even fewer games than our MNT (PanAm & Oly Qual).

They played 8 games in 2015 and nothing since. Mind you the CSA U23 page still shows "Benito Floro" as "Project Lead" so who knows if it is accurate. 

People seem resistant to use the new CLoN for U23, the clubs are on their 3rd attempt at a reserve team (affiliation is doomed IMHO so try #4 will be along in the next year or two) and the CSA hasn't had any U23 games in 2 years. 

What do people think of a joint program for the CSA & 3 MLS teams? Some funding split they can work out and lots of U23 friendly matches per year (10?) ? The players would still have to compete for starting spots so nothing is given. 

Or do we just wait for if/when the CPL becomes reality and/or the MLS teams figure out their reserve team structure? 

PS. Send them all to university! CIS & NCAA would be an option for most.

[jpg75]

So VWFC just released 4 Canadians and signed 1 for a net loss of 3. Adekugbe had his option picked up, de Jong and Davies return and Levis has been signed. Is it time for the V's to petition the CSA asking for increased Canadian content quotas?

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

So VWFC just released 4 Canadians and signed 1 for a net loss of 3. Adekugbe had his option picked up, de Jong and Davies return and Levis has been signed. Is it time for the V's to petition the CSA asking for increased Canadian content quotas?

As long as CPL isn't running and stable, the CSA has little choice but to put up with this.

I expect a viable and growing CPL will turn the table and we might see a more aggressive CSA on Canadian quotas for MLS franchises

[harrycoyster]

26 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Is it time for the V's to petition the CSA asking for increased Canadian content quotas?

That went swell for the USL teams. 

How about we wait to see how many Canadians are on the Caps roster come preseason instead of crucifying them for what the roster looks like on Cut Day eh? Edgar and Teibert are already in talks to return at a lower salary, and are you really making the argument that Bustos and McKendry belong on an MLS roster?

[matty]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

That went swell for the USL teams. 

How about we wait to see how many Canadians are on the Caps roster come preseason instead of crucifying them for what the roster looks like on Cut Day eh? Edgar and Teibert are already in talks to return at a lower salary, and are you really making the argument that Bustos and McKendry belong on an MLS roster?

The desire for quotas goes way beyond these cuts

[matty]

Having a 2-4 Canadian on the pitch at all time requirement for the Canadian MLS teams would be the best move the CSA could do regarding those 3 teams. It would get Canadians playing regular minutes, cause the teams to truly develop domestic talent and protect Canadian players from unemployment and premature retirement. Anyone who complains about quotas is a fucking punk ass bitch.

[Dub Narcotic]

It's kind of fun to watch the pro-quota, pro-NASL squad soldier on. How many more clubs can you guys help kill in Canada?

[harrycoyster]

55 minutes ago, matty said:

Having a 2-4 Canadian on the pitch at all time requirement for the Canadian MLS teams would be the best move the CSA could do regarding those 3 teams. It would get Canadians playing regular minutes, cause the teams to truly develop domestic talent and protect Canadian players from unemployment and premature retirement. Anyone who complains about quotas is a fucking punk ass bitch.

Whoa there angry internet man. You want 4 Canadians on the pitch at all times for the Caps next season? Sure! Arfield, Davies, De Jong, Hoilett could start most games. Keep Teibert on the bench and sign Tesho from Dallas for depth.

Now that Canadian players are tremendously overvalued and over-important to Canadian teams, Larin will probably be offered a DP contract to play in Canada, Davies stays on the Caps until 2022, and Didic comes back to Canada because no team can pass up on Canadian depth at CB when our national team doesn't even have an MLS starting calibre CB. Have a kid who is promising but needs a loan to USL/CPL to prove himself? No, no, no...he needs to be on a MLS teams bench in case a Canadian gets hurt to meet the quota.
 

That'll be great for the CMNT! We just had two USL teams fold because Canada can't produce enough USL level talent to meet their quotas, but we surely have enough MLS level talent to make quotas viable!

[baulderdash77]

The USL teams didn’t fold because there wasn’t enough talent they folded because there isn’t an appetite to watch semi pro soccer in Montreal and Vancouver, who don’t fill up their MLS stadiums consistently.

 

[jpg75]

Hey look it's the Whitecaps fans against Canadian content and everyone else for it! Makes you wonder if these guys are actually Lenarduzzi and co. using cyber warfare to justify their actions.

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

The USL teams didn’t fold because there wasn’t enough talent they folded because there isn’t an appetite to watch semi pro soccer in Montreal and Vancouver, who don’t fill up their MLS stadiums consistently.

 

No MLS2 team gets anywhere near breaking even. The MLS teams knew that going in. While I'll admit that both teams drew below there target attendances numbers, both teams would have dealt with the monetary loss (like the Red Bulls and Los Dos do) if there was a developmental benefit. Instead, the Canadian USL teams were getting played off the field. The Whitecaps finished second to last in their conference this year, TFC finished last in their's this year, and FC Montreal finished dead last in their only season last year.

It kinda sorta makes sense to lose ~$5 million a year to maintain a USL team that produces two MLS players a year. It makes zero sense to lose ~$5 million a year to have the OKC Energy 2nd squad pass around you like they are the Harlem Globetrotters. 

[matty]

32 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

It's kind of fun to watch the pro-quota, pro-NASL squad soldier on. How many more clubs can you guys help kill in Canada?

 Yea we're killing clubs. Go get fucked by Ben Spencer.

Harry will reply to you when home

[Bison44]

 

WHOOAH, hold your horses! The USL clubs quit because they couldnt meet the quotas??  FC montreal played more than the quota (mostly kids) and had no older foreign talent to help out (which they had every right to do).  Maybe you can say VAN FC montreal folded because the CDN content was crappy, and no one showed up to watch a crappy squad.  I'll agree with that.  Oh wait a minute, VWC2 did very well last season (with numbers close to the quota) and still no one showed up.  Dont lay this on the quota, Van didnt want to the money to spend on a develoment squad when they can bring in vet Egyptians, NZ, south americans as needed.  Just be glad some other country is developing youngsters for them to pouch. 

And did they really lose 5mil a season?    

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

And did they really lose 5mil a season?    

From what I've been told 5 million is a rough average of what the Canadian MLS2 teams lose a season. TFC loses less, the Caps lose more, Montreal was right around that number. Remember, travel costs in the Western Conference of USL are significantly higher than in the East. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

It's kind of fun to watch the pro-quota, pro-NASL squad soldier on. How many more clubs can you guys help kill in Canada?

So the USSF can impose restrictions on its teams but the CSA shouldn't do what every other associations are doing and do the same?

Politely to you: Get the F out of here

[Bison44]

So the caps are saying there really isnt more than 2-3 guys worth keeping around in BC and all of western canada so lets shit can the whole thing?  How long before they realize they arent getting a return on the academy and punt it as well?  Bring in Adekube from foothills, Davies and Amanda from FCE (oops not around), it will be much cheaper. Arent most MLS clubs going the other way, creating and spending more on academies homegrown development??  

 And how much are they going to spend on Fresno?  What is the deal anyway....3-4 players from Van with some/any/no incentive to play them??  So fresno gets the bonus of building grassroots soccer by having a local USL team, helped by the whitecaps.  It all leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  I hope if the CPL ever gets going we can see this kind of relationship with at least another CDN club. I know the hardcore CPL guys wont like that, but at least then the caps can keep it local.  Saskatoon baby caps or something.  

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

You want 4 Canadians on the pitch at all times for the Caps next season? Sure! Arfield, Davies, De Jong, Hoilett could start most games. Keep Teibert on the bench and sign Tesho from Dallas for depth.

You're overestimating MLS. Those highlighted are fine where they are. The CSA should impose restrictions on MLS teams when CPL is up and running. At the end of the day what is best for Canada soccer? Ensuring our 3 MLS teams prioritize money and playoffs runs or our national program. What the CSA's mandate again? remind me...

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Now that Canadian players are tremendously overvalued and over-important to Canadian teams, Larin will probably be offered a DP contract to play in Canada, Davies stays on the Caps until 2022, and Didic comes back to Canada because no team can pass up on Canadian depth at CB when our national team doesn't even have an MLS starting calibre CB. Have a kid who is promising but needs a loan to USL/CPL to prove himself? No, no, no...he needs to be on a MLS teams bench in case a Canadian gets hurt to meet the quota.

We need our own league. Period. Thanks for remind us why MLS and the USSF will never help our program to the next level

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

That'll be great for the CMNT! We just had two USL teams fold because Canada can't produce enough USL level talent to meet their quotas, but we surely have enough MLS level talent to make quotas viable!

First, you might want to change your tone, you're getting irritating. We just need our own system, period, separated from the USSF as much as possible. USL and MLS aren't the benchmark for excellence, far from it. Look at what Denmark, Iceland and Sweden accomplished this year, no reason Canada can't do it either. Relying on the USSF limits us more than we care to collectively admit.

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

You're overestimating MLS. Those highlighted are fine where they are. The CSA should impose restrictions on MLS teams when CPL is up and running. At the end of the day what is best for Canada soccer? Ensuring our 3 MLS teams prioritize money and playoffs runs or our national program. What the CSA's mandate again? remind me...

We need our own league. Period. Thanks for remind us why MLS and the USSF will never help our program to the next level

First, you might want to change your tone, you're getting irritating. We just need our own system, period, separated from the USSF as much as possible. USL and MLS aren't the benchmark for excellence, far from it. Look at what Denmark, Iceland and Sweden accomplished this year, no reason Canada can't do it either. Relying on the USSF limits us more than we care to collectively admit.

I don't disagree with you. I want Arfield and Hoilett to stay in England, which is why I'm pointing out what will happen if you impose a Canadian quota on MLS teams right now. I think a Canadian quota in MLS will actively hurt our program.

I'm as hardcore a CPL guy as there is on this forum. I can't wait until the project gets off the ground. Not having a domestic league is the single biggest hindrance to Canadian soccer development.

I just don't see how we can sit here with what 10 maybe 12 MLS starting-calibre players in our entire national team program,  4-5 of which we don't want playing in MLS anyways, then force the MLS teams to have 3-4 Canadians on the field at all times. That won't make our USL players into MLS players...it will make our Europeam players in MLS players. The player base isn't there for that to be a reasonable expectation. 

 

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I think a Canadian quota in MLS will actively hurt our program.

No quota has generated NO RESULTS. Let's be real here. Kind of make you regret not imposing one and stick with it from the get go...

18 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I just don't see how we can sit here with what 10 maybe 12 MLS starting-calibre players in our entire national team program,  4-5 of which we don't want playing in MLS anyways, then force the MLS teams to have 3-4 Canadians on the field at all times. That won't make our USL players into MLS players...it will make our Europeam players in MLS players. The player base isn't there for that to be a reasonable expectation. 

Let's be real and remind people of facts:

In the US

• Americans compete against themselves
• Canadians compete against the much more talented internationals

In Canada

• Americans compete against themselves and Canadians
• Canadians compete against themselves + Americans

So sick and tired of the whole "not good enough for MLS" when frankly, there's a load of Americans who don't belong there by the same standards but having the "domestic stamps" protects them. With MLS aggressively expanding, you'll see more and more mediocre Americans playing in MLS. where I'm going with this is this:

• Would Canadians in MLS be the best in the league? NO.
• Would Canadians in MLS automatically be the worst of the entire league? I don't buy that 1 second. Kind of help the American player to be deemed domestics, don't you think?

We need our own league, period. Then once we have it, I hope the CSA cracks the F down of those 3 clubs by slapping them with quotas. What do we have to show for after all theses years of free for all? Spencer playing ahead of Hamilton who scores in MLS? I have ZERO sympathy for MLS clubs

 

[harrycoyster]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

What do we have to show for after all theses years of free for all?

The three most highly funded and developmentally focused soccer academies that we've ever had....who have to travel 1,000km a weekend to play at a decent level because they don't have any competition in their own country.

[Ansem]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

The three most highly funded and developmentally focused soccer academies that we've ever had....who have to travel 1,000km a weekend to play at a decent level because they don't have any competition in their own country.

Are you for real????

It's crap. We missed the hex again, so it doesn't work. And spare me your "decent" level crap. MLS and their academies are not the measuring stick. Canada needs to do things in house from now on. We don't need the USSF for our program

[matty]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Whoa there angry internet man. You want 4 Canadians on the pitch at all times for the Caps next season? Sure! Arfield, Davies, De Jong, Hoilett could start most games. Keep Teibert on the bench and sign Tesho from Dallas for depth.

I said 2-4. Way to go with the extreme. As we've discussed before, 2 is doable for our three MLS clubs at the current time and the goal of 4 per team should be set for a point in the next decade. No need to bring over or trap Canadians here, simply allow proper development.

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Now that Canadian players are tremendously overvalued and over-important to Canadian teams, Larin will probably be offered a DP contract to play in Canada, Davies stays on the Caps until 2022, and Didic comes back to Canada because no team can pass up on Canadian depth at CB when our national team doesn't even have an MLS starting calibre CB. Have a kid who is promising but needs a loan to USL/CPL to prove himself? No, no, no...he needs to be on a MLS teams bench in case a Canadian gets hurt to meet the quota.

Again no. With a set rate of 2 players like Larin, while valued, would not be trapped. Soccer is an open market and teams will sign as they see fit. Stop jumping to extremes.

If the Canadian MLS teams are unable to find 2-4 guys in their systems at the current time to join the main team then their programs should be questioned and they should be forced to remodel their failed development programs. 

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

That'll be great for the CMNT! We just had two USL teams fold because Canada can't produce enough USL level talent to meet their quotas, but we surely have enough MLS level talent to make quotas viable!

 They didn't fold because of Canadian talent. They shut down because they cost too much to run and had no real income so their parent clubs opted to kill them and change their approach.

Honestly if you don't introduce a quota soon 2026 will be a shit show.

[harrycoyster]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Are you for real????

It's crap. We missed the hex again, so it doesn't work. And spare me your "decent" level crap. MLS and their academies are not the measuring stick. Canada needs to do things in house from now on. We don't need the USSF for our program

You want to abandon playing in the USSDA, whose teams have outperformed the top Mexican academies at two straight Dallas Cups , because we got knocked out of Hex contention in 2016 when our academies were only four years into being fully funded. Please.

We don't need the USSF, but not taking advantage of their youth pyramid while ours is horrendous would be a mistake. Again, that's a problem the CPL should eventually fix.

20 minutes ago, matty said:

I said 2-4. Way to go with the extreme. As we've discussed before, 2 is doable for our three MLS clubs at the current time and the goal of 4 per team should be set for a point in the next decade. No need to bring over or trap Canadians here, simply allow proper development.

Again no. With a set rate of 2 players like Larin, while valued, would not be trapped. Soccer is an open market and teams will sign as they see fit. Stop jumping to extremes.

 They didn't fold because of Canadian talent. They shut down because they cost too much to run and had no real income so their parent clubs opted to kill them and change their approach.

 

Sorry, didn't know you wouldn't be comfortable with a number you suggested. And I was told firsthand that the three reasons the Caps were planning on shutting down the Baby Caps was 1) USSF D2 stadium requirements 2) the cost of operation and 3) the roster limitations making development challenging. Believe me, if VWCII put up the results SPR or NYRBII did (in terms of both development and results), they'd still be around. 

 

[matty]

9 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Sorry, didn't know you wouldn't be comfortable with a number you suggested. And I was told firsthand that the three reasons the Caps were planning on shutting down the Baby Caps was 1) USSF D2 stadium requirements 2) the cost of operation and 3) the roster limitations making development challenging. Believe me, if VWCII put up the results SPR or NYRBII did (in terms of both development and results), they'd still be around. 

 

I'm sorry what? I said 2-4 in both posts and explained them a bit more in the later in a way which is ideal for everyone. How is that me not being comfortable with my own numbers. If anyone isn't comfy with them it's you.

Also 100% cost exceeded everything other issue. The stadium is part of those costs as well whether you want to admit it or not.

Regarding roster rules: Why the fuck should we not have stronger ones to assure Canadians play and are developed in a league claiming to be our true D1? And honestly the 3 teams currently have the talent to play within these rules, it's a matter of them adjusting to work with them.