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CPL Division II - Pro/Rel discussion


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1 hour ago, Kent said:

Especially with the Sask Selects mentioned, which we have previously thought was heading for CPL.

Joe Belan is using the SSS to test the market. Once he launch his team, it won't be the SSS team although some players might make the team. I'm thinking Cavalry--Foothills dynamic. SSS team could well branch off, find investors and put a D2 in Regina or elsewhere in Saskatchewan.

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Is this D2 getting started too early and cannibalizing the CPL?

I think it's good to get a head start on this instead of rushing later. There's no scenario where I can imagine a D2 being sanctioned without CPL & CSB. The money in soccer in this country outside of MLS teams is now within CPL & CSB

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Are these teams just trying to avoid the expansion fees for CPL?

I see it more as admitting that they can't afford CPL but wanting to go fully pro and be part of the new Canadian soccer dynamic. They must be hoping for a scheme that allows them to go fully pro without paying CPL fee, which they can't afford right now. The net result is that amateur / semi-pro clubs "wants" to go fully pro. That's a huge positive in this country.

I was hoping for a "coast to coast" National D2 but they seems to prefer a CHL style national league with regionalized leagues.

so we could be looking at

Division 1

  • Canadian Premier League
  • National Single Table

Division 2

  • Western League (Like CHL or split between Prairies and Pacific)
  • Quebec-Windsor corridor League
  • Atlantic League
  • Memorial Cup tournament

Division 3

  • Provincial Leagues

 

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Or would they use this as a step in the right direction and then move up to CPL when their stadium situation is more suitable?

More like going pro within their means and aspire to CPL through pro/rel later on.

Edited by Ansem
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So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East. Scottish and F

My AB source tells me a official press release for Div 2 is in store this week... as early as this Friday.  Can confirm that TSS and Highlanders are out.  All the money they have is tied up in some mu

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9 minutes ago, mtlsab said:

I hope there wont be any East-West conference, especially with all these cities in the centre.

I believe the best way would be

West (BC, Alberta,Sask)

Center (Manitoba, Ontario)

East (Québec, Atlantic)

I think for travel personally, it should be split a in four: West (BC, AB), Central (SK, MB, Thunder Bay), East (Ontario, Quebec), Atlantic

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I agree with the four, but just slightly different. I would keep it similar to how USPORTS (the university sports association) divides the conferences. Canada West (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia), Ontario, Quebec, and The Maritimes. It also works very well with the disperse population. Ontario and Quebec have by far more people than the rest of Canada, so it would make sense. We could be seeing somewhere around the lines of 10 teams per conference. Maybe an 18 game season (home and away against the other teams from their conference). Regarding promotion and relegation from CPL, I would say probably the winners and runner ups of each division make a playoffs. Split them into two groups, each with two group winners and two runner ups. Each group plays their opponent once each (at a neutral location). The group winners play in a final and both get promoted. In other words, two teams would get promoted.

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2 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

I think for travel personally, it should be split a in four: West (BC, AB), Central (SK, MB, Thunder Bay), East (Ontario, Quebec), Atlantic

The Quebec-Windsor corridor is easy to travel, even by just train. It should be it's own league like you pointed out.

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D2 and relegation systems are a long ways away if it ever comes. If cpl can get to 12-14 teams that are stable and have parity your looking good. That’s getting very ahead of ourselves. 

Once the league stabilizes itself through the next round of expansion [ say Ottawa, Quebec, Laval, sask). It should be looking at a means for teams to establish proper youth academy programming and reserve teams that participate in pdl. 

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1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I see this as quite positive.

@Kent - I get what you are saying re cannibalizing interest, but when I think of a group like the SK folks, the chance to have a test season in advance of an all or nothing launch (potentially with a price tag of $9M if the rumours are true) seems well worth any kind of disincentive to joining CPL directly.  As others just noted, this gives folks a clear and affordable path into pro soccer, with CPL being there whenever a team is ready to make the jump.  

It also potentially integrates the MLS reserve sides into the Canadian structure and encourages better cooperation among those differing interests. 

If I was the three MLS sides, I would be doing some thinking about what this could mean for their future in the long run.  I think it is clear that the Fury were not an isolated consideration, and it seems like there is a bit of a master plan in place when it comes to the use of sanctioning to strengthen our domestic soccer landscape.  The action has all taken place USL and below so far, but if i was sitting in the tier above that I would maybe be a bit nervous. 

MLS just sold an expansion team to Charlotte for $325 million, up from the $250m of the last round.  They make a ton of money of SUM.  If I'm one of the 3 MLS sides and the CSA tried to force me to sell and join a much, much smaller league, my response would be that I'll see you in court.  Having said that, I don't think there's any desire from the CSA to force the 3 MLS teams out.  I think there's a benefit to having the 3 biggest cities in a higher profile league.

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I don't see this league as a negative, but I do think it scuttles any pro/rel.  I think it ends up with the 3 MLS reserve sides, current PDL teams that won't ever make the jump to CPL but have more ambition than just PDL (Victoria Highlanders, TSS Rovers, Calgary foothills, maybe Thunder Bay?) and a small handful of teams that might have ambition for CPL but need to line a few things up (better stadium, additional financing, etc).  I don't have a problem with this, I think there's still a use for it in this country, but it's also not a league I would want teams being relegated in to.

Plus, I wouldn't think that this league would be directly part of CSB.  If teams are joining this league to avoid expansion fees or because they're ineligible for the CPL (the MLS reserve sides), they probably shouldn't be getting a share of CSB money either.

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14 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

MLS just sold an expansion team to Charlotte for $325 million, up from the $250m of the last round.  They make a ton of money of SUM.  If I'm one of the 3 MLS sides and the CSA tried to force me to sell and join a much, much smaller league, my response would be that I'll see you in court.  Having said that, I don't think there's any desire from the CSA to force the 3 MLS teams out.  I think there's a benefit to having the 3 biggest cities in a higher profile league.

I agree that there is a reason for continued exceptional circumstances (as I have said many times elsewhere) and I am not against their continued participation in MLS.  We have a strong presence in what I suspect will be a top 5 or 6 league in another decade or two.  

I am just pointing out that if I was an MLS side watching the sanctioning tool being used to reshape the soccer landscape of North America, I might be getting a bit twitchy at this point.  And for the record, I don't think it would be the CSA pulling the trigger if things got shook up at that level - it would be CONCACAF channeling FIFA.

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29 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

MLS just sold an expansion team to Charlotte for $325 million, up from the $250m of the last round.  They make a ton of money of SUM.  If I'm one of the 3 MLS sides and the CSA tried to force me to sell and join a much, much smaller league, my response would be that I'll see you in court. 

And argue what exactly? That they paid between $10M-$40M and it would be a crime to sell their franchise for like $400M+ to an other ownership? Nothing stops them from relocating either.

Other point, nothing stops them from fielding a team out of BMO Field, but not complying means no sanctioning. Would MLS play a non sanctioned club in its league?

Sanction is a privilege, not a right

The CSA/CONCACAF doesn't have the power to "force" a move from MLS to CPL directly but it has the power to decree that due to article 73, Canadian based clubs may no longer participate in a US League. Key word is Canadian based. Nothing prevents MLSE, Saputo or Nash & co. from selling or relocating.

All of the above, all parties knew that this can happen. There's no case here

Edited by Ansem
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What if we just decide to call L1O, PLSQ & L1BC the new division 2? 

CanPL L1O PLSQ L1W
Cavalry Alliance United AS Blainville Kelowna
Dynamo QC Aurora FC CS Fabrose Calgary Foothills FC
FCE Darby FC CS Longueuil Edmonton 2
Forge Durham United FA CS Monteuil Fraser Valley
Pacific FC London CS Mont-Royal Outremont SSKFC
Valour Hamilton United CS St-Hubert Thunder Bay Chill
Wanderers Master's Futbol FC Lanaudière TSS FC Rovers
York 9 North Mississauga SC IMFC2
 

Victoria Highlanders

  North Toronto Nitros Gatineau FC VWFC2
  Oakville Blue Devils   WSA Winnipeg
  Ottawa South United Force    
  ProStars FC    
  Sigma FC    
  TFC2    
  Toronto Skillz FC    
  Unionville Milliken SC    
  Vaughan Azzurri    
  Windsor TFC    
  Woodbridge Strikers    
   

L1O is already part of the CSB and chances are the PLSQ will fall under it at some point. L1BC is slated to start up about 2021 but they don't have enough Tier 3 & 4 clubs to go it alone, but if you throw in the rest of the west you do. I would guess that 2021 will see the 8th team in the CPL (probably Quebec City), and then the CHL-esque League One Canada start up. So then you have five years (2021 to 2026) for the leagues to shake themselves out to the point where some of the League One clubs have hit Premier league standards (6000 seat stadium, etc) and we can start pro/rel.

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3 hours ago, Ansem said:

And argue what exactly? That they paid between $10M-$40M and it would be a crime to sell their franchise for like $400M+ to an other ownership? Nothing stops them from relocating either.

Other point, nothing stops them from fielding a team out of BMO Field, but not complying means no sanctioning. Would MLS play a non sanctioned club in its league?

Sanction is a privilege, not a right

The CSA/CONCACAF doesn't have the power to "force" a move from MLS to CPL directly but it has the power to decree that due to article 73, Canadian based clubs may no longer participate in a US League. Key word is Canadian based. Nothing prevents MLSE, Saputo or Nash & co. from selling or relocating.

All of the above, all parties knew that this can happen. There's no case here

Yes, I would say it's a crime to force a company to sell (regardless of profit) or force them to relocate in order to continue on as an entity. Yes, governments can do things like expropriate land but there's a financial cost to do so. And if the CSA attempted to revoke their sanctioning at this stage, I would 100% expect the lawyers for the 3 MLS clubs to be all over them. You can love the CPL, but it is not a comparable league to MLS the way USL vs CPL is.  And I'd be fascinated to see how that "rule" holds up in a court of law. My guess, just like Bosman back in the day and MLS's utter avoidance of really enforcing their "option" years (see: Camilo & Larin), it wouldn't hold up well.

Having said that, I don't think sanctioning is being withdrawn anyway, so it's a moot point.

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With Highlanders seemingly already joining Division 3 League 1 BC for 2021 and TSS Rovers likely as well, not sure this D2 is needed at this time. The D3 level is apparently a semi-pro setup and BC's version initially had higher standards that L1O and PLSQ.

With CPL targeting a D2 further down the road, another D2 setup doesn't seem to make sense. Finish the D3 league setup for the west and Atlantic and have the USL D4 teams left in Canada move to those leagues, it can still be a step up to pro from amatuer to sell to their fans and the Cdn MLS franchises can have their reserves there as well.

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To elaborate on my worry a bit more. Let’s say Saskatchewan (or wherever) goes to this D2 League to see if they can hack it. But in the D2 League presumably they would get somewhat lesser players, and maybe go in with a stadium not quite up to snuff, and wouldn’t have the easy availability to watch games that OneSoccer provides, and could be in a league with MLS reserve teams that for years people have said would be bad for the CPL (and I agree). Perhaps this half-assing means instead of drawing 6k fans per game, they draw only 3k fans per game and then they decide they can’t do it. Without the half measure League, maybe CPL has another team.

I am not saying this would for sure happen, or even that it’s definitely a bad thing for the league. Just that it seems to me there are potential pitfalls.

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27 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, I would say it's a crime to force a company to sell (regardless of profit) or force them to relocate in order to continue on as an entity. Yes, governments can do things like expropriate land but there's a financial cost to do so. And if the CSA attempted to revoke their sanctioning at this stage, I would 100% expect the lawyers for the 3 MLS clubs to be all over them. You can love the CPL, but it is not a comparable league to MLS the way USL vs CPL is.  And I'd be fascinated to see how that "rule" holds up in a court of law. My guess, just like Bosman back in the day and MLS's utter avoidance of really enforcing their "option" years (see: Camilo & Larin), it wouldn't hold up well.

Having said that, I don't think sanctioning is being withdrawn anyway, so it's a moot point.

For the record, I think FIFA ultimately wins this contest if sanctioning were withheld and both parties went to war.  
 

FIFA doesn’t actually force the move, as Ansem said.  They just withhold FIFA-related benefits from non-compliant organizations and leagues.  If MLS wanted to continue to allow our 3 clubs to play despite sanctioning being withheld, they could.  But they would be forfeiting the privileges that compliance confers.  FIFA could bar any MLS players from playing in the WC.  That is pretty huge.  No one would technically be forcing anyone to do anything - FIFA would just be using its substantial weight to keep member leagues in adherence with their laws   And since everyone knows these arrangements are predicated on FIFA’s blessing, and that the blessing is granted on an annual basis for a one year period, I imagine the footy mafia come out on top.  

When it comes to most sports, the US is the 800lb gorilla.  But for footy, they don’t hold a candle to FIFA.  

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12 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

For the record, I think FIFA ultimately wins this contest if sanctioning were withheld and both parties went to war.  
 

FIFA doesn’t actually force the move, as Ansem said.  They just withhold FIFA-related benefits from non-compliant organizations and leagues.  If MLS wanted to continue to allow our 3 clubs to play despite sanctioning being withheld, they could.  But they would be forfeiting the privileges that compliance confers.  FIFA could bar any MLS players from playing in the WC.  That is pretty huge.  No one would technically be forcing anyone to do anything - FIFA would just be using its substantial weight to keep member leagues in adherence with their laws   And since everyone knows these arrangements are predicated on FIFA’s blessing, and that the blessing is granted on an annual basis for a one year period, I imagine the footy mafia come out on top.  

When it comes to most sports, the US is the 800lb gorilla.  But for footy, they don’t hold a candle to FIFA.  

Maybe. I mean there's precedent with Welsh teams playing in the english leagues despite Wales having it's own league. And again, FIFA has not always won. I think ultimately it's something that never gets challenged. Either the teams decide to move out of MLS of their on volition or they stay in and it's never challenged by anyone, because I don't think (at this level) it's a can of worms anyone wants to open.

P.S. A *lot* of FIFA officials went down because they messed with the 800 lb gorilla after awarding the 2022 world cup to Qatar.  I don't think the US would go that far here, but I think they've proved not to mess with them. 

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33 minutes ago, Kent said:

P.S. We don’t have any indication that Vancouver or Montreal would want to revive their reserve teams. The tweet was just speculating it would be possible.

There's strong indications the Whitecaps are looking to be active in BCL1. The touring u-23 team they had this past year really didn't work out (in terms of developing the players) and depending on costs I can see them being interested in a div 2 team.

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1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

PS. A *lot* of FIFA officials went down because they messed with the 800 lb gorilla after awarding the 2022 world cup to Qatar.  I don't think the US would go that far here, but I think they've proved not to mess with them. 

I’m in violent agreement with both of you in that this is a moot discussion, and that the Cdn MLS teams will stay exactly where they are for a very long time. That said, it’s fun to speculate, and I’m going to side with dyslexic on this one. FIFA simply says, “we own the World Cup, it’s our private party, and it appears that players in your league don’t qualify”. There appears to be no ‘crime’ in that (like Qatar) but you know lawyers ...

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5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, I would say it's a crime to force a company to sell (regardless of profit) or force them to relocate in order to continue on as an entity.

They shouldn't have agreed to FIFA rules prior to receive the sanction. That's why there's no case.

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, governments can do things like expropriate land but there's a financial cost to do so. And if the CSA attempted to revoke their sanctioning at this stage, I would 100% expect the lawyers for the 3 MLS clubs to be all over them. You can love the CPL, but it is not a comparable league to MLS the way USL vs CPL is.  And I'd be fascinated to see how that "rule" holds up in a court of law. My guess, just like Bosman back in the day and MLS's utter avoidance of really enforcing their "option" years (see: Camilo & Larin), it wouldn't hold up well.

Having said that, I don't think sanctioning is being withdrawn anyway, so it's a moot point.

Courts historically dont like to set precedents in sporting matters. This is a case for the CAS and the fact that much more powerful clubs have tried to form a super league and failed makes it unlikely that TFC would fare much better than Manchester City or Real Madrid.

There's a reason why article 73 is being enforced when the exceptional clause no longer applies...they dont want to give the super clubs ammo to use a precedent to go rogue

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4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Maybe. I mean there's precedent with Welsh teams playing in the english leagues despite Wales having it's own league. And again, FIFA has not always won. I think ultimately it's something that never gets challenged. Either the teams decide to move out of MLS of their on volition or they stay in and it's never challenged by anyone, because I don't think (at this level) it's a can of worms anyone wants to open.

Welsh clubs are over a century old in the English system while our 3 MLS teams are as of today between 8 to 12 years old. Huge difference though 

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42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They shouldn't have agreed to FIFA rules prior to receive the sanction. That's why there's no case.

Courts historically dont like to set precedents in sporting matters. This is a case for the CAS and the fact that much more powerful clubs have tried to form a super league and failed makes it unlikely that TFC would fare much better than Manchester City or Real Madrid.

There's a reason why article 73 is being enforced when the exceptional clause no longer applies...they dont want to give the super clubs ammo to use a precedent to go rogue

More powerful clubs did form a super league.  It's called the Premiership, and it's only rival on a global scale is the NFL.  Highly recommend a book called The Club about it's formation.  And a European Super League is coming.  It hasn't failed, because the money has still been worth it to not form one yet.  But as mega clubs form (or get bought up), the owners are going to say "why are we sharing the wealth with these smaller clubs?"  And they'll break away and won't give a sh!t about FIFA or sanctioning, and they'll throw enough money at the players that they won't care either.

In conclusion, I think a I have concerns about the financial viability of a league 2 in Canada but view the way they seem to be setting it up as the way to go.

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