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CPL Division II - Pro/Rel discussion


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Has to be consideration for challenging financial times too.

Ideally for me at least, fill in the pyramid with a Prairie L1 and the other holes so there are league ones across the board. Then in a year or two those clubs wanting to push higher can so league II. There is no need to rush this. Grow with the clubs rather than trying to go top down.

I know there are likely a few clubs that want to push higher than div 2 but there has to be a system to support growth of a div 2. Just stripping d3 of a bunch of clubs doesnt make sense to me right now, unless there are a bunch of new clubs ready to replace them.

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32 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

It is likely also being designated a Div II to help attract more investors with capital to set up the league. I doubt these teams are a step above Oakville Blue Devils or Vaughan Azzurri in quality on the field any time soon.

That's been my impression as well. I get that it's important to drum up interest an whatnot, but I'd much rather see it presented as a polished product with investors lined up rather than a publicity campaign to try to convince people that they should spend money on this. 

Also, for what it's worth, I don't much like the idea of this being a separate operation from the CPL. The Canadian soccer landscape is fragmented enough as it is. I'd much rather see either the CPL create a Div II in 5-10 years, or see the Div III leagues come together to split their teams between Div III and Div II in a pro/rel system down the road. 

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2 hours ago, Ruffian said:

It is likely also being designated a Div II to help attract more investors with capital to set up the league. I doubt these teams are a step above Oakville Blue Devils or Vaughan Azzurri in quality on the field any time soon.

Do you know for a fact that it wouldn't be the Blue Devils and Azzurri participating in this?

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3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Is there a D4 under CSA sanctioning? Think that's only a USSF thing. Don't think the Calgary Foothills can sensibly be termed "amateur hour" after winning USL League Two in 2018 and arguably forming the basis of Cavalry FC in the process.

The USSF doesn't have a D4 either, only 1,2,3. Everyone calls USL League Two as D4, but it's technically not ranked as that, totally unofficial. 

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Interesting to see how L1O has split into University (with two TFC teams in Toronto and a Whitecaps aligned team in London on board) and a conventional longer season Men's format (TFC aligned teams in London and Windsor):

https://league1.e2esoccer.com/Games_Schedules.aspx

There are two different types of season to be catered to, so one size doesn't fit all at D2/D3 level. Sigma are aligned with the Forge through the Smyrniotis family in the longer season Men's format, but not sure whether York United have anything up and running that way yet? PLSQ makes more sense geographically for Ottawa obviously.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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4 hours ago, red card said:

I wondered when this would happen with USL. 

 

Whatever they come up with it won't be real pro-rel, USL's a franchise league that will protect itself and $ above all else. Good marketing though, will  get them some positive pr for those who buy into the fake pro-rel talk of USL.

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1 hour ago, CDNFootballer said:

Whatever they come up with it won't be real pro-rel, USL's a franchise league that will protect itself and $ above all else. Good marketing though, will  get them some positive pr for those who buy into the fake pro-rel talk of USL.

I didn't read the article but are there league sponsorships or big money TV deals that the top division draws money from that the lower divisions don't? If not, then there probably isn't a big money loss from going down a division. Are FC Tulsa fans really going to lose interest if they play in USL League One rather than USL Championship? I legitimately don't know if there are big draw rivalries that a team would miss out on if they or their opponent got promoted/relegated out of their current league, but I somehow doubt it would be a huge factor.

I think the barriers likely aren't really there for USL, and the only barriers for CPL is just the lack of numbers of teams.

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2 hours ago, Kent said:

I didn't read the article but are there league sponsorships or big money TV deals that the top division draws money from that the lower divisions don't? If not, then there probably isn't a big money loss from going down a division. Are FC Tulsa fans really going to lose interest if they play in USL League One rather than USL Championship? I legitimately don't know if there are big draw rivalries that a team would miss out on if they or their opponent got promoted/relegated out of their current league, but I somehow doubt it would be a huge factor.

I think the barriers likely aren't really there for USL, and the only barriers for CPL is just the lack of numbers of teams.

I think generally the difference was that League One tended to be a lot more east coast based/regional.  So the difference came down more to how much ownership wanted to spend on travel (and I'm sure salaries, to a certain extent). 

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17 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Whatever they come up with it won't be real pro-rel, USL's a franchise league that will protect itself and $ above all else. Good marketing though, will  get them some positive pr for those who buy into the fake pro-rel talk of USL.

I actually think it would produce more revenue because it would make the league more appealing. But yah I could see a playoff or maybe 2 teams out of the thirty. Something like that. But is could create some pretty cool stories.. it looks like they have 100 or so teams in the pyramid 

Edited by SpursFlu
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The other angle to what's happening is that USL are jettisoning the link to MLS basically, or vice versa and probably really a bit of both, as even the other four will have to make the move by 2023 apparently and are basically just seeing out the last year of their franchise agreements:

That appears to be the first confirmation that TFC II are going into the new MLS development league next year and will be leaving USL D1. The next snippet to be confirmed is that there are no sanctioning issues with the Whitecaps and Impact having U-23 teams in an MLS run league as well and that it will get treated as part and parcel of their MLS sanctioning by the CSA.

If that's what unfolds, there are going to be implications for CanPL on the size of the domestic player pool that is capable of a decent standard of pro level soccer that will be left for them in the age cohort most likely to be willing to work for less than minimum wage. Time they sorted out their labour relations basically.

 

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The other angle to what's happening is that USL are jettisoning the link to MLS basically, or vice versa and probably really a bit of both, as even the other four will have to make the move by 2023 apparently and are basically just seeing out the last year of their franchise agreements:

That appears to be the first confirmation that TFC II are going into the new MLS development league next year and will be leaving USL D1. The next snippet to be confirmed is that there are no sanctioning issues with the Whitecaps and Impact having U-23 teams in an MLS run league as well and that it will get treated as part and parcel of their MLS sanctioning by the CSA.

If that's what unfolds, there are going to be implications for CanPL on the size of the domestic player pool that is capable of a decent standard of pro level soccer that will be left for them in the age cohort most likely to be willing to work for less than minimum wage. Time they sorted out their labour relations basically.

I think the main difference is that crowds for these teams' matches will be small, it will be a development system, not a source of entertainment. I used to go see Caps in USL and there were usually under a thousand in the stands at Thunderbird at UBC. It was good entertainment for fans like me, and the few nutty Southsiders especially when the Caps were on a road trip. But there of course was no continuity with the team or players, and atmosphere was nowhere near what a CPL game is.

Crowds could be smaller where a more solid league option is close by, thinking of TFCII and York United. For Vancouver or Montreal, perhaps these teams could get a bit more support.

As for stretching the player pool. You are right, partially. But it is not mathematical. 

How many CPL-profile players will end up on one of these teams? And the other question that is important: realistically, how many players currently not playing pro in Canada, out of U-Sports, in League Ones or equivalent, have the talent to be playing in CPL but just have not had the chance? Would you say 10, 20, 30? How much talent can the system absorb without it thinning out the quality?

Next, no question a few good loans from MLS teams like Montreal may not make their way to CPL. They'll be sent into the Development League. So CPL would lose a Sirois type of player, for example.

We also have to see what the Canadian commitment will be for the MLS teams. In the past there were mostly Canadians but also foreigners, and often odd pick-ups from literally all over the world. But say it's 15 per team, 45 in total. Not all of those are being lost as potential CPL players because most of TFCs will come from their current TFCII. And some will be dropped down from the MLS teams out of their main roster. 

Then there is the question of salaries. I am not sure this new league will have a better salary structure than CPL, but it would not be hard to match the lower range. A better player may decide to wait out the MLS option, or may opt to go fully pro, play in front of fans and get quality playing time in CPL. So you are right that the lower CPL salaries mean a potentially important incentive to go CPL over MLS Development is not there.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Kent said:

I didn't read the article but are there league sponsorships or big money TV deals that the top division draws money from that the lower divisions don't? If not, then there probably isn't a big money loss from going down a division. Are FC Tulsa fans really going to lose interest if they play in USL League One rather than USL Championship? I legitimately don't know if there are big draw rivalries that a team would miss out on if they or their opponent got promoted/relegated out of their current league, but I somehow doubt it would be a huge factor.

I think the barriers likely aren't really there for USL, and the only barriers for CPL is just the lack of numbers of teams.

Depends on the market as to if fans will lose interest with a drop to D3 but overall most would lose fans in a drop.

Teams paying 8-10 million for a franchise in USL C D2 won't want to drop to USL D3 where franchises pay 1 million.

Any TV deal money is likely minimal for USL D2. Wages were about 500k for USL D2 and 200k for USL D3 for most teams according to reports/articles pre covid.

Other barriers for USL is the Professional League Standards from USSF they have to deal with so a franchise if promoted would not meet them in most if not all cases. These standards and USL itself will prevent real pro-rel for the franchise league.

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16 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think the main difference is that crowds for these teams' matches will be small, ...

Could point out the obvious on York 9 and FCE in 2019 but really the whole MLS vs CanPL thing leaves me cold for the most part. I would have greatly preferred to see them working together and pushing in the same direction for the greater good of Canadian soccer so that all the best young Canadian prospects would be in the CSA sanctioned structure.

The problem is that people who clamber to the top of the greasy pole in corporate terms tend to always want everything their own way and are usually out to bludgeon the other party into submission. That means CanPL has to be marketed as a D1 with lots of jingoistic rhetoric and as nobody's development league even though everybody knows the real pecking order.

That's also why recognizing the players' union is proving to be a major stumbling block because concessions to uppity employees who expect to be treated as if they are actually playing in Canada's D1 rather than an obscure bush league would be viewed as a sign of weakness in corporate circles and you can't afford to appear weak because other people will try to take advantage after any hint of that etc etc

 

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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