BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, CanSuffer said: No, I don't know anything. But it is a fair assumption and the most likely scenario. The other scenarios are that it is officially confirmed, or officially denied, before. But I don't think many people would consider this to be "dragging on" until after October. The USL say they are supportive of CanPL, so the move would involve a lot less acrimony than leaving the NASL did. Also not clear what harm a CanPL related membership drive would have done them over the last few months. What better way to do it than at actual pro soccer games with a heavily Canadian roster? It's a bit like the Port City to Victoria move. The indications that things are not unfolding as expected are there now, if you are open minded about the possibility. Edited September 1, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) Not sure what Ottawa's share would be, if any, in that financial windfall for existing members, which could be up to $usd 75 million overall by the sounds of things, but it may help to explain why there could be a reluctance at OSEG to leave until CanPL has more of a proven track record. Edited September 3, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1996 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 They are playing in a league right now trying to make the playoffs, there are fans that you know invested their hard earned money in this team for this season so they have an obligation to their fans to do the best they can this season and try and go as far as they can and even try to win it all . Once the season is over I’m sure the joining the CPL announcement will be made , so people on here chill Ottawa will be there , however , they still have a season to play! DrummingInMySleep and Red and White 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I used to think that as well. Here's the problem with it. Cincinnatti announced they were leaving for MLS. What's the problem with the Fury doing the same with CanPL, if it's also a D1 league? The eighth team doesn't have to be in Ottawa. How about a league owned Montreal franchise given they are having tryouts there, Claude Robilliard is around the right size with grass (think anyway?) and they badly need a team in Quebec to tap into the francophone media market? Kent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I used to think that as well. Here's the problem with it. Cincinnatti announced they were leaving for MLS. What's the problem with the Fury doing the same with CanPL, if it's also a D1 league? The eighth team doesn't have to be in Ottawa. How about a league owned Montreal franchise given they are having tryouts there, Claude Robilliard is around the right size with grass (think anyway?) and they badly need a team in Quebec to tap into the francophone media market? Because they've bragged about "20 interested ownership groups" so having a league owned franchise in year one would be a bad look. Plus since all the teams are prepared to operate at a loss in year one, owning a team under those conditions would be an additional cost they may not which to have. And given the struggles of York 9 in the same area as TFC, they may not want to be owning a franchise in the same vicinity of as the Impact. Edited September 1, 2018 by Watchmen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDNFootballer Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Not sure what Ottawa's share would be, if any, in that financial windfall for existing members, which could be up to $usd 75 million overall by the sounds of things, but it may help to explain why there could be a reluctance at OSEG to leave until CanPL has more of a proven track record. The USL is privately owned so the profits go to them to invest back in the league and pocket not the USL franchises. Broadcast fees for USL apparently went up this year, USL wages have been kept low and depreciated even however with the NASL on haitus and USL not needing to compete with them for the D2 players pool. As recently reported, some USL players are actually paid by the hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I used to think that as well. Here's the problem with it. Cincinnatti announced they were leaving for MLS. What's the problem with the Fury doing the same with CanPL, if it's also a D1 league? Yeah, this. I don't see what the downside would be to announcing while the season is going on. Announcing the team is leaving Ottawa for another city would be one thing (why support a team that is going to be gone next year), but changing leagues to one that the fans appear to want them in (based on anecdotal opinions of supporters), I don't see the harm. I can't see anyone saying "I'm not going to go to games in this playoff run because they'll be playing against different teams next year". Like, where is the logic in that? I don't imagine the fans in Ottawa are particularly attached to USL. 3 seasons in NASL, then 2 in USL. The attendance numbers stayed about the same. Maybe USL is blocking them from announcing that they are leaving, but I can't see them delaying an announcement because of the investment made by fans for this season, as 1996 was suggesting. CDNFootballer and gator 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I used to think that as well. Here's the problem with it. Cincinnatti announced they were leaving for MLS. What's the problem with the Fury doing the same with CanPL, if it's also a D1 league? Sometimes the answer is more simple then we think... Legal reasons... USL has no reason to advertise the departure of 1 of its clubs to a new unproven Canadian league nor would benefit from it. If the league says no to announcing it, the Fury has to keep quiet. As for Cincinnati going to MLS, it was beneficial to the league to announce it. Cincinnati upgrading to MLS further legitimized USL as a viable good league and they have a relationship with MLS. None of the above applies to USL and CPL. That simple Edited September 2, 2018 by Ansem 1996, longlugan, Red and White and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamrock Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Yeah any other CPL team would have been announced by now, they need time to get coaches and players and get all the organization in play. Maybe the Fury doesn't want to share it's players and they're having discussions about that now. I still think Ottawa Fury FC is the 8th team of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, CDNFootballer said: The USL is privately owned so the profits go to them to invest back in the league and pocket not the USL franchises. Would they be getting $usd 7 million per team, if there was no equity stake of some sort and share on annual profits? As things stand these teams are almost all losing money, so that seems unlikely to me. Don't doubt that the private owners of USL get a sizable slice first, however. 16 hours ago, CDNFootballer said: Broadcast fees for USL apparently went up this year, USL wages have been kept low and depreciated even however with the NASL on haitus and USL not needing to compete with them for the D2 players pool. As recently reported, some USL players are actually paid by the hour. Being in part a developmental league for MLS means that they can pay some very low wages for a few years by dangling the carrot of possibly getting an MLS contract eventually in the same way that most minor league baseball players are trying to get to "the show" and don't view it as the final destination. That's a good thing from a lower level pro ownership standpoint, if you want to keep expenses under control, because it avoids the type of wage spiral that killed the NASL when some owners (mainly the Cosmos and Miami FC) got it into their heads that they could compete with MLS over who is D1. If Ottawa are happier with the former type of setup as a low cost long term investment play very much second fiddle to the CFL team, they may be somewhat wary of some of the rhetoric coming from CanPL at the moment. We'll see what happens, basically. The main reason my gut instinct says they are out at least for 2019 is the feeling of deja vu I get reading Fury Fanatic's tweets after following the NASL-USL saga and the way CanPL is already getting the ball rolling on the mechanics of the launch without them. It's at times like this we can usually rely on Sofoeia (sp?) to give us the inside scoop from a CanPL perspective, but radio silence so far from that username. Edited September 2, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 You have to take what you see from anonymous sources online with a pinch of salt but some interesting snippets from the counterpart of this discussion on reddit: ...Based on what I've heard Ottawa is no longer at the table for CPL meetings/decisions. Part of the reason is some of the roster rules and the salary cap. I don't know the where they're at with the decision making, but it basically would force them to break up a huge chunk of their roster they built this year for moving over to the CPL... ...I dont think the CPL is doing that, but the cap some owners are pushing for is almost half of what Ottawa is paying for players now. It'll force them to break up a roster that they assembled in anticipation for this league... ...If the $500K salary cap is real, we'll have bigger things to worry about than whether Ottawa plays in Y1 in my opinion. What's impressed me so far is how the league has balanced initial expectations and ambitious targets, but a painfully low salary cap will suck momentum dry... ...which is the exact opposite of my line of reasoning immediately above that assumed they would see CanPL's budget and expectations as being unrealistically high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg_29 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: You have to take what you see from anonymous sources online with a pinch of salt but some interesting snippets from the counterpart of this discussion on reddit: ...Based on what I've heard Ottawa is no longer at the table for CPL meetings/decisions. Part of the reason is some of the roster rules and the salary cap. I don't know the where they're at with the decision making, but it basically would force them to break up a huge chunk of their roster they built this year for moving over to the CPL... ...I dont think the CPL is doing that, but the cap some owners are pushing for is almost half of what Ottawa is paying for players now. It'll force them to break up a roster that they assembled in anticipation for this league... ...If the $500K salary cap is real, we'll have bigger things to worry about than whether Ottawa plays in Y1 in my opinion. What's impressed me so far is how the league has balanced initial expectations and ambitious targets, but a painfully low salary cap will suck momentum dry... ...which is the exact opposite of my line of reasoning immediately above that assumed they would see CanPL's budget and expectations as being unrealistically high. Someone questions:"Where does the rumoured 500k cap come from? First I heard was 1.5 mil, then part of the Victoria group indicated they were hoping for < 1mil, now I see here 500k?" And that person responds with: "It's all rumours at this point, but I've heard it in this sequence as well - first $1.5, then ~$1M, then $500K. I think that it'll end up being $1-1.5 in the end, but there seems to be some posturing going on." I don't remember hearing anything recently about 500K salary cap recently...so I'm not sure where they are getting that from. CDNFootballer and Bbeto 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Have they not already had the meeting where the staff of the various teams were going to be told the roster rules and salary cap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDNFootballer Posted September 2, 2018 Author Share Posted September 2, 2018 8 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Would they be getting $usd 7 million per team, if there was no equity stake of some sort and share on annual profits? As things stand these teams are almost all losing money, so that seems unlikely to me. Don't doubt that the private owners of USL get a sizable slice first, however. Being in part a developmental league for MLS means that they can pay some very low wages for a few years by dangling the carrot of possibly getting an MLS contract eventually in the same way that most minor league baseball players are trying to get to "the show" and don't view it as the final destination. That's a good thing from a lower level pro ownership standpoint, if you want to keep expenses under control, because it avoids the type of wage spiral that killed the NASL when some owners (mainly the Cosmos and Miami FC) got it into their heads that they could compete with MLS over who is D1. If Ottawa are happier with the former type of setup as a low cost long term investment play very much second fiddle to the CFL team, they may be somewhat wary of some of the rhetoric coming from CanPL at the moment. We'll see what happens, basically. The main reason my gut instinct says they are out at least for 2019 is the feeling of deja vu I get reading Fury Fanatic's tweets after following the NASL-USL saga and the way CanPL is already getting the ball rolling on the mechanics of the launch without them. It's at times like this we can usually rely on Sofoeia (sp?) to give us the inside scoop from a CanPL perspective, but radio silence so far from that username. USL is getting $7 million expansion fee because they've built up their league on the backs of being MLS's minor league and can now ask for that amount. USL teams own nothing in the league and there's no sharing that fee, goes in the league's owner, Nurocks pocket. Teams benifit somewhat from the league having money to reinvest into the league infrastructure but with the streaming deal with ESPN3, like NASL, teams are now having to pay extra broadcasting fees on top of the yearly league fees that are around $200k this year. NASL's failures are/were a combination of things (poor ownership at some clubs, poaching by other leagues of clubs, the USSF's PLS requirements, etc.) and not in any large part to overspending on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Do you have a source for this about everything going into Nurock's pockets? There are tweets from FuryFanatic that fit the idea that the Fury are balking at having to give up most of the roster they have assembled. If owners elsewhere feel that the membership sales have been lower than they expected and/or are skewing too heavily to young fans that are likely to buy single tickets at the lowest supporters section price point a scaling back so the league can be sustainable on 3500 or so paid is the sensible way to go and has probably already been passed on recently to the staff at the various clubs, which would explain where the rumours are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protega Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Based on some of the posts above, I think the bigger issue now for the league is what type of product teams can possibly field with a $500k salary cap? Fury has struggled in a weak USL with a much higher salary base that than. I'm a sth, but to be honest, other than Adonijah Reid (who is only on loan and will be gone next season), that team is tough to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 This looks to me like a negotiation. CP boldly announces 8 teams and Ottawa has them metaphorically by the balls and is negotiating conditions. Apart from being loyal to where they are, USL (which seems right to me). If Ottawa falls through I predict a surprise 8th team, even one under the auspices of a current MLS side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2SKI Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 FM. If TFC fielded a 2nd team, and won the league, I would lose my goddamn mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg_29 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Protega said: Based on some of the posts above, I think the bigger issue now for the league is what type of product teams can possibly field with a $500k salary cap? Fury has struggled in a weak USL with a much higher salary base that than. I'm a sth, but to be honest, other than Adonijah Reid (who is only on loan and will be gone next season), that team is tough to watch. I've made this argument before but people are sort of trying to have it both ways when it comes mandating Canadian player requirements and saying the salaries need to be a certain level to have high-quality soccer. The "higher salaries to make it competitive" argument works a lot better when you are in a fully meritocratic system and not mandating half of the players need to be from one nationality... CPL has the luxury of sitting somewhere in between USL and MLS which is fairly wide range. And they really only need to be slightly above USL in terms of salaries starting out. My guess is it will end up being somewhere between $750k-$1Million. More realistic than $1.5Million imo. CDNFootballer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Just now, C2SKI said: FM. If TFC fielded a 2nd team, and won the league, I would lose my goddamn mind. It's the Whitecaps who really need a 2nd team, after cavalierly dumping WCII this season. In any case, if I am an MLS club, I'd say: let's get a franchise in this new Canadian league, it is not too expensive and we expand our business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandbloke Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Do you have a source for this about everything going into Nurock's pockets? There are tweets from FuryFanatic that fit the idea that the Fury are balking at having to give up most of the roster they have assembled. Why would the Fury be balking at that? They are a very mediocre USL team. If the level of play in CanPL is indeed higher than in USL, the Fury would not do well with their current roster. And were it not for Crépeau, arguably the best keeper in USL (and who will probably be returning to the Impact next year), the Fury would be near the bottom of the USL table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 If and that's still open to question the Reddit info is to be believed the Fury are a mediocre USL team with a player budget almost double CanPL's planned salary cap next year and they have just decided to steer clear of the launch for just that reason. If the salary cap is around $can 500k we are going to see something a lot more similar to the original CSL than we have been told up to now and that means something that has a significant semi-pro component to it as well as the core players that can be viewed as being fully pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandbloke Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: If and that's still open to question the Reddit info is to be believed the Fury are a mediocre USL team with a player budget almost double CanPL's planned salary cap next year and they have just decided to steer clear of the launch for just that reason. If the salary cap is around $can 500k we are going to see something a lot more similar to the original CSL than we have been told up to now and that means something that has a significant semi-pro component to it as well as the core players that can be viewed as being fully pro. How do you know what the Fury’s player budget is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Check the Reddit thread linked in the earlier posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said: It's the Whitecaps who really need a 2nd team, after cavalierly dumping WCII this season. It's not completely inconceivable that they are one of the four would be USL D3 teams that are in the sanctioning submission to the USSF but have not been publicly announced yet. I agree that the Fury have a strong negotiating hand right now but so do Victoria and York 9 if they want to keep the cap very low due to their sluggish membership sales. If they pull out the whole thing potentially unravels, so it may not be easy to reach a compromise on this if these guys on Reddit really do have the inside scoop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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