CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

[MM3/MM2/MM]

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

That is my gut feeling. It is a springboard league for clubs to prepare them to move into CPL. It however also gives the CSA a pathway to implement Pro/Rel further down the line if they want to. 

I could see a possible modified Pro/Rel , not automatic, the last place Tier 1 team plays a aller/retour with the top Tier 2 team with the winner getting the Tier one position.

[Blackjack15]

Duane Rollins was on a podcast with Peter Galindo and Thomas Nef to talk about the 2nd Division:

‎Northern Fútbol Podcast: Episode 2 – Voyageurs Cup debacle and a new second division? on Apple Podcasts

[toontownman]

Cynical Challenge talked about it on their new Podcast too. Haven't listened to either yet, will be interesting to see how they line up. Not least with Jeff Paulus having a more direct inside track than Rollins, albeit likely more restrictions to talk about it!

 

[Kent]

I would love to have pro/rel. It is a slight net benefit to the top tier, but it's a much bigger benefit to the 2nd tier and therefor to the health of the game/pyramid. If we have the potential to sustain a 2nd tier, it will be stronger and more likely to succeed if we have pro/rel. 

[T_Bison]

I think it will happen for a few reasons:

1) CSA wants to build up soccer in this country, and having working pro/rel between D1, D2 & D3 accomplishes this.

2) Obviously the Valours & Forges of the league want to fill their giant stadiums, but if Thunder Bay (for example) is drawing 5-6K fans per game and is the best team in D2, and FCE is only drawing 3K & are terrible, then how can you argue it's better for FCE to stay in D1?

3) From the outset pro/rel has been a goal and all those teams bought in. How can they then say no?

[Kent]

4 hours ago, T_Bison said:

2) Obviously the Valours & Forges of the league want to fill their giant stadiums, but if Thunder Bay (for example) is drawing 5-6K fans per game and is the best team in D2, and FCE is only drawing 3K & are terrible, then how can you argue it's better for FCE to stay in D1?

Someone mentioned before how fans would take getting relegated. I've mentioned this before (not sure if it was this thread) but I was a season ticket holder for TFC almost exclusively in their worst years. While in the stands for yet another hopeless loss, I found myself thinking the only way there would be hope for next season was if there was relegation. Then we would at least have a shot at getting a few wins and having a more fun time out at the stadium. Not everyone would feel that way, but I definitely did. And I'm not nearly as rabid for pro/rel as a lot of people, even less so back then as it related to MLS.

[Mikmacdo]

Sorry folks but relegation isnt coming. No one is paying 10 million dollars and getting sent to this D2 league that is basically semi pro. 

[toontownman]

21 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Sorry folks but relegation isnt coming. No one is paying 10 million dollars and getting sent to this D2 league that is basically semi pro. 

It's clearly not coming anytime soon, I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. 

If/when it happens, D2 will be, by then fully professional, fleshed out and sustainable, or so Rollins says. If everything moves to plan by that point the D2 will be more like CPL 1.0 and D3 will have moved up a step and maybe the pyramid has another layer to it at the bottom. We are talking 5-10 years but more likely 10-15. Then another period until a d3 maybe joins. Quite possibly that is never necessary though.

All the clubs will live and die by the community support they have built and their supporters/groups fanbase imo. If they get that right going down won't be the be all end all. 

With franchise owners complaining about any future switch, If someone has invested 10m and didnt do due diligence enough to know Pro/rel was a long term goal of the league and soccer development in Canada then they probably shouldnt be there to begin with.

 

[Initial B]

After listening to both podcasts, it sounds like the Canadian Pyramid will be siloed for the foreseeable future. CanPL will be the National Level of play, with the 2nd Div playing out of the prairies, and the regional 3rd divisions comprising of BCRT3, L1O, and PLSQ. I don't see pro-rel happening any time soon, but I could see lower division teams that are ambitious playing whatever fees to join the league above whenever they feel ready, and hopefully they'll be welcomed.  

[TFC2017]

I don't think there will ever be Pro/Rel the more I think about it and honestly that's more than okay with me. 

[yothat2]

First goal should be a healthy second division before pro/relegation. Should get the canadian second division get it's own thread?! We know some of the teams already 

[toontownman]

2 hours ago, yothat2 said:

First goal should be a healthy second division before pro/relegation. Should get the canadian second division get it's own thread?! We know some of the teams already 

If you build it. We will come.

[Cblake]

Does the CSA at this point even have a D2 standard in place? Similar to where the USSF has one for D1 (MLS), D2 (USL-C) and D3 (USL1 and NISA). Leagues under that lose fall under the USASA banner for the most part.

I wonder if as discussed D2 is an independent thing separate from CSA, in addition the the prairies as being discussed right now could we also see one pop up in Southern Ontario, lots of potential to doing something along the 401. Say Windsor, London, KW, Mississauga, Barrie, Durham, Kingston, etc. Some of those have been mentioned as CPL targets at one point or another but I believe they are 6-8 places you could go under the right circumstances with D2. 

[brianjc]

Why Canada Isn't Ready For a Rumored Second Division - Urban Pitch

 

[T_Bison]

I think the D2 talk was probably premature, although having a BC D3 and a prairie D3 going for next year would be glorious. Get those teams in a solid league and then start building from there.

[Watchmen]

I think D2 was being driven by Belan, and with the CPL dropping am expansion team in to Saskatoon the D2 talk will die back down.

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think D2 was being driven by Belan, and with the CPL dropping am expansion team in to Saskatoon the D2 talk will die back down.

What will it take for CSA to consolidate into one pyramid? I don’t understand why we’ve operated with so many independent leagues for so long 

[Watchmen]

52 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

What will it take for CSA to consolidate into one pyramid? I don’t understand why we’ve operated with so many independent leagues for so long 

MLS will never consolidate in.  The CPL owns the Div 3 leagues.  The CSA has blocked further USL teams, and a number of them out west seem to be working on forming a Div 3 league that would presumably also fold in to the pyramid.  Outside of this Div 2 league that hasn't moved forward, there's really not a lot more the CSA can do.

[T_Bison]

14 hours ago, Watchmen said:

MLS will never consolidate in.  The CPL owns the Div 3 leagues.  The CSA has blocked further USL teams, and a number of them out west seem to be working on forming a Div 3 league that would presumably also fold in to the pyramid.  Outside of this Div 2 league that hasn't moved forward, there's really not a lot more the CSA can do.

I believe the CPL only owns the L1O, not the PLSQ. Not sure about L1BC though.

[Cblake]

Some sort of fly by night hastily put together D2 league could only do harm to the sport in this country. I do not think its anything that would have a long term affect on the CPL but it still would not be a good look. It would likely resemble some the low tier attempts we have seen in the US. I just do not see a need for a level between the CPL and provincial D3 leagues. I could see some successful D3 teams with the right ownership, bringing 2-3K fans a night. Remember the Brantford Galaxy of the CSL, they were getting some pretty good crowds at one point, especially at that level. 

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, T_Bison said:

I believe the CPL only owns the L1O, not the PLSQ. Not sure about L1BC though.

Don't they? I thought they owned PLSQ as well. Regardless, we all know where that league and a L1BC would be on the pyramid.

[Kent]

14 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Don't they? I thought they owned PLSQ as well. Regardless, we all know where that league and a L1BC would be on the pyramid.

So far they only own L1O, last I heard. There was talk of interest of buying PLSQ as well, but I don't think there is a rush. Maybe once fans are allowed back to games, if things go well enough, and maybe after we get at least 1 CPL team in the province of Quebec there will be more urgency to get PLSQ under their watch. That is just speculation on my part though.

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

So far they only own L1O, last I heard. There was talk of interest of buying PLSQ as well, but I don't think there is a rush. Maybe once fans are allowed back to games, if things go well enough, and maybe after we get at least 1 CPL team in the province of Quebec there will be more urgency to get PLSQ under their watch. That is just speculation on my part though.

I'm less concerned with who owns these leagues than with the CSA establishing and enforcing a base level on what Div 3 is. I've heard, for instance, that a few of the local BC leagues (or at least teams within the leagues) were jockeying to be labeled the BC Div 3 league without actually meeting the requirements. Obviously didn't happen, and good for the CSA. You want to be in a Div 3 league? Raise your standards, don't expect the CSA to lower them to yours.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Watchmen

[Cblake]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm less concerned with who owns these leagues than with the CSA establishing and enforcing a base level on what Div 3 is. I've heard, for instance, that a few of the local BC leagues (or at least teams within the leagues) were jockeying to be labeled the BC Div 3 league without actually meeting the requirements. Obviously didn't happen, and good for the CSA. You want to be in a Div 3 league? Raise your standards, don't expect the CSA to lower them to yours.

Does the CSA establish the D3 regulations or the provincial associations? D3 at this point is a provincial thing and I am not even sure the standards for D2 exist at this point. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Cblake

[Watchmen]

3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Does the CSA establish the D3 regulations or the provincial associations? D3 at this point is a provincial thing and I am not even sure the standards for D2 exist at this point. 

I think it was up to the provinces to help establish the league, but it would be up to the CSA actually grant the Div 3 status.  That was part of the problem the first time around in BC - the provincial association put out the call and not enough teams answered, at least in part because it sounds like they didn't really think they needed to.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Watchmen