CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Could point out the obvious on York 9 and FCE in 2019 but really the whole MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part. I would have greatly preferred to see them working together and pushing in the same direction for the greater good of Canadian soccer so that all the best young Canadian prospects would be in the CSA sanctioned structure.

The problem is that people who clamber to the top of the greasy pole in corporate terms tend to always want everything their own way and are usually out to bludgeon the other party into submission. That means CanPL has to be marketed as a D1 with lots of jingoistic rhetoric and as nobody's development league even though everybody knows the real pecking order.

That's also why recognizing the players' union is proving to be a major stumbling block because concessions to uppity employees who expect to be treated as if they are actually playing in Canada's D1 rather than an obscure bush league would be viewed as a sign of weakness in corporate circles and you can't afford to appear weak because other people will try to take advantage after any hint of that etc etc

 

Did Clanachan steal your wife or something?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Could point out the obvious on York 9 and FCE in 2019 but really the whole MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part. I would have greatly preferred to see them working together and pushing in the same direction for the greater good of Canadian soccer so that all the best young Canadian prospects would be in the CSA sanctioned structure.

The problem is that people who clamber to the top of the greasy pole in corporate terms tend to always want everything their own way and are usually out to bludgeon the other party into submission. That means CanPL has to be marketed as a D1 with lots of jingoistic rhetoric and as nobody's development league even though everybody knows the real pecking order.

That's also why recognizing the players' union is proving to be a major stumbling block because concessions to uppity employees who expect to be treated as if they are actually playing in Canada's D1 rather than an obscure bush league would be viewed as a sign of weakness in corporate circles and you can't afford to appear weak because other people will try to take advantage after any hint of that etc etc

 

MLS took a long time to respond to basic salary demands, and demands for minimum contractual conditions for the players. Even 10 years ago things were still dire and MLS was seriously exposed.

But I'd say that even today there is no other league with such a high spread of salaries on a single pitch, DPs at 6 or 7 million beside journeymen making 60 or 70k. Playing beside someone making 100 times more than you? Doesn't that make MLS look weak as well?

To the point about CPL being a development league: it is not if the majority of the players five years from now, in their mid to late 20s, are long-time CPL veterans. Which I think will be the case, or close to it. Well over half the league will never move on to something better after having been "developed". But this is the same in Denmark, or in Croatia, or even Costa Rica. These leagues may be minor and discover they can send talent to higher leagues and garner decent transfer fees, but that does not make them development leagues. CPL is not a development league because, as I think we'll see, most of its players will turn out to not be developing, but having a modest and long-term pro career.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

MLS took a long time to respond to basic salary demands, ...

Maybe you missed that the MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part? Beyond the possible Canadian sanctioning angle I doubt the MLS-USL split will really help either party. A lower level of play with less of a win at all costs vibe to it probably won't be an upgrade on development for the former and the loss of the stability that up to 20 or so MLS related teams provided to enable USL to elbow aside the NASL at D2 is unlikely to help the latter. The comments I made about there being a problem with getting CEO types to work collaboratively in soccer based on mutually beneficial compromises are probably going to prove to be applicable in that context as well. If there is something positive to say about the current era it's that things have not reached Dale Barnes vs Rocco Lofranco levels yet.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

I will be shocked if this MLS reserve league lasts more than 5 years.

And again. CPL did the right thing by not including MLS reserve teams.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

28 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe you missed that the MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part? Beyond the possible Canadian sanctioning angle I doubt the MLS-USL split will really help either party. A lower level of play with less of a win at all costs vibe to it probably won't be an upgrade on development for the former and the loss of the stability that up to 20 or so MLS related teams provided to enable USL to elbow aside the NASL at D2 is unlikely to help the latter. The comments I made about there being a problem with getting CEO types to work collaboratively in soccer based on mutually beneficial compromises are probably going to prove to be applicable in that context as well. If there is something positive to say about the current era it's that things have not reached Dale Barnes vs Rocco Lofranco levels yet.

I hear what you say about the governance of the CPL, but I think you underestimate how overall rancid and backwards football management is, worldwide. The only thing that mitigates this is that fans love the sport, there is money in it, and that ends up covering up for all the retrograde ways it is managed in clubs and leagues the world over.

And back home, on a provincial level, we've seen decades of incompetence in some provincial associations that has aided and abetted similar at the CSA. Look at BC: these guys have the chance to improve the conditions of soccer in the province, and they are the most incompetent bunch of hacks imaginable, a huge and frankly "criminal" waste of such major potential. 

[Kent]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Could point out the obvious on York 9 and FCE in 2019 but really the whole MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part. I would have greatly preferred to see them working together and pushing in the same direction for the greater good of Canadian soccer so that all the best young Canadian prospects would be in the CSA sanctioned structure.

This was a response to UT saying "I think the main difference is that crowds for these teams' matches will be small". I'm not sure if that first sentence is supposed to imply that TFC II's average attendance in 2019 of 168 is supposed to be comparable to York 9's 2,668 or Edmonton's 2,905.

But anyways, it sounds like from the bold above that you want TFC, Vancouver, and Montreal to be playing in the CPL, and their reserve teams to be playing in L1O, League 1 BC, and PLSQ, and their youth teams to play in their provincial leagues. Am I right or am I missing some years long stance that doesn't quite match up as well with what you said as what I just suggested?

I would like to preemptively apologize to everyone for whatever happens next.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I hear what you say about the governance of the CPL, but I think you underestimate how overall rancid and backwards football management is, worldwide... 

Nobody does corruption quite like FIFA but the difference maybe is that the 99% are able to quickly stop something like the European superleague in its tracks while in the North American pro sports environment the whims of a few eccentric owners shape what happens to a greater extent. Corporate poodles like Alexi Lalas that were cheerleading the European superleague on twitter quickly found they weren't in Kansas any more with that one.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[longlugan]

On 7/24/2021 at 9:41 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Could point out the obvious on York 9 and FCE in 2019 but really the whole MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part. I would have greatly preferred to see them working together and pushing in the same direction for the greater good of Canadian soccer so that all the best young Canadian prospects would be in the CSA sanctioned structure.

The problem is that people who clamber to the top of the greasy pole in corporate terms tend to always want everything their own way and are usually out to bludgeon the other party into submission. That means CanPL has to be marketed as a D1 with lots of jingoistic rhetoric and as nobody's development league even though everybody knows the real pecking order.

That's also why recognizing the players' union is proving to be a major stumbling block because concessions to uppity employees who expect to be treated as if they are actually playing in Canada's D1 rather than an obscure bush league would be viewed as a sign of weakness in corporate circles and you can't afford to appear weak because other people will try to take advantage after any hint of that etc etc

 

Well at least now, if anyone else was in doubt, you've proven what an absolute piece of shit you are in relation to Canadian soccer. I can't speak to how you are outside of that but will hazard a guess that you're a fucktard there as well.

[Watchmen]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:38 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

To the point about CPL being a development league: it is not if the majority of the players five years from now, in their mid to late 20s, are long-time CPL veterans. Which I think will be the case, or close to it. Well over half the league will never move on to something better after having been "developed". But this is the same in Denmark, or in Croatia, or even Costa Rica. These leagues may be minor and discover they can send talent to higher leagues and garner decent transfer fees, but that does not make them development leagues. CPL is not a development league because, as I think we'll see, most of its players will turn out to not be developing, but having a modest and long-term pro career.

First, I agree with you that most of the players won't develop, and that's true all over the world.  This being the pinnacle of a players career shouldn't alarm anyone or be cause for concern.  Now, regarding "long-time CPL veterans", that's a trickier situation because of the low salaries.  I think once a number of players start to realize they aren't moving on in soccer they'll drop out of CPL and start to move on with their post-playing careers.  We've already seen it a few times.  So for financial reasons, I'm not convinced the CPL will produce modest or long-term pro careers.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

First, I agree with you that most of the players won't develop, and that's true all over the world.  This being the pinnacle of a players career shouldn't alarm anyone or be cause for concern.  Now, regarding "long-time CPL veterans", that's a trickier situation because of the low salaries.  I think once a number of players start to realize they aren't moving on in soccer they'll drop out of CPL and start to move on with their post-playing careers.  We've already seen it a few times.  So for financial reasons, I'm not convinced the CPL will produce modest or long-term pro careers.

Agreed if most 28 year olds in CPL are making 30 grand. If 5 years from now the league economy has them making over 40, could be different. 

My sense is that this lower level of pro keeps playing. I've worked with or met 4th and 5th tier players, who in Spain might have been making 1000 euros/month max, and they played to retirement because they loved it. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

As things stand at the moment there appear to be a very limited number of contracts for domestic players like Becker and Bustos on money that might make it worth hanging around in financial terms depending on what your job prospects are likely to be away from soccer. A shelf life of maybe three seasons before it's time to get a real job is probably going to be the norm if the cap stays where it is now and they continue to target many of the somewhat higher paying contracts at imports.

From a league standpoint they may well be happy to be sifting through a lot of younger players both domestic and imports (there's a reason for the U-23 focus) on relatively low salaries looking for the ones they can potentially sell on and won't necessarily want lots of players hanging around into their late 20s and early 30s who would expect more money and deflect playing time away from that process.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Agreed if most 28 year olds in CPL are making 30 grand. If 5 years from now the league economy has them making over 40, could be different. 

My sense is that this lower level of pro keeps playing. I've worked with or met 4th and 5th tier players, who in Spain might have been making 1000 euros/month max, and they played to retirement because they loved it. 

Sure, we'll have to see where the economy of the game goes.  But 28 and making 40k a year and having the rest of your life still to go (and a new career to start), I'm not sure how many will keep sticking around.

I'm not sure we can compare the lower levels of Europe to the CPL for this.  My understanding is that further down (4th/5th tier) is more part time, with games being a bit more regional.  It makes it easier to keep playing for the love (and not the money) when you're not having to travel cross-country constantly to play and can hold down that other job.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

As things stand at the moment there appear to be a very limited number of contracts for domestic players like Becker and Bustos on money that might make it worth hanging around in financial terms depending on what your job prospects are likely to be away from soccer. A shelf life of maybe three seasons before it's time to get a real job is probably going to be the norm if the cap stays where it is now and they continue to target many of the somewhat higher paying contracts at imports.

From a league standpoint they may well be happy to be sifting through a lot of younger players both domestic and imports (there's a reason for the U-23 focus) on relatively low salaries looking for the ones they can potentially sell on and won't necessarily want lots of players hanging around into their late 20s and early 30s who would expect more money and deflect playing time away from that process.

You are basically arguing that 50 leagues in the world have three-year turnovers, because they are on similar salaries. But that is not what happens at all. 50 leagues in he world have longterm veteran players on low salaries. 

The difference is that almost all those leagues have been around for decades, they've reached their relative threshold for domestic players, they get their odd boost from international club play, and they may get a decent sponsor every now or then. 

So give it time, because the CPL is just starting. If the curve moves as it has until now (base salaries higher in 2021 than the first two years), then most of what you are saying will be moot. But I would agree, I don't see the CPL getting to average salaries of over 60 grand in the near future.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are basically arguing that 50 leagues in the world have three-year turnovers, because they are on similar salaries. But that is not what happens at all. 50 leagues in he world have longterm veteran players on low salaries. 

The difference is that almost all those leagues have been around for decades, they've reached their relative threshold for domestic players, they get their odd boost from international club play, and they may get a decent sponsor every now or then. 

So give it time, because the CPL is just starting. If the curve moves as it has until now (base salaries higher in 2021 than the first two years), then most of what you are saying will be moot. But I would agree, I don't see the CPL getting to average salaries of over 60 grand in the near future.

I would argue we already see this happening.

Examples being guys like Di Chiara, Apparicio, Novak to name a few. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You are basically arguing that 50 leagues in the world have three-year turnovers, because they are on similar salaries...

Watchmen already explained above why there's no easy parallel with the Segunda B or Tercera divisions in Spain where the travel demands are more in tune with something like L1O or the OSL.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 7/26/2021 at 8:45 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Watchmen already explained above why there's no easy parallel with the Segunda B or Tercera divisions in Spain where the travel demands are more in tune with something like L1O or the OSL.

I'm talking about first divisions the world over. Top flights, at least 50 leagues with low salaries and journeymen playing for years, full pro careers at a low rung.

You argued players will leave because they can make money elsewhere, in a "real" job. But in dozens of leagues around the world players are proving you to be mistaken.

BTW, 2B was pro, minimum wage was just under 3000 euros a month, over 50K CDN. The highest paid player I ever heard of was making 200 thousand euros.

Tercera was amateur, there were younger guys making nothing. But both tiers were full of veterans who'd been at it all their lives.

Neither division will exist starting this upcoming season, regardless, they have redone Spain lower tiers.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

....You argued players will leave because they can make money elsewhere, in a "real" job. But in dozens of leagues around the world players are proving you to be mistaken....

 

How many of these dozens of leagues have a geography similar to having teams stretched over an area from Amsterdam to Tehran?

Lots of people combine playing reasonably high standard elite amateur soccer into their 30s with regular jobs and starting a family in cities from coast to coast but a strong pro soccer culture over relatively easy bus travel distances wasn't able to sustain itself on that sort of basis in Canada like it did elsewhere. Leagues like the NSL in the Toronto area were in terminal decline by the 1980s, for example.

Emulating gridiron, baseball, hockey and basketball by making the economics of pro soccer leagues spanning a continental sized area in North America work in a way that encourages people in their late teens and early 20s to commit wholeheartedly to it as a career choice has not been easy.

MLS is finally getting there and the CMNT has progressed considerably in recent years as a result of its academy systems. CanPL and USL still have a lot to prove so are still at the point where it's often more of a brief interlude to see if you are one of the few that can go further in the sport elsewhere.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

There’s a database of Canadian soccer players on this website that contains hundreds of career players making  CPL level salaries. 

[narduch]

27 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

There’s a database of Canadian soccer players on this website that contains hundreds of career players making  CPL level salaries. 

We literally already have guys who appear to be becoming CPL journeyman.

[Watchmen]

15 hours ago, Aird25 said:

There’s a database of Canadian soccer players on this website that contains hundreds of career players making  CPL level salaries. 

Playing in Canada or playing elsewhere? Cost of living, the ability to work a 2nd job, etc are all factors here. As it currently stands, I don't think we'll get many journeyman CPL players and nor should we be overly concerned with that.

[Watchmen]

15 hours ago, narduch said:

We literally already have guys who appear to be becoming CPL journeyman.

That would be speculative still at this stage. Conversely, we have literally already had guys drop out of the CPL for financial reasons. 

[narduch]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

That would be speculative still at this stage. Conversely, we have literally already had guys drop out of the CPL for financial reasons. 

A player like 27 year old Doner moving from York to HFX is a way more compelling argument than the handful of players that dropped out.

He isn't the only example.

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, narduch said:

A player like 27 year old Doner moving from York to HFX is a way more compelling argument than the handful of players that dropped out.

He isn't the only example.

We're 2(ish) seasons in to a new league. I'm sure it's exciting to be a part of. We've also seen that the playing conditions aren't ideal and we've discussed the low salaries. We'll see where the league goes. I don't doubt we'll get some journeyman. We'll also have a lot of players likely drop out once they realize they've hit their peak and the conditions/salaries just aren't worth it.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Not too far off what Pacific drew to their stadium in CanPL for the last couple of home games showed up in Vancouver for a low key friendly related to the would be D2 if the 600-800 bit is accurate:

Even allowing for the free admission angle maybe Swangard was the answer all along for what to do in the lower mainland BC market. And it looks like FC Tigers being involved rather than BC Tigers actually makes no difference on the ethnic club angle from a few pages back:

 

Apparently both FC Tigers and Whitecaps U19s are now in the Fraser Valley Soccer League for the winter season in a BC context:

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[ted]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not too far off what Pacific drew to their stadium in CanPL for the last couple of home games showed up in Vancouver for a low key friendly related to the would be D2 if the 600-800 bit is accurate:

What partisan bullshit. Pacific had an official attendance of 2,259 which is (if you have basic math skills) app triple the number you are claiming is, "not too far off". This from a metropolitan population (CRD) less than Surrey. 

So to recap: you are liar drawing false conclusions. 

I try to tolerate your criticism but if you are going to blatantly lie then I think you should join Robert on the banned list.

I await your apology.