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Ottawa CPL Club

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1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

So here’s my two cents about the unlikelihood of both:

1) the judicial process is slow. If Ottawa filed suit, there might not be a resolution to the matter for a couple of years from the time they filed. I think that a year or two in Court would hurt the Fury way more than Concacaf, the CPL, or the CSA. Particularly because a lawsuit would likely be sparked by a decision not to sanction them; they might find themselves in Court and with no on-field operations during the entire process because they’d have no league to play in until the matter of sanctioning worked out (or not). Never mind the jurisdictional and forum issues that might ensue... it might be tough to get Concacaf joined and into a Canadian Court. Two court cases would sap their resources further, and might cause even longer delays (or perhaps a stay of one proceeding to await the outcome of the other). 

You can get a civil case ruled on fairly quick depending on things. The fact CSA is government could get it sped up or you could get a tempt ruling to decide whether they can play.

1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

2) the only solution to the above would be some kind of equitable remedy, like an injunction, and those aren’t easy to get. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but the Fury would be foolish to view it is likely, to count on it to allow them to play in USL during the suit. 

See above. Agree that it's unlikely but at this stage it might be a matter of getting cash back on a loss

1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

Regarding the merits, I think they’d be up against it. Anyone who tells you that they know how a Court will rule is lying or uninformed. The judicial process is unpredictable. That being said, I don’t believe that they’d have very good chance in Court. Sanctioning is a privilege, given out at the discretion of the pertinent body. The Fury would have the burden of proof, and I can’t even imagine what a viable cause of action might be, especially if they’re given more warning this time. I’m sure that Concacaf will provide (if not publicly) some reasoning for denying sanctioning, and I think that we can all guess at what it will be. The exceptional circumstances meriting the Fury’s presence in the USL are gone. 

The Fury can argue that that’s incorrect, but it’s immaterial, even if true. Again, they don’t have a right to be sanctioned, and I’m pretty sure that the exceptional circumstances need to be determined by Concacaf, at their discretion alone. 

We’ll see I guess, but if Concacaf decides to play hardball, I’m not sure what the Fury can do about it. 

I don't think this becomes a matter of sanctioning but rather whether there was an active conspiracy against them that violated Canadian law (I think in this case there are a few competition or trust laws that they could find to sue over) that involves a wing of the government (which would allow easier access to communications between the 3 organizations).

I do agree you can't predict it but I think it could happen if Fury decided **** it we're going to hurt you. If they were to sue in civil court they'd be fine not playing and it wouldn't be about sanctioning they'd just be out to hurt.

23 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

If I am correct as a FIFA member civil court is not an option.

 

No you can sue a FIFA member if you suspect they've violated the law against you.

Edited by matty

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15 minutes ago, matty said:

You can get a civil case ruled on fairly quick depending on things. The fact CSA is government could get it sped up or you could get a tempt ruling to decide whether they can play.

See above. Agree that it's unlikely but at this stage it might be a matter of getting cash back on a loss

I don't think this becomes a matter of sanctioning but rather whether there was an active conspiracy against them that violated Canadian law (I think in this case there are a few competition or trust laws that they could find to sue over) that involves a wing of the government (which would allow easier access to communications between the 3 organizations).

I do agree you can't predict it but I think it could happen if Fury decided **** it we're going to hurt you. If they were to sue in civil court they'd be fine not playing and it wouldn't be about sanctioning they'd just be out to hurt.

No you can sue a FIFA member if you suspect they've violated the law against you.

I guess there’d need to really be a conspiracy to some illegal end, and it would need to be proveable on balance, for such a case to work. Also, what about forum? Wouldn’t that likely land in US Federal Court? (Isn’t Concacaf bases out of Miami? And the sanctioning is re: a US league...) I guess they could try to join Concacaf to an action against the other two in Canada, but it seems more attenuated. 

I guess we’ll see what happens!

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46 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

If I am correct as a FIFA member civil court is not an option.

 

They'd be de-sanctioned on the spot by FIFA. Suing CONCACAF is suing FIFA. That's why the CAS is their only option.

Edited by Ansem

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7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Exactly, they'd be de-sanctioned on the spot by FIFA. That's why the CAS is their only option

No you can sue in civil court. They're able to do it especially if they're not appealing the de-sanctioning but instead on trust matters. They'd never have a team again but they might not care if they did this.

Also you're suposed to use exactumundo

9 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

I guess there’d need to really be a conspiracy to some illegal end, and it would need to be proveable on balance, for such a case to work. Also, what about forum? Wouldn’t that likely land in US Federal Court? (Isn’t Concacaf bases out of Miami? And the sanctioning is re: a US league...) I guess they could try to join Concacaf to an action against the other two in Canada, but it seems more attenuated. 

I guess we’ll see what happens!

I think it would be in Canada because if it's not related to matters of sport as Fury are a Canadian organization and the damage would be most serve here. CONCACAF might not care either way but CSA would if it could damage them.

Unlikely it happens either way

Edited by matty

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If we are talking legal actions, for the most part the courts don't like weighing in on professional sports, and the main reason is because it near always is a dispute that could be resolved either through arbitration or internal politics. They are almost always glacial in pace, and without a doubt any decision made will be appealed and drag out. However, when they have from my understanding it has always been understood that you can buy and own a team, but what league they play in, is the affair of that league. If the CSA, USSF, CONCACAF, FIFA or the USL say the Fury can't play in this league, the court can't force the league to let them play there (as FIFA rules give each of those bodies a say on sanctioning). Conversely, the court can't force the Fury to play in a league they don't want to be a part of. They could, in theory join a non-FIFA affiliated league or start their own, which we all know isn't going to happen. The core point is there isn't anything the court is going to be able to do to force the sanctioning hand unless it's something to the effect of "You optionally grant sanctioning instead of paying damages"

Depending on how the leagues dictate terms and go about sanctioning and desanctioning realistically determines if there are damages the court could potentially awarded for desanctioning. The Fury would likely argue they previously sanctioned us and granted us exceptions, there was no reason to deny sanctioning and that we have a schedule/brand/agreements that need protecting. The sanctioning bodies would likely argue "We have always stated the Fury's presence was an exception, due to necessity, we gave them ample time to recognise their sanctioning was in jeopardy and they should have made arrangements as appropriate." and I'd be inclined to favour the bodies, given there isn't a contractual expectation you are/going to be sanctioned, until it actually happens.

However, make no mistake, at that point it's basically just an argument as to how much the sanctioning body would have to pay out in damages, if at all and if the risk warrants not simply resanctioning. It's basically just a big game of chicken.
 

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^ I think the Fury would argue that CPL cannot be considered equivalent to USL until they have been around for "a while" and have a comparable number of teams, which provides stability.

But I don't foresee that argument ever happening because I think CPL has done enough now to be where the Fury will want to play in 2020. And if both sides want it, surely it will happen.

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1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

All I know is I (CPL) wouldn't want a tenant (Fury) that I had to go to court to bring them in to one of my  rental properties.

So if the CPL/fans aren’t interested in Ottawa if they have to be forced in, are fans ok with allowing them to remain in the USL?

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5 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

So if the CPL/fans aren’t interested in Ottawa if they have to be forced in, are fans ok with allowing them to remain in the USL?

If they wanted to do a USL II deal I think it would be okay for all parties but USL Championship just doesn’t seem to work for anyone.  

Ottawa doesn’t want to spend to compete so why remain at that level?  It doesn’t benefit anyone, except maybe the MLS clubs that loan their players there.  But they could loan their players anywhere, so what’s the point?  As a fan do you really want to come out to watch a revolving door of prospects get killed?  To let a franchise like that exist would be negative to Canadian soccer all around and for what? So that MAYBE one or two guys makes the MNT from that club?  

The way our pyramid is set no team should be playing in the USL Championship, period. 

 

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I have no problems with them remaining in the USL or going to the CPL. In the end neither league will be a high level. But I want a place for Canadian gets to develop through a youth system designed to place kids on the top team. 

I just don’t want to see a league and a governing body attempting to shoehorn a team into an unknown entity because someone made a promise and drew the line in the sand. 

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39 minutes ago, Ottawafan74 said:

So if the CPL/fans aren’t interested in Ottawa if they have to be forced in, are fans ok with allowing them to remain in the USL?

Honestly (and I am not trying to be a prick) at this point I couldn't care less if Ottawa wanted to bugger around in USL forever.  If a Canadian club thinks they are better off in a US league than supporting a Canadian league, I couldn't give a **** about them.  I still think they should be in CPL.  And I think it is an unfortunate business decision to not join - the interest in CPL will grow, and Ottawa's relevance (outside their direct market and possibly within it) will shrink.  They may be able to justify the status quo via MLS player loans that subsidize their wage bill, and many of the local fans will likely still support that - but they will be missing out on the biggest modern development in Canadian soccer.   

Having said all that, when CPL has a lot of inertia behind it, and CPL2 starts to become a reality (which I am confident will happen), the league would be in a position to allow a modest upstart club in Gatineau or even Ottawa itself into the league structure to seek promotion - and then things might get a bit murky.   There is a very real possibility that the Fury would lose some of its fanbase that would see a better future in the CPL structure.   And if that came to fruition, the Fury wouldn't have the current luxury of simply joining CPL1 if they chose to.  Membership would likely come with restrictions on MLS player loans to avoid unofficial farm team status - and those restrictions would have big implications for their business model.

For the record, I don't think that last scenario is some ridiculous projection - I think it is a very plausible scenario based on what the league has done so far and the rumblings about the other markets that want to to be a part of it.  CPL won't just forgo a presence in Ottawa forever - it is a major Canadian market.  And while the present situation may not allow for two Ottawa-based teams that are the size and scale of the Fury, the coming of CPL 2 would allow someone to enter the CPL structure for a relatively modest investment. 

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That's the amalgamation of two of my son's old clubs. They actually have a really good development program for U5-U12 and a decent elite academy program that plays OPDL. I'm sure at one point they're going to apply for an L1O franchise because they have access to a 1500-seat gate-access stadium at their main training grounds.

Capital United was affiliated with TFC since around 2009 and one of the TFCIII goalkeepers is the Cumberland United VP's son, so it's a pretty logical progression. 

Edited by Initial B

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6 hours ago, Ottawafan74 said:

So if the CPL/fans aren’t interested in Ottawa if they have to be forced in, are fans ok with allowing them to remain in the USL?

I can't speak for the CPL but for me I would not want them in my league. It would be like forcing someone to marry you . Personally I wouldn't care where they remain/go.

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13 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

I can't speak for the CPL but for me I would not want them in my league. It would be like forcing someone to marry you . Personally I wouldn't care where they remain/go.

that's the darkest comparison i've ever seen on this site

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10 hours ago, Ottawafan74 said:

So if the CPL/fans aren’t interested in Ottawa if they have to be forced in, are fans ok with allowing them to remain in the USL?

 

Ottawa Fury in USL is essentially condemning them to soccer purgatory.  

I have no problem with that.  Not sure how the Ottawa fans would feel.  

 

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Winnipeg Fury said:

Ottawa Fury in USL is essentially condemning them to soccer purgatory.  

I have no problem with that.  Not sure how the Ottawa fans would feel.  

When Ottawa fans realize you’re right, they’ll be clamouring for the Fury to join CanPL.

Edited by Grandbloke

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10 hours ago, Grandbloke said:

When Ottawa fans realize you’re right, they’ll be clamouring for the Fury to join CanPL.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of pro-CPL/pro-USL fans.  Seasons tickets aren't really a good indicator (though I am interested in seeing if there is a drop) because lots of folks will likely keep attending regardless just because it is high level local footy. 

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On 2/21/2019 at 5:10 AM, JamboAl said:
10 hours ago, Grandbloke said:

When Ottawa fans realize you’re right, they’ll be clamouring for the Fury to join CanPL.

Wouldn’t it be fantastic if in a few years the CPL is thriving beyond everyone’s expectations and Ottawa come crawling, they’ve finished their ‘wait and see’ period. Only, they’ve missed the boat. CPL isn’t sure whether Ottawa is going to survive as a club, so they are given a place in the just created CPL 2nd division. That would be delicious. 

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52 minutes ago, Ams1984 said:

 

Not really. What's best for everyone who's passionate about Canadian soccer and the CPL is that the two come to a realization soon that they're both better off together. 

We have 11 professional teams, 4 in the US system, we're hardly at a place to be hoping for the crippling demise of one of them. 

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22 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Not really. What's best for everyone who's passionate about Canadian soccer and the CPL is that the two come to a realization soon that they're both better off together. 

We have 11 professional teams, 4 in the US system, we're hardly at a place to be hoping for the crippling demise of one of them. 

I don’t really see a non CPL Ottawa club having a future. There will be an Ottawa CPL club, and I’m saying that I hope it’s not the Fury. 

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4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of pro-CPL/pro-USL fans.  Seasons tickets aren't really a good indicator (though I am interested in seeing if there is a drop) because lots of folks will likely keep attending regardless just because it is high level local footy. 

That’s a very good question!  Frankly I don’t know but if I were to guess: a healthy majority don’t care what league the team is playing in and those that do would probably say CPL.  The ones who say USL are in the Fury corner when it comes to CONCACAF sanctioning.

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24 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

That’s a very good question!  Frankly I don’t know but if I were to guess: a healthy majority don’t care what league the team is playing in and those that do would probably say CPL.  The ones who say USL are in the Fury corner when it comes to CONCACAF sanctioning.

That's about what I suspect as well.  

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