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I hate dwelling on the past but just look what Okello, Priso, Shaffelburg & Peruzza were able to do against a top Mexican club.  Add in Nelson, Marshall-Rutty and Dunn in the mix.  Now imagine the

Noble has been loaned out to HB Koge FC of the Danish second division for the remainder of the 2020 Fall season.  This is the same team that TFC loaned Rocco Romeo too (however Rocco's loan is for the

The MLS homegrown team wins the shoot-out 3-0 (the Mexicans missed all three PK's, with their keeper taking the first) and Okello (who wasn't one of the three shooters in the PK) takes home the MVP aw

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It is now or never for Noble. He needs first team games and at MLS level. 

Sending him on loan is fine but I don't think he breaks through at this level if he doesn't this year. Bit of a radical knee jerk statement given his age but I am going to stick with it.

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I must have watched a different game.  He was serviceable in his first game and maintained the defensive structure with a few good touches and passes.  He didn't impose himself.  This is a long burn prospect and the hype train will be very disappointed and unfairly.  He's got good feet and technical ability and kept up with the pace of the pro game.  To me that is a big challenge is to find himself and this level of pace.  It may take a couple of years as he has a reserved presence of play.

His development is predicated on opportunity and mentality.  With Priso being so good so fast the midfield is really crowded at TFC.  Be patient with Okello.  He will be good.  But he may need to go on a loan deal to Germany or to Belgium to really take the next step and be challenged mentally.  These loan deals are important for these prospects to grow up and mature.  TFC almost has too much infrastructure and pampers their academy players which may detract from the mindset of a pro.  There is real psychology behind Laryea becoming better once he had to (becoming a father), Akinola having to be a bread winner for his family etc. IMO.  Okello needs to become more aggressive, less tentative and pick up the pace.  Those you don't learn on the bench and most of that is mindset.

Just my opinion.  I'm not a licensed Coach.

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15 minutes ago, DigzTFC said:

I must have watched a different game.  He was serviceable in his first game and maintained the defensive structure with a few good touches and passes.  He didn't impose himself.  This is a long burn prospect and the hype train will be very disappointed and unfairly.  He's got good feet and technical ability and kept up with the pace of the pro game.  To me that is a big challenge is to find himself and this level of pace.  It may take a couple of years as he has a reserved presence of play.

His development is predicated on opportunity and mentality.  With Priso being so good so fast the midfield is really crowded at TFC.  Be patient with Okello.  He will be good.  But he may need to go on a loan deal to Germany or to Belgium to really take the next step and be challenged mentally.  These loan deals are important for these prospects to grow up and mature.  TFC almost has too much infrastructure and pampers their academy players which may detract from the mindset of a pro.  There is real psychology behind Laryea becoming better once he had to (becoming a father), Akinola having to be a bread winner for his family etc. IMO.  Okello needs to become more aggressive, less tentative and pick up the pace.  Those you don't learn on the bench and most of that is mindset.

Just my opinion.  I'm not a licensed Coach.

I agree that he wasn't amazing last night, but he had a couple WOW moments which I think is what is exciting people. My comment about him not being a CB was more about his style -- we don't want him nutmegging guys in his own box. Obviously we have to see him more consistently at a pro level (I didn't see him in USL or Denmark, only a little bit for the youth national teams) to see if his skill translates to on field production.

Side note: I can see why someone would make a Pogba comparison. Aesthetically, he moves like Pogba.

 

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It’s really lost on people that he was once a touted academy kid. He’s 20 he doesn’t need a loan, he’s to be given a chance to show his worth.

the reality is that Vanney didn’t play the kids nor trust them, in Europe it’s not uncommon to see a 16 year old make his first team debut but here it’s rare. We play our kids too late and they lose years.

TFC 2 was shambles which didn’t help, and I’d imagine that will change under Curtis, let’s not forget Red Bulls 2 was a good USL team under him.

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7 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

It’s really lost on people that he was once a touted academy kid. He’s 20 he doesn’t need a loan, he’s to be given a chance to show his worth.

the reality is that Vanney didn’t play the kids nor trust them, in Europe it’s not uncommon to see a 16 year old make his first team debut but here it’s rare. We play our kids too late and they lose years.

TFC 2 was shambles which didn’t help, and I’d imagine that will change under Curtis, let’s not forget Red Bulls 2 was a good USL team under him.

Exactly.  Vanney won some trophies, but he did zero for TFCs or the kids futures.  He wasn't in it for TFC longterm, that much was obvious.  He's ain't no Sir Alex Ferguson.

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1 hour ago, costarg said:

Exactly.  Vanney won some trophies, but he did zero for TFCs or the kids futures.  He wasn't in it for TFC longterm, that much was obvious.  He's ain't no Sir Alex Ferguson.

Exactly, I think short term the new TFC model may struggle at first, but that’s expected given that not all the current pieces can solve the new puzzle.

When Poz is healthy and the new Armas/Curtis style DP arrives the kids will have ample help. We can’t say that TFC doesn’t scout DP’s well they do. I think they may end up being the new model on how to play the kids and win, it is extremely wary and I don’t mean based on a game but I think the concept they’re trying will work when it’s a finished one. A second MVP caliber DP would be huge and relieve so much pressure on this team.

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We think they will try a new model.  It scared me that Dorsey is still even there.  And Armas seems to rate Mullins like Vanney did.  It wont take much to let all this "talk" of a change backslide and half way through the season we'll still be seeing mullins, Zav and Dorsey off the bench with Perruza, Nelsen, Rutty. Okello, Dunn stagnating and maybe only Priso in the regular rotation.  Its too crowded and there still might be a winger signing this summer.  They need to be honest with the kids and line up loans for at least some of them.  And if they arent going to play Shaff or Fraser trade them. 

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I honestly think it's as simple as: TFC want to start making money, and they want to do that by selling guys rather than winning titles. Last year was their last real go at the title so they said ok Greg, give it a go with the vets and planned on moving towards promoting youngsters as their main goal. So they bring in Armas, an affordable coach who has experience playing young guys and is fine with developing them.

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

We think they will try a new model.  It scared me that Dorsey is still even there.  And Armas seems to rate Mullins like Vanney did.  It wont take much to let all this "talk" of a change backslide and half way through the season we'll still be seeing mullins, Zav and Dorsey off the bench with Perruza, Nelsen, Rutty. Okello, Dunn stagnating and maybe only Priso in the regular rotation.  Its too crowded and there still might be a winger signing this summer.  They need to be honest with the kids and line up loans for at least some of them.  And if they arent going to play Shaff or Fraser trade them. 

With 5 subs for a whole season and the usual players who are made of glass (Altidore, Mavinga, etc.) and a "run your bloody heart out with a press" style, we are probably going to see a lot of minutes for a lot of different players this season, including the Yanks we don't fancy much. Hopefully not much of Dorsey (the one TFC player to not make a positive contribution to yesterday's game), but if he continues to show absolutely nothing and results don't go TFC's way, he will resume his seat in the press box.

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

We think they will try a new model.  It scared me that Dorsey is still even there.  And Armas seems to rate Mullins like Vanney did.  It wont take much to let all this "talk" of a change backslide and half way through the season we'll still be seeing mullins, Zav and Dorsey off the bench with Perruza, Nelsen, Rutty. Okello, Dunn stagnating and maybe only Priso in the regular rotation.  Its too crowded and there still might be a winger signing this summer.  They need to be honest with the kids and line up loans for at least some of them.  And if they arent going to play Shaff or Fraser trade them. 

Any new coach will want to evaluate what he has and make decisions from there.

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

We think they will try a new model.  It scared me that Dorsey is still even there.  And Armas seems to rate Mullins like Vanney did.  It wont take much to let all this "talk" of a change backslide and half way through the season we'll still be seeing mullins, Zav and Dorsey off the bench with Perruza, Nelsen, Rutty. Okello, Dunn stagnating and maybe only Priso in the regular rotation.  Its too crowded and there still might be a winger signing this summer.  They need to be honest with the kids and line up loans for at least some of them.  And if they arent going to play Shaff or Fraser trade them. 

i agree...how do they play gallardo and dorsey ahead of nelson.tfc passed on st clair and tajon to draft dorsey.

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1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

We think they will try a new model.  It scared me that Dorsey is still even there.  And Armas seems to rate Mullins like Vanney did.  It wont take much to let all this "talk" of a change backslide and half way through the season we'll still be seeing mullins, Zav and Dorsey off the bench with Perruza, Nelsen, Rutty. Okello, Dunn stagnating and maybe only Priso in the regular rotation.  Its too crowded and there still might be a winger signing this summer.  They need to be honest with the kids and line up loans for at least some of them.  And if they arent going to play Shaff or Fraser trade them. 

mullens was really good last night and scored a goal in the preseason. 

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I think we’ll see a decent amount of minutes for young players with TFC. I don’t think many of those minutes will go to the likes of Griffin Dorsey or other Americans coming out of NCAA.

Let’s not blow past the fact Armas played Priso (maybe the easy choice), Shaffleburg, and Okello.... and Fraser came on as a sub. That’s a pretty good start. In fact, I would venture that’s more minutes to academy players in a single game than Vanney has provide, ever. 

Now with a full choice roster obviously some of these minutes get cut back. But directionally it tells me the three guys who started all have a good prospect of getting a good amount of experience. 

they’ve relied on their academy before with RBNY, so this isn’t totally foreign 

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6 hours ago, DigzTFC said:

I must have watched a different game.  He was serviceable in his first game and maintained the defensive structure with a few good touches and passes.  He didn't impose himself.  This is a long burn prospect and the hype train will be very disappointed and unfairly.  He's got good feet and technical ability and kept up with the pace of the pro game.  To me that is a big challenge is to find himself and this level of pace.  It may take a couple of years as he has a reserved presence of play.

His development is predicated on opportunity and mentality.  With Priso being so good so fast the midfield is really crowded at TFC.  Be patient with Okello.  He will be good.  But he may need to go on a loan deal to Germany or to Belgium to really take the next step and be challenged mentally.  These loan deals are important for these prospects to grow up and mature.  TFC almost has too much infrastructure and pampers their academy players which may detract from the mindset of a pro.  There is real psychology behind Laryea becoming better once he had to (becoming a father), Akinola having to be a bread winner for his family etc. IMO.  Okello needs to become more aggressive, less tentative and pick up the pace.  Those you don't learn on the bench and most of that is mindset.

Just my opinion.  I'm not a licensed Coach.

I agree about the players needing to be more aggressive, I still remember my Jay Chapman rant from a few years ago about how he thought it was acceptable to receive a pass, dribble a couple of yards before lateral passing to someone else when he made his first or second senior  appearance for TFC.

Obviously Okello is not like that but he should watch Ajax's game today and see Gravenberch, how he's all over the place, putting a leg into everything within a 5 yard radius of him. 

As for the necessity of loan arrangements for up and comers? I don't know. There are clubs in Europe that have even more infrastructure than TFC and kids make it through fine. Personal struggle like fathering a child, supporting one's family at a young age do develop one's character but you can't really rely on such things consistently, and I'm not sure a stint in a foreign land is really in the same ball park.  Most of these kids won't have much struggle to deal with, and that's neither here or there really. TFC just need to do a better job integrating the academy players into the first team and that's all down to modifying the club's structure. 

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1 minute ago, Macksam said:

I agree about the players needing to be more aggressive, I still remember my Jay Chapman rant from a few years ago about how he thought it was acceptable to receive a pass, dribble a couple of yards before lateral passing to someone else when he made his first or second senior  appearance for TFC.

Obviously Okello is not like that but he should watch Ajax's game today and see Gravenberch, how he's all over the place, putting a leg into everything within a 5 yard radius of him. 

As for the necessity of loan arrangements for up and comers? I don't know. There are clubs in Europe that have even more infrastructure than TFC and kids make it through fine. Personal struggle like fathering a child, supporting one's family at a young age do develop one's character but you can't really rely on such things consistently, and I'm not sure a stint in a foreign land is really in the same ball park.  Most of these kids won't have much struggle to deal with, and that's neither here or there really. TFC just need to do a better job integrating the academy players into the first team and that's all down to modifying the club's structure. 

You have a point. I find the make or break item in many of our prospects is not raw talent but having the right mentality.

A lot of these guys (not speaking of TFC or current crop of players specifically) don’t seem to understand what it takes to go that last mile and actually establish yourself as a pro. It’s like they are just waiting for opportunity to come to them. It’s the guys who take it personally, like Kaye for example, who have the staying power.

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1 hour ago, ag futbol said:

You have a point. I find the make or break item in many of our prospects is not raw talent but having the right mentality.

A lot of these guys (not speaking of TFC or current crop of players specifically) don’t seem to understand what it takes to go that last mile and actually establish yourself as a pro. It’s like they are just waiting for opportunity to come to them. It’s the guys who take it personally, like Kaye for example, who have the staying power.

True, and if the guys running the show aren't drilling this fact into the kids, they should be. As a kid, I thought all you needed to do was practice once or twice a week and play the scheduled match a day after that but nah, that is the bare minimum, but nobody told me any better and I washed out like most of my peers. The truth is every spare chance you get needs to involve having the ball at your feet, practicing drills, Coerver, dribbles even if this is by yourself. That's the only way you will ever make it.

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1 hour ago, ag futbol said:

You have a point. I find the make or break item in many of our prospects is not raw talent but having the right mentality.

A lot of these guys (not speaking of TFC or current crop of players specifically) don’t seem to understand what it takes to go that last mile and actually establish yourself as a pro. It’s like they are just waiting for opportunity to come to them. It’s the guys who take it personally, like Kaye for example, who have the staying power.

It takes two things, equal doses of both.

1- The kid has to take his chance and stand out when he gets those first crumbs and minutes.

2- Someone has to instill the confidence and belief in them in order to do so.

Kaye thanks his coaches for getting that chance and believing in him. The coaches congratulate him on taking his chance and running with it.

Sir Alex Ferguson saw himself staying with United for 20+ years, it was in his interest to develop the next generation.  He groomed them, gave them confidence, advice and did everything a father does.

Vanney didn't see himself staying in Toronto, he had a short term plan, wanted the wins, the paycheck and to move back to the US.  He had his click that would deliver on the short term, while ignoring the kids.  Frankly, he just didn't care, he knew he wouldn't be there when they came of age.     

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9 minutes ago, costarg said:

It takes two things, equal doses of both.

1- The kid has to take his chance and stand out when he gets those first crumbs and minutes.

2- Someone has to instill the confidence and belief in them in order to do so.

Kaye thanks his coaches for getting that chance and believing in him. The coaches congratulate him on taking his chance and running with it.

Sir Alex Ferguson saw himself staying with United for 20+ years, it was in his interest to develop the next generation.  He groomed them, gave them confidence, advice and did everything a father does.

Vanney didn't see himself staying in Toronto, he had a short term plan, wanted the wins, the paycheck and to move back to the US.  He had his click that would deliver on the short term, while ignoring the kids.  Frankly, he just didn't care, he knew he wouldn't be there when they came of age.     

The funny thing is that you see this same contrasting mentality even at intermediate school sports.  If a school team coach is a “rental” (often a parent-coach who is just coaching the team while their kid is in the school) they put a lot of focus and effort on the results that will happen during their limited tenure.  My son’s bball team was coached by one of his teammate’s/classmate’s parents and it worked out really well for him because he was going to be involved for the same three years.  But for the young guys on the team, there was very little floor time.  

The contrast are those schools where the person coaching the team is heavily involved with the school over the long haul.  They have been around a long time and know that the kids you ignore in grade 7 will just be your under-performing starters in 2 years.  They are more invested in the long term outcomes and balancing playing time.  

Whether it was basketball or volleyball you could really see the different styles even at the junior high level.   

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6 hours ago, ag futbol said:

A lot of these guys (not speaking of TFC or current crop of players specifically) don’t seem to understand what it takes to go that last mile and actually establish yourself as a pro. It’s like they are just waiting for opportunity to come to them. 

I see this with Theo Bair, unfortunately, but I really hope he proves me wrong this year.  I sense that the striker they drafted from Akron may be more than just a throw in depth piece:  Egbo's selection plus Schuster's preseason comments about playing Bair in more of a central role might be more of challenge for him to up his game. 

4 hours ago, costarg said:

Sir Alex Ferguson saw himself staying with United for 20+ years, it was in his interest to develop the next generation.  He groomed them, gave them confidence, advice and did everything a father does.

Vanney didn't see himself staying in Toronto, he had a short term plan, wanted the wins, the paycheck and to move back to the US.  He had his click that would deliver on the short term, while ignoring the kids.  Frankly, he just didn't care, he knew he wouldn't be there when they came of age.     

I wonder how Vanney compares in that area to other similarly tenured managers with the same MLS club?  

 

 

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40 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I wonder how Vanney compares in that area to other similarly tenured managers with the same MLS club?  

As much as I think Vanney was short sighted, he probably isnt any worse than a lot of MLS managers.  The whole organization has to be behind it.  The worst part is, TFC sinks plenty of money into the academy, has plenty of good prospects (tons of talent coming out of the area) but never seems to have enough faith in the kids.  And it doesnt have to be a crazy youth movement, just a couple of comfort food players out the door.  Skip just a couple late 20 journeymen for a couple kids.  Endoh for Shaff/Nelsen/Rutty, Mullins for Perruza/Hamilton, Maybe you are a bit worse off, but maybe one of those kids breaks through for you with more PT.    

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10 hours ago, costarg said:

It takes two things, equal doses of both.

1- The kid has to take his chance and stand out when he gets those first crumbs and minutes.

2- Someone has to instill the confidence and belief in them in order to do so.

Kaye thanks his coaches for getting that chance and believing in him. The coaches congratulate him on taking his chance and running with it.

Sir Alex Ferguson saw himself staying with United for 20+ years, it was in his interest to develop the next generation.  He groomed them, gave them confidence, advice and did everything a father does.

Vanney didn't see himself staying in Toronto, he had a short term plan, wanted the wins, the paycheck and to move back to the US.  He had his click that would deliver on the short term, while ignoring the kids.  Frankly, he just didn't care, he knew he wouldn't be there when they came of age.     

Ok I get the part of Vanney not playing the kids enough but under him we still got two players that are an integral part of our national team right now Osario and Laryea . Two guys that were not highly touted when they got to TFC . The difference between Laryea and Osorio and say guys like Chapman, Hamilton and even Fraser in my opinion is that these three guys did not impress in the same way Osorio and Laryea did when they were given minutes to play . Yes Vanney wanted young players to impress right away make an impact right away , he did not seem to take into consideration that maybe some players needed more time to get comfortable and were not going to make an impact like Osorio and Laryea so quickly. Moreover, when you had players that Vanney had at his disposal with the talent and experience you really needed to pull off an Osorio and Laryea if you were a young player in order to get more minutes . One last thing every coach in the end is hired to win so you can’t knock Vanney for wanting to win, plus take into consideration what TFC was like when he took over . They were a disaster, one of the worst expansion teams ever up to that point when Vanney took over . Expansion teams that had been in the league a lot less than TFC up to that point were already doing better than them. To this day TFC is still one of the worst expansion teams in MLS history for taking the amount of time they did before they got it right. Moreover , TFC were not the Leafs were fans were going to show up no matter win or lose so Vanney was hired to to start winning right away .

Edited by SoccMan
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