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3 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Ok I get the part of Vanney not playing the kids enough but under him we still got two players that are an integral part of our national team right now Osario and Laryea . Two guys that were not highly touted when they got to TFC . The difference between Laryea and Osorio and say guys like Chapman, Hamilton and even Fraser in my opinion is that these three guys did not impress in the same way Osorio and Laryea did when they were given minutes to play . Yes Vanney wanted young players to impress right away make an impact right away , he did not seem to take into consideration that maybe some players needed more time to get comfortable and were not going to make an impact like Osorio and Laryea so quickly. Moreover, when you had players that Vanney had at his disposal with the talent and experience you really needed to pull off an Osorio and Laryea if you were a young player in order to get more minutes . One last thing every coach in the end is hired to win so you can’t knock Vanney for wanting to win, plus take into consideration what TFC was like when he took over . They were a disaster, one of the worst expansion teams ever up to that point when Vanney took over . Expansion teams that had been in the league a lot less than TFC up to that point were already doing better than them. To this day TFC is still one of the worst expansion teams in MLS history for taking the amount of time they did before they got it right. Moreover , TFC were not the Leafs were fans were going to show up no matter win or lose so Vanney was hired to to start winning right away .

Laryea was an 8th pick and had hype but Orlando did an Orlando, Osorio had a hit of hype we all wanted him called to the NT and Floro ignored him constantly.

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13 hours ago, costarg said:

It takes two things, equal doses of both.

1- The kid has to take his chance and stand out when he gets those first crumbs and minutes.

2- Someone has to instill the confidence and belief in them in order to do so.

Kaye thanks his coaches for getting that chance and believing in him. The coaches congratulate him on taking his chance and running with it. 

Ya but, which coaches? Certainly whoever managed Louisville and Bob Bradley,  but not everyone. 

This is the same guy who was basically quoted saying, he saw lots of his friends  who ended up nowhere and he wasn’t going to let that happen to him. Implication being, you can do everything you’re told but if that team doesn’t have the same interests, your career isn’t going to end up where you want it to. 

This goes a level beyond waiting for your opportunity and seizing any chance to play when it’s your turn (which is what I would argue is needed from more). It’s assertively banging in the door and demanding your chance. 

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26 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

Laryea was an 8th pick and had hype but Orlando did an Orlando, Osorio had a hit of hype we all wanted him called to the NT and Floro ignored him constantly.

But MLS draft position really means little. A huge number of those players flame out. He literally had to try out for TFC and come to camp before getting a contract. He was borderline hanging onto a spot in the league at that stage. I would credit Vanney for giving him the opportunity and seeing fullback was where his skills could be best used.

I’d be interested to hear what Osorio thinks of Vanney. He really had to put in his time to earn playing time and basically was preparing to look elsewhere at the end of his contract until some injuries pushed him up the rotation and he had a career year. To me, it feels like he’s had to work twice as hard as Delgado and was always shoehorned into different spots making his job that much more difficult. Not that Delgado is bad, but he seemed to be the first choice and to be frank I think he’s not as good or as versatile as Osorio. 

Overall, I would say the commonality with Vanney is playing older players. He doesn’t consistently trust anybody under 20 and if they do make the field, he hooks them fast when they screw up. He’ll take a consistent 5/10 from a Nick DeLeon rather than get a potentially better outcome from a rookie because he can’t stomach the downside. 

Edited by ag futbol
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16 hours ago, Macksam said:

Personal struggle like fathering a child, supporting one's family at a young age do develop one's character but you can't really rely on such things consistently, and I'm not sure a stint in a foreign land is really in the same ball park. 

All great points and fair feedback.  To be clear, I'm not advocating for personal struggle just seems to be that this type of person preserver more often than not. But that could be my media bias, where these personal struggles are highlighted for a good story vs. a kid that was just good and made the first team.

So I did a little research on Armas' time with Redbulls (2015-2020). 

Marsh was the head coach from 2015-2018 and Armas as assistant coach during that time. It was the same high-pressure tactical system.

During that window of time Redbulls produced - Miazga, Tyler Adams.  I'm sure there are others.

It's possible due to the nature of the press style, as others have outlined, that younger legs are necessary in order to maintain the press.  Therefore, younger players get a chance to play, develop and showcase at the pro level faster than tactics that require methodical buildup that require experience.

So, does that mean we will see younger players play sooner? I think so.  Does that mean they will develop faster? I think so.  Does it mean that we will TFC will take a step back competitively?  I'm not sure.  With Bradley stabilizing the midfield and Gonzalez in the back it maybe a smoother transition so long as goals can be produced. 

It also stands to reason that Armas is a 2-3 year fix until Bradley takes over the coaching reigns.

A lot of this season will be predicated on Altidore's health/performance.  My thoughts lead me to believe that TFC will take a step back if Peruzza, Akinola, Mullins, Achara or a potential new DP don't produce goals as I don't think there is enough goals production available from the wings and the midfield.  But if Nelson, Rutty, Akinola or Peruzza break out...it's game on.

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1 hour ago, ag futbol said:

But MLS draft position really means little. A huge number of those players flame out. He literally had to try out for TFC and come to camp before getting a contract. He was borderline hanging onto a spot in the league at that stage. I would credit Vanney for giving him the opportunity and seeing fullback was where his skills could be best used.

I’d be interested to hear what Osorio thinks of Vanney. He really had to put in his time to earn playing time and basically was preparing to look elsewhere at the end of his contract until some injuries pushed him up the rotation and he had a career year. To me, it feels like he’s had to work twice as hard as Delgado and was always shoehorned into different spots making his job that much more difficult. Not that Delgado is bad, but he seemed to be the first choice and to be frank I think he’s not as good or as versatile as Osorio. 

Overall, I would say the commonality with Vanney is playing older players. He doesn’t consistently trust anybody under 20 and if they do make the field, he hooks them fast when they screw up. He’ll take a consistent 5/10 from a Nick DeLeon rather than get a potentially better outcome from a rookie because he can’t stomach the downside. 

If you're speaking about 2017, I mean they won everything that year with Delgado in the lineup. You can't fault Vanney for that. Also 2011-2017 Oso was not as versatile or tactically astute as he is now. 

Based on what I recall, Oso always saw himself as a no. 10 but he never really had the end product for it. He seems to have a career rethink around 2017 working on his defensive commitments. Obviously now, he's better in most facets than Delgado.

Edited by PopePouri
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22 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

If you're speaking about 2017, I mean they won everything that year with Delgado in the lineup. You can't fault Vanney for that. Also 2011-2017 Oso was not as versatile or tactically astute as he is now. 

Based on what I recall, Oso always saw himself as a no. 10 but he never really had the end product for it. He seems to have a career rethink around 2017 working on his defensive commitments. Obviously now, he's better in most facets than Delgado.

One thing I really love about Osorio is that he works his tail off to improve his game. He was just an attacking midfielder and not a playmaker when he first joined TFC. Now he's extremely versatile, and he has significantly improved his defensive and stamina. 

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3 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

Laryea was an 8th pick and had hype but Orlando did an Orlando, Osorio had a hit of hype we all wanted him called to the NT and Floro ignored him constantly.

DIdnt Osorio get frozen out by Floro after a incident when he got subbed out??  Seems to me Floro did the same to Tiebert for some reason towards the end of Floros term.    

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2 hours ago, PopePouri said:

Based on what I recall, Oso always saw himself as a no. 10 but he never really had the end product for it. He seems to have a career rethink around 2017 working on his defensive commitments. Obviously now, he's better in most facets than Delgado.

Not only himself, but many posters here felt the same way.  I never saw him as the focal point "10" but he has matured and recognized what he needed to do to maximize his skillset without trying to write cheques he couldn't cash with his abilities.  Using a movie analogy, I remember saying that he was more of an excellent supporting cast character as a opposed to a leading man type.  And he is great in that supporting cast role, btw.

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30 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Not only himself, but many posters here felt the same way.  I never saw him as the focal point "10" but he has matured and recognized what he needed to do to maximize his skillset without trying to write cheques he couldn't cash with his abilities.  Using a movie analogy, I remember saying that he was more of an excellent supporting cast character as a opposed to a leading man type.  And he is great in that supporting cast role, btw.

When he first broke in, I thought he was a goal threat, but I think that's because he scored a few goals for a really bad TFC side. At some point I distinctly remember viewing him more as a defensive midfielder. His pressing is very smart, and I think his conditioning/athleticism caught up to the point where he could be a relentless presser. His evolution has been a joy to watch.

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14 minutes ago, Corazon said:

I hate dwelling on the past but just look what Okello, Priso, Shaffelburg & Peruzza were able to do against a top Mexican club.  Add in Nelson, Marshall-Rutty and Dunn in the mix.  Now imagine they had been available for our Olympic squad.

HAHA, I thought you were going to say, imagine if TFC played them all last year??

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2 hours ago, Corazon said:

I hate dwelling on the past but just look what Okello, Priso, Shaffelburg & Peruzza were able to do against a top Mexican club.  Add in Nelson, Marshall-Rutty and Dunn in the mix.  Now imagine they had been available for our Olympic squad.

Agreed, Priso has his good and bad moments but no reason to think we wouldn’t have qualified and pushed that Mexican team. 

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47 minutes ago, Markoaleks said:

With his size, skills, touch and athleticism - he is a potential “unicorn” - an amazing upside 

 

I don’t see how he’s a red after this year if his performances stay the same let alone rise. He’s very smart, he’s huge and great feet it seems, you can see why Wolfsburg wanted him and I think it will be a better club than them that calls this time. No way he didn’t catch some eyes over the past 2 games.

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Just now, Dominic94 said:

I don’t see how he’s a red after this year if his performances stay the same let alone rise. He’s very smart, he’s huge and great feet it seems, you can see why Wolfsburg wanted him and I think it will be a better club than them that calls this time. No way he didn’t catch some eyes over the past 2 games.

Agreed.  Very very few players have the combination of his size and athleticism combined with skill.   And he is only 20.  If he keeps this up, he may even be gone in the summer window.  Top 5 leagues will be taking a hard look at him.  As Jordan Hamilton said, his upside is huge.  He really could develop into a monster on the global stage and really be a dominant number 8. That being said, I think he would be much better going to a mid-tier side in the EPL or Bundesliga where he could be guaranteed minutes as he probably still needs a year or two to fully develop before transferring to a top tier side.

As someone else said, I really see him as a potential upgrade for Hutch when he decides to hang up his boots.  It would be great for Hutch to mentor him for the next year or so in the national team.

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6 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Agreed.  Very very few players have the combination of his size and athleticism combined with skill.   And he is only 20.  If he keeps this up, he may even be gone in the summer window.  Top 5 leagues will be taking a hard look at him.  As Jordan Hamilton said, his upside is huge.  He really could develop into a monster on the global stage and really be a dominant number 8. That being said, I think he would be much better going to a mid-tier side in the EPL or Bundesliga where he could be guaranteed minutes as he probably still needs a year or two to fully develop before transferring to a top tier side.

As someone else said, I really see him as a potential upgrade for Hutch when he decides to hang up his boots.  It would be great for Hutch to mentor him for the next year or so in the national team.

Agree on everything, the Adams comparison from Armas is appropriate. Long term he may be Toronto’s first “David” level of academy player. 

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There is something intoxicating about this guy. Jumbo sized attacking midfielder, looks like he's barely moving yet eats up ground impossibly quickly, languid style unrestrained from traditional notions of what should be done in certain situations be it nutmegging Mexican vets or doing a headed pass from 1 yard off the ground and playing possum to receive the return ball.

I think there will be growing pains and times where he drifts out of matches, but you can't take your eyes off him.

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I’m gonna have to catch the replay of these games or something because the level of hype on her right now is outrageous. I really hope you guys are right, but I think maybe we should calm down a bit. Saying things like he should go a mid level EPL team for “guaranteed minutes” (not to pick on @The Observer) overstates what he’s accomplished so far in my opinion. I’d absolutely love for him to go to a team like Leeds and earn a starting spot, but I think that’s the best case scenario, not a baseline level for him.

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