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CPL Division II - Pro/Rel discussion


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54 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

They league also said they'd start with at least 8 teams, that the salary cap would be in the millions, and that players would be paid $50k a year minimum. None of that happened. 

Wasn't it 6 teams originally?

Lots of speculation on salaries and things that were reported but the league remained vague on salaries even today

54 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

They also knew that a lot of soccer fans in this country would get reallllly excited about pro/rel. So it's also possible they told those fans, the ones they needed on board from the start, something they wanted to hear.

So you're accusing Paul Beirne, the CSA, CSB, investors and Clanachan of purposely misleading and deceiving everyone? Am I understanding this correctly?

54 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

It's just that when investors are suddenly faced with the devaluation of their asset (and dropping down to D2 would be that), maybe they're not quite so keen to vote for that model.

Why haven't the number of prospective investors vanished? Why did Madrid bother to join? Why is Bundesliga linked to the league? Surely they understand what you're saying and yet, they still joined. Why is a Quebec City club still happening?

 

54 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm just not convinced that they'll go through with pro/rel. 

If the league stagnates and encounter big difficulties than they shouldn't go through with it. They obviously are planning for it as part of their long term goals they set for themselves and if it goes south, they should scratch that.

However, I wouldn't go as far as implying that they are lying on purpose just to get a few hardcore excited - that's just not reality nor how serious partners such as Madrid would ever want to be part off

Edited by Ansem
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So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East. Scottish and F

Watchman, you know this is a cult right? It's oddly leaderless and decentralized but Zealots only allowed here. Stop with your Epistemological arguments. Does Okanagan FC exists? Are we a brain in a v

I find this thread is beyond over zealous... CPL D2, Promotion/Relegation...... Can we get to 10 teams first? 

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59 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Wasn't it 6 teams originally?

Lots of speculation on salaries and things that were reported but the league remained vague on salaries even 

They said they'd be willing to start with 6 if necessary, but repeatedly said they'd be starting with 8 to 10 teams.  And you can say the league is vague on salaries but we know the average is down about 25k, not 50k minimum. 

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

So you're accusing Paul Beirne, the CSA, CSB, investors and Clanachan of purposely misleading and deceiving everyone? Am I understanding this correctly?

I'm saying it's very, very low on their priority list while some hard core fans make it a top priority. Make of that what you will.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Why haven't the number of prospective investors vanished? Why did Madrid bother to join? Why is Bundesliga linked to the league? Surely they understand what you're saying and yet, they still joined. Why is a Quebec City club still happening?

Investors have the opportunity to join what might be a closed circuit league, and you think that's a negative to them? As opposed to buying in to a league that has relegation, watching the club potentially go down, and having the asset devalued?

My point is that I don't think they are "planning for it" as seriously as you do, and when it comes time for the investors to make a decision I would not at all be shocked if they chose the "no relegation" option.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Unlike @WatchmenI do think it demonstrates that there are precedents, perhaps small stadiums, players, and the will to go for it in those markets. Perhaps not a lot of market, in the sense of gate revenue, but enough to cover your semi-pro costs.

I think you could also add Whitecaps u-23, regardless of whether they'd see fit to join a D2, they were at this level in the past. 

 

 

I mean, I think that would start to get in to what your expectations are gate-revenue, attendance, stadium size, etc.  But having seen the attendance at some PDL games, I'd rather that worked towards stronger semi-pro Ligue 1 leagues rather than a diluted D2.

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Watchman, you know this is a cult right? It's oddly leaderless and decentralized but Zealots only allowed here. Stop with your Epistemological arguments. Does Okanagan FC exists? Are we a brain in a vat. Fuck man, we just want to dream of D2, the death of the PDL, and the ultimate abolition of the MLS in Canada. We're fucking tired of being Wales and if we can't be Belgium we'll settle for Scotland.

Who's with me?

mel gibson braveheart GIF

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My vision


Without Pro/Rel:

D1

16 teams in D1 with diverse markets

 

30 games

 

image.png.948669397cfa142b99005d833d3b406a.png

 

D2

Mostly U-23 players

D1 and MLS clubs have their reserve squad

USL League 2 clubs play in Canada

3 divisions of 10 clubs

image.png.f8569e01bfb67d49c0bf7500ad22e324.png

 

D3

Only provincial division

Only drivable distance for a day-trip

image.png.4f4ffba74126fb8bef118e78b2e4723d.png

 

 

With Pro/Rel (between D1 and D2):
 

D1 

12 clubs

22 games + play-off, knock-out with D2 or League Cup

image.png.97c42ebfb2d6f1d8cd8080aecb5c48b6.png

 

D2

Pro clubs (players from D1 can be loaned)

Reserve teams of MLS clubs (can't be promoted to D1)

Less restrictions regarding budget and stadium

Stronger restrictions regarding Canadian and youth players

if there's an even number of clubs in a Conference, a club from D3 can be promoted

image.png.8123567ec7c49d9c27d0cf6e3f477e8b.png

 

D3

Only provincial division

Only drivable distance for a day-trip

Some clubs from D1 (or D2) may have their reserve teams in their provincial league

image.png.43f592bcca0aed1df93d6289f0000e62.png

Your idea?

If you wanna know more about my vision of D2:
https://culturesoccer.com/2020/04/11/d-cameron-pourquoi-le-canada-doit-avoir-une-division-2/

Edited by mtlsab
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People are talking about a relegated team being devalued. For the sake of argument, what exactly is causing their value to decrease? If we were able to snap our fingers today and all of a sudden we have 2 levels with pro/rel in Canada, what would cause the lower level teams to have less value? The CSB/CPL could make any TV/streaming deals an even split across the whole pyramid. Are Forge fans going to stop watching Forge if they are in D2 instead of D1? My guess is that a losing team will lose fans, and a winning team will gain fans. There isn't yet any prestige among any clubs in CPL (Forge is working on it though, credit to them). It's not like if the Blue Jays got relegated and all of a sudden they aren't playing games against the Yankees and Red Sox anymore. Visiting teams aren't a draw in the CPL, there isn't any history yet (maybe there will be enough by the time a D2 would potentially exist?), and it's not like your teams highlights would be dropped from Sportscentre (since CPL highlights already aren't shown there). Even in MLS they have a hard time getting people to watch games on TV that don't involve their own team, so would you really lose many viewers of a D2 over D1 in Canada?

In addition to that you would still have your theoretical shot at D1 CPL teams and potentially MLS teams via the Voyageurs Cup if you are relegated. As long as they make it so there isn't a huge disparity in league sponsorship and media rights money, I don't know that the difference would be as big as people are used to it being. To get back on my point earlier about winning/losing being a likely bigger factor, you might run into situations where a CPL team has a couple bad seasons and their attendances drop. Then they get relegated and with the lower competition in CDL (I am still pushing D for Deuxieme) they start winning more the next year or years and their attendances rise again.

None of this is to say it absolutely can work. None of us know for certain if it could or couldn't. Just some thoughts on it maybe not being as punitive as people are used to with other more established leagues.

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If all div 2 matches were on onesoccer at least I agree with @Kent it wouldnt be the worst.

The perception factor of being in the top league certainly draws but the excitement of potential promotion and drama or relegation would keep things fresh. Coupled that with the fact there would still be the V cup. Hypothetically a CPL division 2 team could still qualify for the champions league. 

For any time wanting to join the league/league system you have to believe they are joining so because there is a market base and potential appetite for professional football. It's not 3 leagues lower with no hope of getting promoted. It could work but there would need to be at least 20 teams coast to coast imo. 

Edit: also seeing how successful the island games where, it brings back to mind the rumored d2 format Joe Belan was essentially setting up with the SKSSS. A few teams that could run a tournament potentially home and away and build a fanbase. This could certainly work to build teams up until they are ready to make the jump to CPL and likewise until the league is big enough to support promotion/relegation. Nothing will be perfect transition wise either way!

Edited by toontownman
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To answer @Kent there are other factors, but I am half agreeing with you.

You have to consider that a D2 would likely have a lower minimum salary, and that your revenue loss, even if mitigated by some revenue-sharing deal for tv or sponsors, would mean you'd have to get rid of more expensive players (or ask them to renegotiate). On the other hand, you may draw in players who think that signing in D2 with promotion as a possibility could be a path to D1 play, and might accept the worse conditions for that reason alone. It works both ways.

As our minimum wage now is low, that would put D2 into a semi-pro or low pro level. Sure, you could offer financial guarantees so they can operate as low-level pro, but then what you are doing is eliminating part of the motivation to not relegate. It is like being demoted at work for poor performance: if you are still paid the same you might not care, you just go into Bullsh*t Job mode.

I do agree, however, that if you go this way, you would do better by providing revenue sharing and guarantees, so that both divisions are part of an unified entity in terms of income streams, leaving gate aside. And that would make the gap between division less gaping. It could be done, though as we know in any tiered system in the world there is a major breach between top flight and the next one down

The factor of pro-releg is of course psychological. If your team drops and stays down, unable to promote over a longer period, that is going to hurt your project. Fans of a relegated Forge or Pacific might never accept the drop, or it might take time, because of the memory of being in D1. On the other hand, a modest team has the possibility of promoting and creating enthusiasm in their community, and that energy reverberates through the entire league (as happens all over the world). 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/26/2021 at 9:30 AM, Ansem said:

Haiti has pro/rel - what am I missing?

You are missing that Haiti is smaller than Vancouver Island. Travel between any two clubs is possible in a day by bus.

You are missing that all club expenses are significantly cheaper in Haiti.

We can barely sustain the CanPL as it is, the survival of the league is still a question mark. IMO the costs associated with adding a second division are not even worth detailed analysis until the CanPL has survived for at least five years from launch with at least stability, if not steady growth.

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1 minute ago, ted said:

You are missing that Haiti is smaller than Vancouver Island. Travel between any two clubs is possible in a day by bus.

You are missing that all club expenses are significantly cheaper in Haiti.

We can barely sustain the CanPL as it is, the survival of the league is still a question mark. IMO the costs associated with adding a second division are not even worth detailed analysis until the CanPL has survived for at least five years from launch with at least stability, if not steady growth.

The world's 10th economy can't figure this out when others have? 

Count me as skeptical 

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31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The world's 10th economy can't figure this out when others have? 

Count me as skeptical 

Well it took what 30 years for the world’s 10th economy to figure out how to sustain a national pro soccer league again so ya let’s get this league on solid ground before venturing into a second division. Let’s try to grow and establish League 1 Ontario type leagues across Canada and then go from there. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been away for a while, but still giving thought about how a CPL2 would run. Maybe we're looking at it the wrong way - what is the purpose of Pro-Rel? In my mind, it's to give a chance for ambitious lower-tier clubs a vehicle to realize their ambitions while providing a safe landing space for struggling top-tier clubs to regroup and stabilize themselves before making another run to the top.

Financially, some of the biggest expenses in Canada compared to other leagues is the travel costs and accommodations required due to the long distances between clubs. In my mind, there are three levels of travel that each have a significant jump in costs.

The lowest level of travel is local (example - Ottawa Carleton Soccer League): Away game locations are no more than 2 hours away and no accommodations are required. Clubs should get used to travelling by bus as a team to build that expense into their operating budget. This is the level where clubs get their feet wet and can decide if they want to take the next step up. Pro-Rel is not formally codified at this level, you pay fees to move up or down the next level. Clubs should look at means of revenue such as sponsorships and gate receipts. The problem is, there is hardly any recognition at the local level that the talent is worth paying to watch or sponsor except as a tax write-off, so it's a struggle to make the next step until you've built up enough local awareness that you actually have paying fans attending games.

The next level of travel is regional (example - League1 Ontario): Away game locations may be up to 8-12 hours away (meaning more expensive bus travel) and require overnight accommodations. This will require another jump in the operational budget of clubs and they should get used to the costs at this level of play before aspiring to move further up the ladder. At this level, you *must* have sponsorship and stadium gate receipts in order to pay players and other operational costs.

The highest level of travel is National (example - Canadian Premiere League): Away game locations will require air travel, which is another magnitude of cost above that of bus travel. Accommodation standards will also be higher due to the expectations of the higher calibre of player at this level. At this level TV contracts need to be added to the revenue stream to offset the plane tickets. Where a National level club is geographically located also has an impact on the travel costs (York9 has cheaper costs than Pacific) so this has to be taken into account by investors as well.

So how to create a level financial playing field? I would suggest that the league will need to pay for the travel of all clubs (leaving clubs the accommodations portion), with any leftover money split between the clubs for their own use. A team relegated to a regional league can offset the financial blow by choosing cheaper hotels for their players in order to use the saved funds to charter buses. 

Are there any other means to soften the blow for relegated clubs so it doesn't mean their immediate destruction?

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  • 2 weeks later...

So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East.

Scottish and Foothills are among the teams playing, but interesting to note is that this new league will also have a women's division as well with 6 teams in the West and 6 teams in the East. Sounds like the Scottish Angels and the Foothills UWS teams will be participating in this league as well.

Scottish apparently plans on building a "microstadium" as well to support this project with shovels in the ground later this year, confirming what Paulus said on his podcast - this Div 2 talk must be what he keeps alluding to. If so, good news for the Canadian soccer pyramid and women's soccer?

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1 hour ago, CPLinsider said:

So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East.

Scottish and Foothills are among the teams playing, but interesting to note is that this new league will also have a women's division as well with 6 teams in the West and 6 teams in the East. Sounds like the Scottish Angels and the Foothills UWS teams will be participating in this league as well.

Scottish apparently plans on building a "microstadium" as well to support this project with shovels in the ground later this year, confirming what Paulus said on his podcast - this Div 2 talk must be what he keeps alluding to. If so, good news for the Canadian soccer pyramid and women's soccer?

Any word if this will be owned and operated by CSB like league 1 Ontario, or is it a new group outside of the D1 CPL and D3 L1 Ontario sphere?

There was the previous talk of a "D2" which was not really a league but more of a tournament.

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The SKSSS was rumored to have been a potential tester summer tournament last year.

This is certainly an exciting development although I am also confused as to how it relates to other leagues like L1 and the new BC league. Does this just fill out the gap in between or sit above? I guess we shall see when its formally announced. 

Absolutely fantastic they are doing the best thing with a mens and womens league at the same time. The latter which could be the stepping stone to the womens cpl.

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13 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Any word if this will be owned and operated by CSB like league 1 Ontario, or is it a new group outside of the D1 CPL and D3 L1 Ontario sphere?

From what I understand this will NOT be connected to Canada Soccer Business in any way. 

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15 hours ago, CPLinsider said:

So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East...

Edmonton Scottish got mentioned for this around a year ago on Reddit, but it quickly got deleted again by the person posting that was in the know (think the Victoria Highlanders, TSS, Kelowna, SkSSS and Winnipeg were also supposed to be in the mix in western terms at that point).

This has been in the works for a while and is about creating a CSA sanctioning alternative for the sort of groups that have tended to gravitate towards PDL in the past. Not aligned with CanPL in any way is my understanding as well. If the rumours about CanPL asking for an $8 million expansion fee are true there is definitely a niche for this.

Fingers crossed FC London will do this as the German Club in London would be fine for something like this. At D2 there's likely to be no need to come up with 5000 usually empty seats just for the sake of it to tick a box on the entry requirements in an FCE or Y9 in 2019 sort of way. Strongly suspect JDG's Barrie group will be one of the eastern teams.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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17 hours ago, CPLinsider said:

So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East.

Scottish and Foothills are among the teams playing, but interesting to note is that this new league will also have a women's division as well with 6 teams in the West and 6 teams in the East. Sounds like the Scottish Angels and the Foothills UWS teams will be participating in this league as well.

Scottish apparently plans on building a "microstadium" as well to support this project with shovels in the ground later this year, confirming what Paulus said on his podcast - this Div 2 talk must be what he keeps alluding to. If so, good news for the Canadian soccer pyramid and women's soccer?

8 teams in BC and 8 teams in the Prairies?

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On 2/28/2021 at 2:33 PM, CPLinsider said:

So apparently it was discussed at the Edmonton Scottish AGM today that a new, sanctioned Division 2 league will begin play next year with 8 teams in the West and 8 teams in the East.

Scottish and Foothills are among the teams playing, but interesting to note is that this new league will also have a women's division as well with 6 teams in the West and 6 teams in the East. Sounds like the Scottish Angels and the Foothills UWS teams will be participating in this league as well.

Scottish apparently plans on building a "microstadium" as well to support this project with shovels in the ground later this year, confirming what Paulus said on his podcast - this Div 2 talk must be what he keeps alluding to. If so, good news for the Canadian soccer pyramid and women's soccer?

I'm a little surprised at the number of people excited about this. A potentail "Div 2" operating independently of, and to a certain extent in direct competition with, the CPL seems like it could be a bit of a problem.

Having said that, I heard a rumour last year that the "BC League 1" might end up being a "Western Canada League 1".  This would also line up with that pretty well.  I guess we'll see what unfolds.

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6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm a little surprised at the number of people excited about this. A potentail "Div 2" operating independently of, and to a certain extent in direct competition with, the CPL seems like it could be a bit of a problem.

Having said that, I heard a rumour last year that the "BC League 1" might end up being a "Western Canada League 1".  This would also line up with that pretty well.  I guess we'll see what unfolds.

I think that whenever CSB/CPL are ready for pro/rel around 2026, they might just flat out buy the D2 league

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