Ottawa CPL Club

[Ottawafan74]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

That may be true in Ontario, but I am not sure it is as universal as you claim.  NS Soccer clearly has an interest in supporting the Wanderers given the scheduling concession made to avoid conflicts.  In PEI, the clubs absolutely try to move elite players into the higher tiers of competitive footy (the Whitecaps are doing some work in player development here and one or two kids have gone off to train in their system).  It may be a product of scope and scale, but I suspect there are lots of local clubs that don't fit the fiefdom model you articulate. 

Can’t speak for other markets. Just basing it off my experiences in Ottawa and Toronto. 

[1996]

17 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Fury youth started out as the old EODSA system where they would take the u13’s from the region to to the provincial ID camps. The district assured the clubs they had no interest in creating their own teams. But that was the goal. When they found out they couldn’t enter teams in the local league they created their own league, the ERSL. Then they found out they had to go through promotions, starting 3 levels below the ERSL. So they went SYL. Fury coaches would then show up to games in the area to poach top talent. At that point there was no real top team. 

When the men’s team came about they wanted to start up a youth system. New ownership and new coaches who ( outside of Pugh ) had no link to the past. Problem was a few local clubs had upped their level and were miles ahead of what the Fury could offer. As such parents and clubs had zero interest in moving over. The Fury needed the local clubs more than they needed them. Add in what the EODSA and the old Fury youth teams pulled and you see why the clubs wanted nothing to do with them. 

Any new CPL squad will face the same sentiment; local clubs are more interested in protecting their turf than doing what’s best for the game in Canada. 

 

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

That may be true in Ontario, but I am not sure it is as universal as you claim.  NS Soccer clearly has an interest in supporting the Wanderers given the scheduling concession made to avoid conflicts.  In PEI, the clubs absolutely try to move elite players into the higher tiers of competitive footy (the Whitecaps are doing some work in player development here and one or two kids have gone off to train in their system).  It may be a product of scope and scale, but I suspect there are lots of local clubs that don't fit the fiefdom model you articulate. 

A little easier though dealing with small numbers that say PEI has in terms of youth players and clubs as compared to Ontario with its huge numbers of clubs and players. I’m sure it’s changing a bit hopefully were youth clubs are starting to understand that in the end if it has players who aspire to go on to become pro it’s in the players best interest to work with the CPL or MLS club in their area. I remember it being so bad years ago that some youth clubs would try to persuade their players to not even try out with the provincial team of their province , hopefully those days are gone.

[KW519]

If kids would rather pay to play for a local youth club than be in a pro academy for free something must be off at the club. You can literally take any B team player under the age of 12 that eats,sleeps, and breaths footy and turn them into better prospects than the kids playing for A teams with a little TLC. The key is to get them young enough to actually impact their development.

Based on what you said Ottawafan it seems like Ottawa either didn't back their own ability to develop these kids, or they just gave up because they weren't able to poach the best prospects. With the amount of youth clubs in the Ottawa area it's hard to believe/disappointing they couldn't keep a sustainable academy running

 

[Kent]

10 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Then some asshole comes along and tries to twist my words to imply that one player loan from TFC to CPL makes CPL an "MLS development league". He must think the people on here are stupid. He is wrong.

This is the other quote that I was trying to allude to with the single loan talk you mentioned.

On 3/2/2019 at 10:35 PM, dsqpr said:

Player loans are also a massive potential banana skin for CPL if the "parent" MLS club were to start loaning its promising youngsters to the CPL "development" club and then taking back an improved player with no transfer fee. At that point CPL would clearly be perceived as a development league for MLS and it would be finished. I would even go so far as to say that CPL should not permit ANY player loans from MLS for this very reason.

I thought you were being pretty extreme in your views and was trying to ask an honest question about how you feel about the loan (now at 2 loans, since Emery Welshman has been loaned from FC Cincinnati to Forge).

It sounds like your position is that although you don't want any loans from MLS, you don't think they make the league cross your threshold to MLS development league.

If that's it, we are mostly on the same page. Like you I don't want any affiliations with MLS teams (and ideally not with any teams period), but unlike you I am fine with loans in general.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

Was this not due to a backlash from the community clubs bc the Fury tried to poach all their best players (like what tfc academy did in the gta)? 

The Fury could have started their own academy at U8 and built up from there, you know, actually develop their own players and add to the pool.

Perhaps this is another reason the Fury should cease to exist so a new CPL club with a fresh start can work with the clubs to create an actual pyramid via financial incentives and solidarity agreements following player sales in place from day one.

CPL is not shy about being a selling league, the Fury is the absolute opposite.  

That is all very well, but facts are facts: as we stand there is no commitment from the CPL for an internal academy structure, none at all. 

If it is about recognizing local talent coming through the clubs, fine. Or though the universities, great. The PDL teams. But I don't think it is fair to as much as comment on Fury and the academy when the CPL has not even mentioned development as even a possibility.

Just as it is totally ridiculous to compare Fury reliance on loans from MLS, consistently, en masse, for years, to the announcement of one single player who has yet to even train with his new club in CPL.

[Kent]

22 minutes ago, 1996 said:

 

A little easier though dealing with small numbers that say PEI has in terms of youth players and clubs as compared to Ontario with its huge numbers of clubs and players. I’m sure it’s changing a bit hopefully were youth clubs are starting to understand that in the end if it has players who aspire to go on to become pro it’s in the players best interest to work with the CPL or MLS club in their area. I remember it being so bad years ago that some youth clubs would try to persuade their players to not even try out with the provincial team of their province , hopefully those days are gone.

I'm not involved in youth soccer so this is all speculation, but it seems to me the bigger the population/club, the easier it should be to deal with players getting "poached". A big club like, say, Oakville should be able to handle it if a few U15s leave the club. They should be able to promote houseleague players up to the travel team and carry on as per usual. In a small enough town, if you lose a few players maybe you no longer have a team. Growing up when I was at the U17 level I played on both the U17 team and the U19 team because there weren't enough U19's. I also had a year when I was playing rep as well as houseleague because there wasn't enough houseleague players. So I'm having a hard time buying being in a big city as an excuse. I think the real thing is in a bigger club the potential power trip is bigger, so they are more concerned with how losing some of their best players will impact their club.

Although if your point is about the ease of scheduling youth soccer games around the CPL game, then yeah, that would be a non-starter in a place like Toronto.

[BrennanFan]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

That is all very well, but facts are facts: as we stand there is no commitment from the CPL for an internal academy structure, none at all. 

If it is about recognizing local talent coming through the clubs, fine. Or though the universities, great. The PDL teams. But I don't think it is fair to as much as comment on Fury and the academy when the CPL has not even mentioned development as even a possibility.

Just as it is totally ridiculous to compare Fury reliance on loans from MLS, consistently, en masse, for years, to the announcement of one single player who has yet to even train with his new club in CPL.

My expectation is that every CPL club will have an academy within 3-5 yrs. Not easy to set up a free academy off the bat, need some revenue first.  CPL is being really guarded about their plans, but (I've heard) academies are being contemplated as is a national women's league. 

[Ottawafan74]

2 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

My expectation is that every CPL club will have an academy within 3-5 yrs. Not easy to set up a free academy off the bat, need some revenue first.  CPL is being really guarded about their plans, but (I've heard) academies are being contemplated as is a national women's league. 

Zero chance a CPL club will be able to set up a youth system at more than one age level and not charge for it. And it isn’t just about providing free or low cost academies; what level of coaching are you offering?

[Ottawafan74]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

I'm not involved in youth soccer so this is all speculation, but it seems to me the bigger the population/club, the easier it should be to deal with players getting "poached". A big club like, say, Oakville should be able to handle it if a few U15s leave the club. They should be able to promote houseleague players up to the travel team and carry on as per usual. In a small enough town, if you lose a few players maybe you no longer have a team. Growing up when I was at the U17 level I played on both the U17 team and the U19 team because there weren't enough U19's. I also had a year when I was playing rep as well as houseleague because there wasn't enough houseleague players. So I'm having a hard time buying being in a big city as an excuse. I think the real thing is in a bigger club the potential power trip is bigger, so they are more concerned with how losing some of their best players will impact their club.

Although if your point is about the ease of scheduling youth soccer games around the CPL game, then yeah, that would be a non-starter in a place like Toronto.

Of course they can move players from a lower team up to a higher team. There will always be enough kids to play. 

But if we are talking about players who will be able to play at a high level then ya losing 2-4 players is crippling. But again it’s not about that; it’s about finding kids who can train and develop at a high level to get them ready for the top level. Canada doesn’t have enough high level kids. And we don’t have enough high level coaching to grow. 

[MtlMario]

Should't all these discussions about Ottawa Fury be in the " CDN teams and leagues form"?

[Ottawafan74]

4 hours ago, KW519 said:

If kids would rather pay to play for a local youth club than be in a pro academy for free something must be off at the club. You can literally take any B team player under the age of 12 that eats,sleeps, and breaths footy and turn them into better prospects than the kids playing for A teams with a little TLC. The key is to get them young enough to actually impact their development.

Based on what you said Ottawafan it seems like Ottawa either didn't back their own ability to develop these kids, or they just gave up because they weren't able to poach the best prospects. With the amount of youth clubs in the Ottawa area it's hard to believe/disappointing they couldn't keep a sustainable academy running

 

You can’t take any kid of a second team and turn them into an first team player. Doesn’t work that way. 

It’s less about what the Fury can offer or do and more about the mindset of parents/kids coming out of local clubs. They didn’t  see the Fury academy as a better option than a few of the local clubs. 

[rob.notenboom]

53 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Zero chance a CPL club will be able to set up a youth system at more than one age level and not charge for it. And it isn’t just about providing free or low cost academies; what level of coaching are you offering?

You mean like the one FC Edmonton already has? 

[Ottawafan74]

Just now, rob.notenboom said:

You mean like the one FC Edmonton already has? 

Kids don’t play for free. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Why the anger?  Relax, it’s a message board for Canadian soccer fans. 

All I’m saying is take the best players you can. But if you want to rip the Fury for taking better players from a higher league, then don’t ignore it when it happens in the CPL. 

I'm not angry, I'm just calling an asshole an asshole. It isn't cool to twist people's words.

I am opposed to loans for reasons already stated. I do not like this CPL loan. But, also as already stated, one loan hardly turns CPL into an "MLS development league". A bunch more such loans would be a problem though.

[BrennanFan]

2 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Kids don’t play for free. 

Try again.

https://fcedmonton.canpl.ca/fc-edmonton-academy/

"As the main community investment arm of FC Edmonton and the Fath family, for over five years FC Edmonton’s Academy has ensured local youth who possess drive and determination can receive elite level training at no cost.

The Academy provides each player, regardless of economic or social situation, the opportunity to live out their dreams of training and playing soccer in a professional environment completely free of charge.

The boys and girls teams are fully funded by the Fath Family, which owns FC Edmonton, as their way of giving back to the youth in their community.

Families pay no registration fees and every Academy athlete is provided training & game wear, elite level coaching, academic mentorship and various other levels of soccer support."

[Dominic94]

2 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Kids don’t play for free. 

You say 0 chance like do you know how much money these owners have ? You’re aware they’re going to be profitable in year 1.

 

oh and as league sponsors both Nike and Marcon would provide gear to outfit the kids and for them to train with so that’s one expense taken care of.

you can always import coaches which some clubs will do. 

[Ottawafan74]

8 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Try again.

https://fcedmonton.canpl.ca/fc-edmonton-academy/

"As the main community investment arm of FC Edmonton and the Fath family, for over five years FC Edmonton’s Academy has ensured local youth who possess drive and determination can receive elite level training at no cost.

The Academy provides each player, regardless of economic or social situation, the opportunity to live out their dreams of training and playing soccer in a professional environment completely free of charge.

The boys and girls teams are fully funded by the Fath Family, which owns FC Edmonton, as their way of giving back to the youth in their community.

Families pay no registration fees and every Academy athlete is provided training & game wear, elite level coaching, academic mentorship and various other levels of soccer support."

I stand corrected. I remember having a convo with the GM of Edmonton and he told me that the youth system did have charges. 

How many age levels are they running?

Edited March 8, 2019 by Ottawafan74

[Ottawafan74]

6 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

You say 0 chance like do you know how much money these owners have ? You’re aware they’re going to be profitable in year 1.

 

oh and as league sponsors both Nike and Marcon would provide gear to outfit the kids and for them to train with so that’s one expense taken care of.

you can always import coaches which some clubs will do. 

Who will be profitable in year 1?

[Guest]

On 3/7/2019 at 10:37 AM, Kent said:

I'm still catching up, so I'm sure this has already been talked about. Now that Ryan Telfer has been loaned from TFC to York9 are you ceasing your support of CPL? You said you didn't want even a single loan from MLS. Hopefully you'll reconsider.

https://canpl.ca/article/york9-fc-acquires-ryan-telfer-on-season-long-loan-from-toronto-fc

 

4 hours ago, Kent said:

This is the other quote that I was trying to allude to with the single loan talk you mentioned.

I thought you were being pretty extreme in your views and was trying to ask an honest question about how you feel about the loan (now at 2 loans, since Emery Welshman has been loaned from FC Cincinnati to Forge).

It sounds like your position is that although you don't want any loans from MLS, you don't think they make the league cross your threshold to MLS development league.

If that's it, we are mostly on the same page. Like you I don't want any affiliations with MLS teams (and ideally not with any teams period), but unlike you I am fine with loans in general.

Above is the quote I took exception to. I said that I would not support an "MLS development league". I never said I would not support CPL if it borrowed even one player from MLS. So the only possible conclusion to draw from your smug question is that you are implying that a single loan from MLS to CPL turns CPL into an "MLS development league".

I am opposed to ANY loans from MLS to CPL for reasons already stated. The litmus test will be the quantity. For me, even one has the potential to be damaging to CPL, and unfortunately one is likely to open the floodgates. Allowing this is a very bad move by CPL IMHO.

If the NUMBER of these loans gets too big, I will no longer support CPL. And I can't at this point quantify the threshold but the public will do it for me anyway, so my personal feeing will be irrelevant. 

[Dominic94]

11 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Who will be profitable in year 1?

The league ? There’s been talk of how everything has been set up so that they can make money from the start.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan74 said:

Zero chance a CPL club will be able to set up a youth system at more than one age level and not charge for it. And it isn’t just about providing free or low cost academies; what level of coaching are you offering?

FC Edmonton has been running a free academy for years... I dont think it is crazy for other teams to do that. Oh, and as for the coaching, Edmonton’s academy was run by Jeff Paulus, and is now run by Sean Fleming who has coached at a national level.

[KW519]

16 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

You can’t take any kid of a second team and turn them into an first team player. Doesn’t work that way. 

It’s less about what the Fury can offer or do and more about the mindset of parents/kids coming out of local clubs. They didn’t  see the Fury academy as a better option than a few of the local clubs. 

Well no, not any kid. That's why I said a kid that lives for Football. I know for a fact there are plenty of those in the Ottawa area. Young enough in a good development environment there's absolutely no reason a boy can't be on the same level as the kids that were deemed better 3 years ago. 

Do you feel like OF could have done a better job with their relations with local youth clubs? Any idea why parents were viewing amateur youth clubs as better development pathway? 

[rob.notenboom]

12 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

I stand corrected. I remember having a convo with the GM of Edmonton and he told me that the youth system did have charges. 

How many age levels are they running?

U16/U18/U21 on the Men’s side and U18 on the women’s side. And their coach for years was the current head coach and former assistant coach and Sean Fleming has also been involved. 

Considering the Faths are not the wealthiest CanPL team owners, I would suggest that other CanPL teams will set up free academies at multiple age levels simply if they think that his approach is the right one and if they have the support from the league to do so. 

 

[Guest]

I should also point out that in England the loan market thrives and as a result the top teams are able to hog all of the talent and then loan them out for smaller clubs to develop, and as a result the smaller clubs now receive a fraction if the transfer fee revenue they used to generate (they beg a comparative pittance from the Sky TV money as compensation). The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I know that some people enjoy this state of affairs but I do not.

Edited March 8, 2019 by dsqpr

[Ottawafan74]

13 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

FC Edmonton has been running a free academy for years... I dont think it is crazy for other teams to do that. Oh, and as for the coaching, Edmonton’s academy was run by Jeff Paulus, and is now run by Sean Fleming who has coached at a national level.

Wait a minute. There a big difference between offering a couple levels at a reduced cost or free and running all age levels to be able to compete with bigger local clubs.