Ottawa CPL Club

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Exactly hence the saying "it's business, not personal"

I find it amusing that people find it "ok" for these two to conspire together to protect their interests but HOW DARE CPL even entertain furthering it's interest and setting the stage to compete for the market?

Lol

It's called elitism and it's in the newspapers every single day.  Certain people/entities can get away with things but if you're in the "out crew" you better not even think about stepping out of line, let alone do it.

[Sébastien]

22 hours ago, Ansem said:

That's inaccurate on many level.

CanPL, rightfully so, is beyond proving itself to OSEG. It's job is to plan and do what's best for it's business, not flirting none stop with the "49er" (a "4" who thinks it's a "9") and approach an "8" or more.

Of course, competing against Fury is risky business and I don't think there's a hurry to make Ottawa CPL happen. We have the luxury to just wait it out until CONCACAF and the CSA pulls the trigger.

However... the league would be "insane" to turn away a deep pocket ownership "willing" and "able" to invest money, to lose money over the long term to grow the club AND "willing to spend to compete for the market". Yes, it's sports but it's a business and people need to understand that the nature of businesses is to compete if they feel there are gains to be made in the long term. Didnt MLS let ownership establish NYCFC to compete against the established NY Cosmos? What happened there?

As always, you're so fixated on attendance (in bad faith) that you either ignore or don't understand that the business model could still be attractive to an owner who gets in early at low price despite the attendance (5 months old), but with CSB benefits and other streams of revenues.

If a very deep pocket group wants in while Fury are still there, CPL would be crazy to deny them, just like MLS welcomed NYCFC when the NY Cosmos thought themselves as "49ers"

 

 

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

NYCFC were stupid then. You have lower tolerance to risk, doesn't makes you right. 

The higher the risk, the higher the reward. If a rich ownership (who made their fortune by taking high risks) has the pockets to take a risk in a CPL market that has a USL team, who am I to tell them what to do with their money? They are richer than me for a reason...they have higher tolerance to risk than I ever will

Or there's competition 

Growing pains, sure. I did say that only very deep pockets could pull it off. Perhaps a serious ownership could make them blink and bring them faster to the table.

Status quo is exactly what OSEG wants and they have ZERO incentive to join CPL or leave as long as CONCACAF doesn't pull the trigger.

LOL - Ok, I was going to actually put forwars a real argument, but this is just ridiculous.

- You are comparing New York City to Ottawa as if they are analogous. Insane.

- You are saying that MLS vs NASL is the same as USL vs CPL. Crazy.

- You are stating that an MLS club, backed by two of the most well-known sports entities in the world, with the likes of Villa and Lamlard, is comparable to wtv unknown group setting up a CPL club. Laughable.

You keep talking about business 101. Have you even ever taken that class?

You love hating on Ozzy, but when it comes to this thread, look in the mirror, cause you're being him.

Until you start putting forward real arguments and stop telling every single Ottawa fan here why you understand their city better than they do themselves (like JamboAl, who has been on the scene longer than you've kicked a ball), welcome to the ignore list.

[narduch]

Ansem may be a little over the top but he makes a lot of good other points.

I do think that the longer the Fury stay in USL and the longer the CPL continues as a viable league, the threat of a 2nd Ottawa team becomes real. The Fury have to accept that.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Ansem may be a little over the top but he makes a lot of good other points.

I do think that the longer the Fury stay in USL and the longer the CPL continues as a viable league, the threat of a 2nd Ottawa team becomes real. The Fury have to accept that.

And also the more cost prohibitive it likely becomes to enter the league down the road (assuming some sort of entry fee that would rise as the league grows). 

[Cheeta]

I'll play.

If CPL corporately decides the league has to be in Ottawa and that it's willing to put it's money where it's mouth is they need to find an eighth partner to join the venture.  Imagine that would be easier to do if the CPL agreed to use the $10M expansion fee to assist covering the losses an Ottawa entrant may occur as long as they're in competition with the existing Fury.

Why would CPL do that?  Expansion fees are found money.  They'd be playing this game with the house's money as it were.  And strategically CPL really, really needs to get into that market.

Anyone think OSEG staring down that scenario is up for that fight? 

Maybe they are.  Lots of other variables would be coming into play if it came down to that.  But I have my doubts.  I think it highly more likely they'd either call it a day or partner in if they still could.  But that seems like a big if these days.

 

[JamboAl]

39 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

I'll play.

If CPL corporately decides the league has to be in Ottawa and that it's willing to put it's money where it's mouth is they need to find an eighth partner to join the venture.  Imagine that would be easier to do if the CPL agreed to use the $10M expansion fee to assist covering the losses an Ottawa entrant may occur as long as they're in competition with the existing Fury.

Why would CPL do that?  Expansion fees are found money.  They'd be playing this game with the house's money as it were.  And strategically CPL really, really needs to get into that market.

Anyone think OSEG staring down that scenario is up for that fight? 

Maybe they are.  Lots of other variables would be coming into play if it came down to that.  But I have my doubts.  I think it highly more likely they'd either call it a day or partner in if they still could.  But that seems like a big if these days.

 

That’s an interesting point about the use of an expansion fee.  It might even be that OSEG blinks first if it were to happen or even appear as a possibility to happen.  

The challenge is still a location to play that would have the same entertainment and transportation assets as TD Place cause I don’t think one exists.  But I’d assume any location would be temporary until a new CPL team could get into TD Place.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

You are comparing New York City to Ottawa as if they are analogous. Insane.

It's not about NYC and Ottawa. The principle of "competition" in business is the same as long as another party finds value in doing so and is willing to spend. I did say competing come at extra costs and only deep pockets can do that.

The league said other groups were interested in Ottawa, rumours and others posted the same while the league expressed their goal of being in the city to further it's interest... why? Because the league and prospective owners sees value. 

I'm just going by what the league is saying. All I do is explaining why it isn't as insane as some people keep saying it is.

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

You are saying that MLS vs NASL is the same as USL vs CPL. Crazy.

NASL in NYC was established much longer than USL ever was in Ottawa. This "glorification" of USL...I dont know where it comes from.

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

You are stating that an MLS club, backed by two of the most well-known sports entities in the world, with the likes of Villa and Lamlard, is comparable to wtv unknown group setting up a CPL club. Laughable.

I'm talking about the "situation" and the principle of competition in business. Please... dont act like most Americans even knew who those 2 were when they wanted to start the team. 

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

You keep talking about business 101. Have you even ever taken that class?

Yes and I've started a business and keep trying to start new businesses to diversify my revenues. Some people are not realizing that pro-sport is fundamentally a business. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to talk like "there's no way CPL or any groups would ever come in Ottawa". That's not reality, competition has always existed, that's all I'm saying and there's nothing controversial in saying that the Fury could end up with another club competing due to their stalling tactics. That's absolutely what they are doing.

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

You love hating on Ozzy, but when it comes to this thread, look in the mirror, cause you're being him

No I'm much worse than him. Dont insult the poor guy

2 hours ago, Sébastien said:

Until you start putting forward real arguments and stop telling every single Ottawa fan here why you understand their city better than they do themselves (like JamboAl, who has been on the scene longer than you've kicked a ball), welcome to the ignore list.

I gave you business arguments. It's ok to disagree. You're ignoring or acting like the league is either exaggerating or lying about their intention of entering the market OSEG or not which is a total logical business decision.

But hey, all that logic should be irrelevant due to the Fury current attendance...context, business models and so many other set of circumstances.

Whatever... agree to disagree

Edited October 4, 2019 by Ansem

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Ansem may be a little over the top but he makes a lot of good other points.

I do think that the longer the Fury stay in USL and the longer the CPL continues as a viable league, the threat of a 2nd Ottawa team becomes real. The Fury have to accept that.

Yes I like giving a different point of view but you explained it better than I did until now.

The bigger the league becomes coast to coast, the more likely it will just decide to pass on OSEG and compete outright.

The league is still a start-up so talking to OSEG who had lots of leverage was the right thing to do when the league had no media deal and hadn't started.

If the league gets big and breaks out, that's trouble for OSEG because it could become big enough to compete outright, something they aren't willing to do right now.

OSEG is playing with fire in my opinion and should get to the table and deal with CPL while it still can. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Ansem

[Big_M]

another day of business this business that..I know everything about business and you know nothing

[Ansem]

12 minutes ago, Big_M said:

another day of business this business that..I know everything about business and you know nothing

So the league is lying. There's no group interested in Ottawa. They were lying about going to Ottawa, OSEG or not.

You have a right to say the league is full of it or be skeptical of their approach. For me, it makes sense to not abandon the city until OSEG decides to join...for all we know, they will never join.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Ansem

[Big_M]

nothing to do with Ottawa..just bringing up business over and over in posts

[Ansem]

27 minutes ago, Big_M said:

nothing to do with Ottawa..just bringing up business over and over in posts

The big 4 aren't businesses. My bad. 

MLS sure isn't a business and those antitrust lawsuits are a figment of my imagination. Why would CSB even bother using the word "business".

Anyways...

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Yes and I've started a business and keep trying to start new businesses to diversify my revenues. 

I heard they are hoping to get a CPL team in Ottawa.....

[Ansem]

45 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I heard they are hoping to get a CPL team in Ottawa.....

Lol! My tolerance for risk for such a project makes me a wuss in comparison

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

19 hours ago, JamboAl said:

...But I will agree with you on one thing, I don't get any impression that the CPL is in OSEG's immediate plans.

And what some people will never do on here is consider with an open mind why the only investor group that currently has a choice between USL and CanPL would prefer the former and ponder whether others might also have viewed things that way if the CSA had not imposed the moratorium back in 2010. When this issue is viewed pragmatically what CanPL really needs to do is to expand in numbers terms beyond the point where having even one club fold creates an existential crisis and have more of its franchises drawing crowds at a level that suggest there is nothing to worry about in that regard.

[Viruk42]

46 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

And what some people will never do on here is consider with an open mind why the only investor group that currently has a choice between USL and CanPL would prefer the former and ponder whether others might also have viewed things that way if the CSA had not imposed the moratorium back in 2010. When this issue is viewed pragmatically what CanPL really needs to do is to expand in numbers terms beyond the point where having even one club fold creates an existential crisis and have more of its franchises drawing crowds at a level that suggest there is nothing to worry about in that regard.

If you're suggesting that CanPL is the only reason, I would argue you're doing exactly what you claim others are doing. They paid money to go to USL. If they stay, they can justify that entry fee, if they sell the franchise they can get it back, but if they move without selling it's gone and it's not like USL franchises sell+move very often. At this point the best case scenario for OSEG is to have someone buy the team (recouping some of the lost money) and move it to CanPL.

The one area where you're probably right is that a CanPL with, say, 12 teams that all draw 10k+ crowds would probably convince OSEG that they could profit from the league enough to offset the loss of leaving USL. But you're seemingly focused on CanPL warts too much to notice what else could be going on. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Viruk42

[JamboAl]

13 minutes ago, Viruk42 said:

If you're suggesting that CanPL is the only reason, I would argue you're doing exactly what you claim others are doing. They paid money to go to USL. If they stay, they can justify that entry fee, if they sell the franchise they can get it back, but if they move without selling it's gone and it's not like USL franchises sell+move very often. At this point the best case scenario for OSEG is to have someone buy the team (recouping some of the lost money) and move it to CanPL.

The one area where you're probably right is that a CanPL with, say, 12 teams that all draw 10k+ crowds would probably convince OSEG that they could profit from the league enough to offset the loss of leaving USL. But you're seemingly focused on CanPL warts too much to notice what else could be going on. 

Never mind 10,000 average crowds.  If 12 teams got 5,000 average crowds, my guess would be that OSEG would be very easily convinced.

[Bison44]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Never mind 10,000 average crowds.  If 12 teams got 5,000 average crowds, my guess would be that OSEG would be very easily convinced.

I'll take you one further, if we had 12 teams averaging 10K+, you might start to see Van and the Impact think about leaving MLS.  

And maybe this is a stupid question but have we ever seen USL teams sold??  Seems like the mysteriously appear and dissapear like mushrooms in my lawn.  

[PaulV]

43 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I'll take you one further, if we had 12 teams averaging 10K+, you might start to see Van and the Impact think about leaving MLS.  

And maybe this is a stupid question but have we ever seen USL teams sold??  Seems like the mysteriously appear and dissapear like mushrooms in my lawn.  

I've heard of teams sold that stay in place (Tampa Bay is one, sold to the Rays about a year ago) but I've personally never heard of a team sold and moved to a different city.  The USL is a privately owned league so I'm sure if that's permitted or what the league's policy is on that. If it were possible, you'd assume the clubs that went up to MLS would have sold their USLC teams to other cities but as far as I know that didn't happen.

[CDNFootballer]

3 hours ago, PaulV said:

I've heard of teams sold that stay in place (Tampa Bay is one, sold to the Rays about a year ago) but I've personally never heard of a team sold and moved to a different city.  The USL is a privately owned league so I'm sure if that's permitted or what the league's policy is on that. If it were possible, you'd assume the clubs that went up to MLS would have sold their USLC teams to other cities but as far as I know that didn't happen.

In USL one buys territorial rights to run a franchise in USL in a specific market (Ottawa for instance). Teams that have moved (Austin for instance) needed permission from the league and were done by the current owners, not a new owner coming in and moving the franchise.

Ottawa is in a somewhat unique position though as it has a yearly option to opt out of the league unlike the USA franchises in that league that have 10 year franchise agreements where exiting is heavily restricted and cost $.

[Gopherbashi]

We keep talking about Ottawa, but are there any good stadiums in Gatineau for CPL to scout out?

[JamboAl]

43 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

We keep talking about Ottawa, but are there any good stadiums in Gatineau for CPL to scout out?

In the true sense of a stadium, no.  There are pitches with bleachers at high schools.

[DrFitzpatrick]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 7:49 AM, JamboAl said:

In the true sense of a stadium, no.  There are pitches with bleachers at high schools.

So what you are saying is that there are plenty of CanPL calibre stadiums?

[Initial B]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:07 PM, CDNFootballer said:

Ottawa is in a somewhat unique position though as it has a yearly option to opt out of the league unlike the USA franchises in that league that have 10 year franchise agreements where exiting is heavily restricted and cost $.

I've never heard any of my Fury ticket reps say that they have an escape clause. They've told me in the past there are sunk costs to recoup before they jump leagues again, though honestly I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

As everyone in this thread is so fond of business metrics, I'm sure OSEG is looking at them as well. Most posters can't see why OSEG doesn't jump to the CanPL immediately. I say, follow the money - there must be some revenue streams that we're not privy to that makes staying in USL the better option right now. If CanPL went to OSEG and laid out their revenue streams and expenses and could demonstrate that the Fury would be more profitable in CanPL than USL, I bet the Fury would jump at the chance to increase their ROI. The fact that they haven't yet, despite rumours of losing millions over the past couple of years and ongoing discussions with CanPL, indicates to me that either there are risks that we don't know about or they are getting funding to stay afloat from another source.

The risks could be that CanPL is in its first season and we have to see if there is a sophomore slump in attendance figures in 2020. None of the CanPL clubs have a full season under their belt yet, so no costs have been published yet. Also, the Fury may have run numbers to indicate they can't afford to participate in CONCACAF League play if they managed to win the league. They know they'll never be able to win the Voyageurs Cup so they could still sell us fans on that dream of higher-level play. (Speaking of high-level play, the general consensus is that if the Fury joined, only Forge and Cavalry would provided any challenge, which I disagree with considering how we played against HFX Wanderers.)

The Fury have an affiliation with the Montreal Impact and also some loaned TFC players - perhaps one or both MLS teams are providing a subsidy to keep the Fury operating in the USL at a known talent level. But the CPL has shown they can defeat MLS-level clubs, so there may be a re-evaluation of the CanPL by MLS clubs in the off-season and may prod the Fury in the CanPL direction.

And as for those midweek attendance numbers quoted up-thread, I was at all those games and there is no way there were that many people in the stands versus Indy Eleven (those of use in the supporters section thought it was about 2500 max). But it was also a cool night and school had started up again, so they probably just used the Season Ticket base + the number of walk-up purchases.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

52 minutes ago, Initial B said:

... I say, follow the money - there must be some revenue streams that we're not privy to that makes staying in USL the better option right now. ...

A slice on expansion fees from teams that joined after they did is the obvious one, but it's usually claimed on here that only goes to the league owners.