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CPL Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

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5 hours ago, Cblake said:

Does the CSA have formal standards for D2 leagues/teams like the USSF does?

They may or may not, haven't seen any specific pro league standards layed out for Canada as they have been for USSF in the USA.

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17 hours ago, mtlsab said:

West (BC, AB, Sask)

Center (Manitoba, Ontario)

East (Québec, Atlantic)

I would have Manitoba in the Western League because getting to Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary and Edmonton Would be easier for a Winnipeg team than to Ottawa or Toronto. Also Ontario has a large population able to support a lot of teams. It is better to have another population centre supporting a team in the West.

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6 hours ago, Ruffian said:

I would have Manitoba in the Western League because getting to Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary and Edmonton Would be easier for a Winnipeg team than to Ottawa or Toronto. Also Ontario has a large population able to support a lot of teams. It is better to have another population centre supporting a team in the West.

It is important that Manitoba plays with Ontario since Winnipeg is the closest city for Thunder Bay

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1 hour ago, Lofty said:

I'd go with four divisions: Pacific, West, East, Atlantic.

So, the same footprint as D3 more or less?

 

 

Edited by ted

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34 minutes ago, ted said:

So, the same footprint as D3 more or less?

I'd say so, if that is the D3 footprint. Travel is definitely a major issue for D2 and lower because their revenue will be sustantially less. Prairies will be a bit of a problem because of the low population density but there is no way around that.

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Personally, I think you keep the regions at West, Ontario, and East because that breaks down the population into almost equal pieces. I would further break down Div 3 into BC, Alberta, Prairies, Ontario West, Ontario East, Quebec, and Maritimes.

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6 hours ago, Initial B said:

Personally, I think you keep the regions at West, Ontario, and East because that breaks down the population into almost equal pieces. I would further break down Div 3 into BC, Alberta, Prairies, Ontario West, Ontario East, Quebec, and Maritimes.

Yeah that sounds about right.

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In my mind promotion relegation simply does not make sense. Think of it from this standpoint, say the CPL does get to say 16 teams. That would greatly help with travel so are you going to go and negate that by breaking those 16 teams into two levels. I just do not see it. 

I still doubt the CPL can get to that number anyways as the major issue has been facilities. So when it comes to D2 will be a completely independent thing as has been discussed. So looking at Ontario you can go along with the 401 and into Quebec. So with K-W, London and Windsor, I figure one of those will go CPL so you do have the other two. It will be interesting to see if a lower level is economically viable compared to what we already have in the provincial D3 leagues? Thats the question for me. 

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I think rather than even calling it Div 2, you just call it a reserve league.  Let the MLS clubs drop their reserve teams in.  Let other teams that don't have the finances/abilities to get to CPL play if they want.  Let any CPL team with the ambition/finances put a team in.  Let any independent teams play in the Voyagers Cup.  By calling it a reserve league you definitively put it below CPL, while also not confusing it with any future CPL Div 2 (which I have my doubts will ever come about, but that's a separate discussion).

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24 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think rather than even calling it Div 2, you just call it a reserve league.  Let the MLS clubs drop their reserve teams in.  Let other teams that don't have the finances/abilities to get to CPL play if they want.  Let any CPL team with the ambition/finances put a team in.  Let any independent teams play in the Voyagers Cup.  By calling it a reserve league you definitively put it below CPL, while also not confusing it with any future CPL Div 2 (which I have my doubts will ever come about, but that's a separate discussion).

If you look back at the last 10-15 years in this country, the three levels have been the MLS,  USL/NASL and then the province D3 leagues. With the introduction of the CPL that has not really changed, its just that the D2 setup has been rolled into another tier of D1. Also the CPL will have a much bigger footprint that anything we have had at this level before, especially as the league grows. So with that in mind it has to be determined what is D2 , maybe as its been talked about its some sort of low budget pro league with a regional foot print but beyond that I do not see much a future for that level. The CPL in my eyes will grow to 12-16 teams and as such with the geographic vastness of our country, promotion /relegation simply does not makes sense on so many levels. 

I think the place for CPL reserve teams in all honesty is in the province D3 leagues. Considering how much the CPL has relied on L10 players to fill out rosters it makes total sense when by 2021 we should have three of them with the BC in addition to Ontario and Quebec. 

 

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On 1/18/2020 at 10:18 AM, Cblake said:

In my mind promotion relegation simply does not make sense. Think of it from this standpoint, say the CPL does get to say 16 teams. That would greatly help with travel so are you going to go and negate that by breaking those 16 teams into two levels. I just do not see it.

I think if there is going to be a D2 it will have to be done without contraction of the CPL. Ideally when the CPL is at whatever they want, 12 teams or 16 teams, if they had one or two more would be CPL expansion teams ready to start up and several that are ready to be promoted from D3 leagues, they could get 6 or 7 teams in D2 that way. That way you don’t go from a 16 team CPL one year to an 8 team CPL the next.

That is way off in the future (or maybe dreamland) though. Let’s get to 8 teams and go from there.

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I think what you'll eventually see in the short term is dividing the league into Conferences to help lessen the travel and allow more clubs to enter the league. Then when they reach a critical mass (say, 24 teams?) they will take the top ten teams from each conference and make a nationwide single-table that will be the new Div 1 while keeping the remaining lower division teams in conferences.

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1 hour ago, Initial B said:

I think what you'll eventually see in the short term is dividing the league into Conferences to help lessen the travel and allow more clubs to enter the league. Then when they reach a critical mass (say, 24 teams?) they will take the top ten teams from each conference and make a nationwide single-table that will be the new Div 1 while keeping the remaining lower division teams in conferences.

Wait, are you suggesting after this single table there will be 4 teams in D2 split into 2 conferences? Play the other team in your conference 20 times and the 2 teams in the other conference home and away to give you a 24 game season?

Somehow I don’t see that working.

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24 teams, even 20 teams do not see it. With the supposed entry into our nation's capital that gives you eight. I think there is a pretty clear path that we can all see to 12-14 teams. Say you add in 2 teams in Quebec, Regina, the Greater Vancouver Area, another southern Ontario team ie London, KW or Windsor etc, maybe Moncton. Now the question marks are can you do both KW or London? Can you do both Regina and Saskatoon? I am also pretty confident someone/group will pop up at some point thinking they have the plan for success for a team in Toronto proper ie downtown. So when you reach that number I just not seen it making sense to break into two tiers on so many levels. Travel being a major one, value of the teams another and so on. If D2 does pop up in some form I really think it will be something unrelated to the CPL. 

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22 hours ago, Kent said:

Wait, are you suggesting after this single table there will be 4 teams in D2 split into 2 conferences? Play the other team in your conference 20 times and the 2 teams in the other conference home and away to give you a 24 game season?

Somehow I don’t see that working.

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant to say the top 10 teams for the entire league. I'm not sure if it would be better to choose the top 5 from each conference or the top 10 teams in points regardless of conference. That would be something for the CanPL executive to decide if they ever got to that point. At 20 teams in two conferences, that's a 28 game schedule if you play once against an opposing conference team and twice against in-conference teams. Once they confirm teams 21 and 22 for the following season, they could announce they'll be splitting off the top 8 clubs into an elite division while keeping 7 teams in each conference. 

The lower group would continue playing with the regular season format, with the playoff winner getting promoted to the elite division. The elite division would play 4 games against every other elite team in a split season, with playoffs between the winners of the fall and spring seasons with the winner crowned at the end of the season. The bottom two teams would also play a sudden-death single-game match at the second-lowest placed team's stadium, with the loser being relegated back to one of the conferences.

edit: Alternatively at the end of the season, they could have each season's champion and the next two teams with the highest overall points totals play a two stage final, while the remaining four elite teams play each other in a two stage relegation battle. That would pretty much guarantee that every match played in the elite division could have massive implications for the season.

Edited by Initial B

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The main problem here is that a lot of people suggest that the D2 should be introduced when the D1 have more teams, but you do it in the wrong way. The D1 should have more teams when the D2 will have more teams. a D2 could be a good solution for the investors to have a pro level without all the restrictions (budget, stadium)

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If any Canadian Division 2 is set up it will likely be this :

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/arnie-we-need-a-second-division-529723

a reserves division mostly U23

having the same type of discussion in Australia re: D2 soccer 

Interesting read.

 

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On 1/21/2020 at 5:48 AM, mtlsab said:

The main problem here is that a lot of people suggest that the D2 should be introduced when the D1 have more teams, but you do it in the wrong way. The D1 should have more teams when the D2 will have more teams. a D2 could be a good solution for the investors to have a pro level without all the restrictions (budget, stadium)

Just wanted to bump this thread with this quote that I totally agree with. There's some discussion in the MOACA about the USLC imposing restrictions on Canadians. I think D2 would solve so many problems and we seem so close already, particular if you rolled in the existing (and perhaps former) USL2 sides.

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If the league can grow to 12-15 teams with  academies attached to each program that will be a massive success. Relegation systems and d2 is something that is miles away if it’s even feasible 

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Just now, top cheese said:

If the league can grow to 12-15 teams with  academies attached to each program that will be a massive success. Relegation systems and d2 is something that is miles away if it’s even feasible 

Let's ignore the promotion/relegation point for now. And the academies. How do you grow to 12-15 sides at the current standard? If Murrell, Thomas and Legault are below average CPL players, I don't think you can count on all 25 guys in USLC to be CPL players. If you have TFCII in USL1, they will continue to hoard many of the youth national team players. I think at D2 discussion would at least have to consider the MLS sides. What's happening right now with the hoarding of academy players rotting on the bench and in USSDA (which is not a competitive level at all we've found) is a total disservices to developing National Team players. D2 solves a lot of problems in my view.

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Just a quick reminder about current and historical clubs in USL2:

Abbotsford 86ers

Abbotsford Rangers

Calgary Foothills

Calgary Storm

Forest City London

Hamilton FC Rage

K&W United

Ottawa Fury

Thunder Bay Chill

Toronto Lynx

TSS Rovers

Victoria Highlanders

WSA Winnipeg

FC Manitoba

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I think what you have to figure out is what exactly D2 would be? In essence you are creating a level between the CPL and the provincial D3 leagues. We have MLS, CPL and L10/PLSQ. As we know we going to get a third D3 league in BC. Not knowing much about the USSDA leagues, I look to  USL L1 for the development of at least the older TFC Academy players. 

D2 to me is an unknown as I do not see promotion/relegation being all the realistic at this point and in some ways ever. Why as an owner would I risk my investment my advocating for it. It the same way I feel about MLS and this subject. I see it as some sort of league completely seperate form the CPL as this point. 

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I would make D2 a combination of D3 sides wanting to step up (Vaughan, Oakville, Blainville, etc). USL2 sides, interested investors with limited resources and, possibly MLS2 sides. I'd go two regional divisions of 8 clubs. Bus travel, little TV unless OneSoccer needs content, and take what you can get stadiums.

I'm not sure exactly how to answer the investment question. It would appeal to those who don't want to spend big dollars. There are already such investments going on in USL2 and certainly with the MLS clubs. Hell, maybe you force the MLS clubs through sanctioning to subsidize the whole thing. I don't know. You could give everyone a lesser cut of CSB and have a collaborative approach. There are lots of models that could work, because we're really talking about taking what is already there and tweaking it a bit into the pyramid.

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