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CPL Division II - Pro/Rel discussion


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1 hour ago, toontownman said:

Aye. TFC for example would likely win an appeal just based off playing standard. So unless the standard AND financial level gets to a stage of being comparable the MLS clubs will likely stay put. That is fine. In fact best case scenario for the growth of Canadian soccer. We are getting the best of both worlds and having our cake and eating it right now. 

They'd lose becausw this wouldn't go to court. At best the CAS but as most sport organizations, they are free to interpret their own rules and courts usually don't challenge that.

From an entertainment point of view, we are getting the best of both worlds but FIFA doesn't care about that and deep down, the CSA might start to be over it.

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

The fantasy is taking the 3 MLS clubs as they are and placing them into the CPL. If that happened the CPL would start looking like a much better alternative to the MLS. It simple couldn't happen like that though and the 3 MLS clubs in reality would be an empty husk of their former selves and probably with new names, greatly watered down rosters and likely losing the academy systems.

Yes, there's a lot of misunderstanding of sanctioning issues and the nature of the single entity structure of MLS.

The league holds all the contracts and IPs. While Montreal and Vancouver predates MLS, TFC doesn't. Most likely, ownership would have to sell back their MLS shares and vice-versa and lose all the players + name & logos.

If they choose to stay in the soccer business in Canada, CPL becomes the only option. They would have to rebuild their squads from scratch and rebrand everything. Possible that Montréal and Vancouver could try to keep their brand/buying the IP back but MLS are under no obligation to play ball.

As for academies, does status quo really work though? Yes, they produce players but how many of them actually gets meaningful minutes in MLS? It's just so weird the way they use it and even Saputo sees it as a money loser while Bologna's makes him money. 

If used the right way, their academies would definately give them an obvious edge in CPL and they might actually get more sold elsewhere by actually playing them.

Do the people from Belgium or Turkey laments that their rosters are below La Liga? Fans are still passionate and looks forward to Champions League. Why not here?

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

We have Canadians getting time facing a higher level of opponents, training in better environments and the benefits of the academy systems. What will be an interesting development will be how the rumored MLS u23 league will affect the CPL. Either way more opportunities for young Canadians to get pro minutes somewhere.

I'll never understand this belief that we can't do anything without the US.

Canadians that are very good will still found themselves in MLS or Europe.

Yes we have Canadians getting minutes in MLS but how many and how are they impacting the Canadian program overall?

Why can't those infrastructure, programs and resources be invested in Canadian soccer instead? I get the U23 league but many US fans don't think it will make that much of a difference with all those green cards and TAM-GAM-DP scheming allowing clubs to not play young americans? To me, it's another dead end for our players - different name. Why would it work better for us than it is for them?

1 hour ago, toontownman said:

Canadian clubs staying in the MLS for the mid to long term is what is best for Canadian soccer, not neccesarioy best for the CPL but best for Canadian Soccer. 

After 13 years of MLS, how many Olympics, Hex or World Cup did we qualify for?

How many Gold Cups semifinals?

How many U20 World Cup?

Results don't support that claims. Are we in it just to "participate" or to actually win? The US system is made for Americans, not for us and "trickle down" benefits will never be sufficient to allow us to go the extra step.

That’s my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Ansem said:

The Wales clubs have been in EFL for close or over a century, while Wales started their league only in 1991 -they also fit the exemption based on that. Our clubs have been in MLS from between 12 years and 7 years at the launch of CPL, hardly comparable

I have to ask since you always shoot down other people’s speculation about what might make the MLS teams exempt from being forced out of MLS. Is there something in the statute that indicates how many years in a League makes you exempt from switching? You seem to be speculating that 100 years is obviously enough and 12 years is obviously not enough. Is 20 enough? 30? 50? 80?

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

I have to ask since you always shoot down other people’s speculation about what might make the MLS teams exempt from being forced out of MLS. Is there something in the statute that indicates how many years in a League makes you exempt from switching? You seem to be speculating that 100 years is obviously enough and 12 years is obviously not enough. Is 20 enough? 30? 50? 80?

There's nothing in the statute specifying the number of years. FIFA have the freedom to interpret their own rules however they want.

CONCACAF's handling of Ottawa Fury sets the precedent as they do not recognized the exemption #3 (see below) as valid to grant them further sanction. 

Just like the Fury, the 3 MLS clubs are using #3 as justification to be exempted which will no longer be valid once they are up for renewal.

#1 would be their best bet but CSA, CONCACAF and FIFA must all agree to it... tough because CONCACAF wants to raise the profile of their Champions League and cross-border leagues aren't helpful - that's a reason why UEFA are so against a Super League and other Confederation would not like CONCACAF making such a decision that would go against their interest.

Montagliani hints at this during the Onesoccer interview regarding MLS-MX merger question.

Theses are the exemptions recognized as "exceptional circumstances"
(1) clubs that are in close proximity to another member’s territory and have been long-standing members of the other league 

(2) clubs that have moved because of political conflict or civil war in their homes countries

(3) clubs located in member associations where there isn’t currently a professional league, 

(4) clubs in disputed territories

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In truth coming up to and certainly beyond 2026 if the Canadian Premier League remains workable it will be ever harder to grant exemptions for the 3 MLS clubs.

In fact the CSA will have a good case that the 3 MLS clubs are stifling the development of a domestic top flight league by siphoning the best markets from its top flight league.

If the CPL is sitting at say 10 or so teams with 8 years of league play, I don’t see how the MLS teams can justify their exemption.

The CSA did learn it’s lesson with the Fury and that is that if it gives proper notice period, it can force a team into the Canadian Pyramid.

I would not be surprised if the CSA gives the 3 MLS clubs a 2 year notice period in and around 2024-2025 that they will lose their exemption.  It would surprise me if that does not happen actually.

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6 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

In truth coming up to and certainly beyond 2026 if the Canadian Premier League remains workable it will be ever harder to grant exemptions for the 3 MLS clubs.

In fact the CSA will have a good case that the 3 MLS clubs are stifling the development of a domestic top flight league by siphoning the best markets from its top flight league.

If the CPL is sitting at say 10 or so teams with 8 years of league play, I don’t see how the MLS teams can justify their exemption.

The CSA did learn it’s lesson with the Fury and that is that if it gives proper notice period, it can force a team into the Canadian Pyramid.

I would not be surprised if the CSA gives the 3 MLS clubs a 2 year notice period in and around 2024-2025 that they will lose their exemption.  It would surprise me if that does not happen actually.

I would argue that forcing TFC, IMFC & VWFC into the CPL is a lose-lose situation. Force companies to sell their franchises and start in a  new league? Frankly I would just sell and walk away from the whole thing and then there is a big fanbase that will be *PISSED* at the CPL, not the CSA. Why would anyone do that? 

If you want those three clubs, make the league big & strong enough that the owners of those teams want to join the CPL.

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On 9/6/2020 at 12:39 PM, Ansem said:

They can't be forced into another league but changes of circumstances can force their hands.

There's nothing in FIFA Statute talking about leagues needing to be "comparable" as a reason to not endorce the rule. You're talking "forced parity" which is the exception in the FIFA world, not the norm. 

There was a point where PSG had a payroll bigger than the bottom Ligue 1 combined! Most leaguea have "top 4-5 and then the rest". 

CPL doesn't need to be at the same level as MLS, they need to meet FIFA norms that makes them a true D1, which they do. 

You're misunderstanding Statute 73. It isn't about MLS being comparable to CPL, it's about not allowing clubs to play in another country if it already have a D1, which we now do - hence their exemption becomes invalid once they are up for renewal 

Im not sure if Monaco has a D1 league but they fit the exemption allowing them to play in France. CPL exist, so we can't compare

The Wales clubs have been in EFL for close or over a century, while Wales started their league only in 1991 -they also fit the exemption based on that. Our clubs have been in MLS from between 12 years and 7 years at the launch of CPL, hardly comparable.

There's no "hardship" arguments. MLSE always knew that sanctioning was conditional at FIFA discretion knowing all the rules including Statute 73 and they still agreed to abide by FIFA rules.

Understandably, MLS and the 3 clubs never thought that the CSA would go ahead with a D1 league...I don't blame them but there's absolutely no recourse.

Statute 73 is what's being used to prevent a Super League in UEFA. Why would FIFA ever make an exception for 3 Canadian clubs when they won't even listen to the likes of Bayern, Barca, Madrid, Juventus, Chelsea or Manchester? In The FIFA hierarchy, we're aren't on that level so I'm expecting them to fully enforce it.

The good news is that CPL created a precedent when they were willing to let Ottawa Fury operates at their financial level back then. If there was ever some kind of negotiations, CPL would be insane to not offer the MLS clubs the same if they were willing to join willingly - the added value to the league makes it more than worth it to allow it which would also allow other clubs to level up organically and narrow the gap over time

 

UEFA made the Welsh clubs give up their chance of playing the Welsh FA Cup. They have to play in England's. There would be more probability of the 3 Canadian MLS teams being forced to play in the U.S. Open Cup and not be allowed in the Canadian Championship, rather than them going to CPL.

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15 minutes ago, Trois Reds said:

UEFA made the Welsh clubs give up their chance of playing the Welsh FA Cup. They have to play in England's. There would be more probability of the 3 Canadian MLS teams being forced to play in the U.S. Open Cup and not be allowed in the Canadian Championship, rather than them going to CPL.

The USSF and CONCACAF and CSA would have to agree to that which is between unlikely to pipe dream.

At issue isn't where the 3 MLS teams goes or stay, it's avout IF their sanction in MLS will be renewed. 

I have huge doubts that it will

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34 minutes ago, T_Bison said:

I would argue that forcing TFC, IMFC & VWFC into the CPL is a lose-lose situation. Force companies to sell their franchises and start in a  new league? Frankly I would just sell and walk away from the whole thing and then there is a big fanbase that will be *PISSED* at the CPL, not the CSA. Why would anyone do that? 

If you want those three clubs, make the league big & strong enough that the owners of those teams want to join the CPL.

I totally get that it isn’t the same magnitude (and I am not advocating that the 3 MLS teams should be ultimately forced into CPL) but we heard the same sorts of arguments re the Fury.  Fans would revolt.  The organization wouldn’t be supported.  Etc.  Admittedly, the Fury did fold but it turned out to be the controlled burn that cleared the way for an exciting new team.  
 

If the Impact, Whitecaps, and TFC couldn’t take their names with them anyway due to MLS rights, having a different ownership group come in wouldn’t necessarily  be a fatal blow.  And even if there were a couple of lean years, I can’t see fans in those markets simply abandoning the game.  If at that point CPL was the biggest show in town when it comes to domestic soccer, I honestly think a CPL based in any of those cities would set new standards for support. 

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As far a Pro/Rel within the CanPL. I think it's a completely moot point until you have at least 16 teams, then I think you can have an honest discussion. To be honest, I feel 20 is the magic number where you should split the league in half and institute pro/rel, but that's a long ways off.

As far as Pro/Rel with MLS. Simply put, will never happen. There is no way MLS is going to let a Canadian side in on their revenue sharing without having also paid absurd dues via a franchise fee. They also aren't going to allow a club in that isn't part of the single entity.

As far as moving the MLS teams to the CanPL. Right now, it's not a realistic option, and frankly I don't think it ever will be. I don't think the CSA should force the issue until 1) CanPL teams are drawing 20K + average attendances 2) CanPL teams continue to show V.Cup success against MLS sides 3) There is a clear revenue sharing model in place for MLS teams to parachute into without being financially ravaged.

Lets face it, the three MLS sides make a lot more money off the US TV Deal then the CanPL sides are making with OneSoccer and the occasional CBC broadcast. I think your best option is to get a comparable TV deal (of which the CFL deal with TSN is such a deal) and sell the MLS franchises on the idea of "Hey, you can make close to the same money here, and you get a one time windfall if you sell your franchise rights back to the US. You just need to keep your existing branding as part of the separation.

That said, that's a long, long road that may not happen in my life. We aren't even getting 8K averages in the best markets, nevermind 20K.

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On 9/6/2020 at 1:06 PM, Ansem said:

As for academies, does status quo really work though? Yes, they produce players but how many of them actually gets meaningful minutes in MLS? It's just so weird the way they use it and even Saputo sees it as a money loser while Bologna's makes him money. 

That is a long answer and probably needs visiting in its own topic. It is working for the CPL right now I would say. It is not an overnight process. I'd be interested to see some stats. We are starting to see difference makers every year though. It is hard to tell sometimes whether the academies are failing the players in getting them to the point they need to be or the club. It is interesting for the Caps right now, they have no choice. In the past the players of Bustos era simply weren't quite there and the managers needed the wins to keep his job. If they didn't perform well instantly they were replaced with experience. TFC? It is anyones guess. They seems to be creating more talent than ever but Vanney won't use them, even to blood them. All that said look at the English Premiership and not every club fares very differently. It comes down to the culture of the club and its goals and sometimes its security in the standings. 

My actual point to begin with is that the cost of running the academies (certainly the whitecaps monopoly), should the MLS teams transfer to CPL, would mean they would likely be dropped. The CPL has already said. Hypothetically with all the MLS academies gone they might have to rethink.

If used the right way, their academies would definately give them an obvious edge in CPL and they might actually get more sold elsewhere by actually playing them.

For sure, if they had them still. 

Do the people from Belgium or Turkey laments that their rosters are below La Liga? Fans are still passionate and looks forward to Champions League. Why not here?

Thats not really my point. Peoples romanticized image of for example TFC in the CPL would be a similar roster, What we would get would be TFCII with Zavaleta still starting. That's not to say it still wouldn't be fun for some fans but I am sure it wouldn't be for others. The transition would take time and would upset as many people as it pleased. 

 

On 9/6/2020 at 1:06 PM, Ansem said:

I'll never understand this belief that we can't do anything without the US.

Well the answer is we can't without being detrimental to our own program. Not yet. We could pull the plug, but it would be a step backward for hopefully two steps forward in 10 years when we recovered to push forward. Oh god it sounds like Brexit, abort. We aren't fully reliant on the MLS but why cut the hand that feeds us until we are in a great position to do so. I don't think we are there yet. Let us plot like pigeons, until then, we get the best of both worlds. We do. Say it lots of times, it convinces me.

Canadians that are very good will still found themselves in MLS or Europe.

They will of course, some of them, but how many US teams will take chances on Canadians where the 3 Canadian teams have had to? Unquestionably - Less. Far less. Less opportunities for players to play at a higher level and get moves to Europe or just sit in the MLS. Yes as the CPL grows we will see more upwards movement but there shouldn't be a rush to cut ties with the MLS imo.

Yes we have Canadians getting minutes in MLS but how many and how are they impacting the Canadian program overall?

Not sure if that is the right or most relevant question or not. Right now the Canadian MLS clubs give a higher platform for our players in Canadian clubs and our Canadians, be it in the squad or academy get to work alongside a higher calibre of coaches and players. Stats would be good to see but I am certain there are increasingly more Canadians in the MLS over the past 10 years without question.

In terms of the National program the last CMNT squad had 18 in MLS, 3 in CPL 5 in Europe. Granted it was a weaker roster and the split would be nearer 50/50. Even then some of the Europeans came through the MLS route. We don't need to cut off our nose to spite our face. 

Why can't those infrastructure, programs and resources be invested in Canadian soccer instead? I get the U23 league but many US fans don't think it will make that much of a difference with all those green cards and TAM-GAM-DP scheming allowing clubs to not play young americans? To me, it's another dead end for our players - different name. Why would it work better for us than it is for them?

I was thinking more in terms of the CPL loanees who would now be playing in a U23 league and not in the CPL. If that league does happen, if anything that opens up more doors again for more Canadians to play in the CPL where MLS loanees would have been. It would certainly help the cut adrift Whitecaps Academy that has been wandering aimlessly around. As mentioned earlier, that infrastructure, programs and resources you mention wouldn't be there for MLS clubs who move to CPL as everything would be cut, imo.

On the face of it I am very much for a day where we can absorb the MLS teams and have just American teams in the MLS and Canadian teams in the CPL and a day where we can start closing that gap and being competition. I do also have doubts as to why it should really matter in the end. Either way let's not pretend the MLS hasn't been of huge importance to Canadian soccer's growth over the past 10/15 years and will continue to be huge, even after a time where we are hopefully ready to pull the plug, IF that day comes. 

Yes we are all full of piss and vinegar and want to have our own system but the current status quo gives us time to build the CPL, look at building proper youth, university and semi pro structures around the country while still having 3 platforms to a higher level of exposure, facilities, money and more for players and fans. 

My 2 cents. 

 

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7 hours ago, toontownman said:

Yes we are all full of piss and vinegar and want to have our own system but the current status quo gives us time to build the CPL, look at building proper youth, university and semi pro structures around the country while still having 3 platforms to a higher level of exposure, facilities, money and more for players and fans. 

Hence that's why I always say between post 2026 World Cup & next Media Contract (~2029). The status quo is fine until then.

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34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Hence that's why I always say between post 2026 World Cup & next Media Contract (~2029). The status quo is fine until then.

I am excited to see where we go from now until then. That chunk of the CPL era is going to be huge, not even just potentially, it is. If it wasn't for Covid I think we would be already looking at 2 new clubs to take the league to 10 in 2021. Hopefully 2022 now. 

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12 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

As far a Pro/Rel within the CanPL. I think it's a completely moot point until you have at least 16 teams, then I think you can have an honest discussion. To be honest, I feel 20 is the magic number where you should split the league in half and institute pro/rel, but that's a long ways off.

I've said this a number of times in the past, so apologies for repeating myself, but I don't think splitting CPL in half is the best way to get a D2. Let's say the league has amazing growth and expands by 2 teams every 2 years. In 2022 we have expanded to 10 teams, then 12 in 2024, by 2030 we are at 18 teams, then in 2032 we have 20 teams and split into 2 divisions of 10 teams each. You have just taken the 2030 version of CPL and (in terms of number of teams, repetitive schedule, etc) taken it all the way back to the 2022 version of the CPL that was still trying to find it's legs.

I think it would be better to get to a good size, say 16 teams, but it could be 14 or whatever. Then hopefully if you get a couple more teams ready to join, if there are more in the pipeline, maybe wait a year or 2 to bunch them up and have them start off the D2 league. Maybe there are 3 expansion teams to go into D2, and hopefully (fingers crossed big time on this) there are a couple D3 teams that could be convinced to promote to D2 to round out to 6 teams or something. If you have to take a team or two away from D1 to make the numbers work, so be it, but splitting the league in half is pretty drastic in my opinion. 

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On 9/7/2020 at 2:41 PM, dyslexic nam said:

If the Impact, Whitecaps, and TFC couldn’t take their names with them anyway due to MLS rights, having a different ownership group come in wouldn’t necessarily  be a fatal blow.  And even if there were a couple of lean years, I can’t see fans in those markets simply abandoning the game.  If at that point CPL was the biggest show in town when it comes to domestic soccer, I honestly think a CPL based in any of those cities would set new standards for support. 

I've argued this elsewhere, repeatedly, but it's not that fans in these markets would abandon the game.  It's that a significant number of them would just stop going out to support the local team because it would be deemed to be in a "lower" league.  They probably wouldn't follow MLS, but they'd just follow their overseas team.  The 3 worst markets for the CFL are Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal.  There's huge numbers of football (north american version) in the markets, they just don't care about the CFL.  I think that's the scenario that plays out if they're forced (for whatever reason) in to moving from MLS to CPL.  The weakest market in the CPL last year was York 9, and that's not a coincidence.

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34 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I've argued this elsewhere, repeatedly, but it's not that fans in these markets would abandon the game.  It's that a significant number of them would just stop going out to support the local team because it would be deemed to be in a "lower" league.  They probably wouldn't follow MLS, but they'd just follow their overseas team.  The 3 worst markets for the CFL are Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal.  There's huge numbers of football (north american version) in the markets, they just don't care about the CFL.  I think that's the scenario that plays out if they're forced (for whatever reason) in to moving from MLS to CPL.  The weakest market in the CPL last year was York 9, and that's not a coincidence.

But MLS is also far below the top leagues, yet it gets supported.  Fans in those markets are already demonstrating a capacity to support a league that is undeniably not top tier.  If they were as elitist as you claim, why support MLS, which is easily a third tier league in the global footy superstructure?  Sure CPL would be a step down, but the difference between CPL and MLS is less (IMO)than the difference between MLS and EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga/Serie A.  So I fail to see why CPL couldn’t draw solid crowds if they were the top tier of live footy available locally - much like MLS is now.  

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39 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

But MLS is also far below the top leagues, yet it gets supported.  Fans in those markets are already demonstrating a capacity to support a league that is undeniably not top tier.  If they were as elitist as you claim, why support MLS, which is easily a third tier league in the global footy superstructure?  Sure CPL would be a step down, but the difference between CPL and MLS is less (IMO)than the difference between MLS and EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga/Serie A.  So I fail to see why CPL couldn’t draw solid crowds if they were the top tier of live footy available locally - much like MLS is now.  

Because MLS is still perceived to be the top league available.  It's the league that draws "big" names even if they're at the end of their careers.  There was a significant rise in attendance in all 3 markets when they stepped up from USL/NASL to MLS.

Maybe we're disagreeing over what "solid crowds" are.  But none of the markets would remain at the attendance they're currently at.

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9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Also CFL being weak in the 3 big cities have more to do with demographics and the league being poor at changing with the times.

You put the Argos in the 905 or somewhere else in Southern Ontario and I think they're a 100% fine.

York 9 is essentially in one of the big 3 cities and had the weakest attendance in the league.

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43 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Because MLS is still perceived to be the top league available.  It's the league that draws "big" names even if they're at the end of their careers.  There was a significant rise in attendance in all 3 markets when they stepped up from USL/NASL to MLS.

Maybe we're disagreeing over what "solid crowds" are.  But none of the markets would remain at the attendance they're currently at.

I guess I am not sure by what you mean “top league available”.  

If you mean top league on TV, then MLS isn’t that.  there are far superior European leagues for the footy purists.   In fact, I suspect almost none of the current fans would watch MLS without a local team.

And if you mean top league to see live, MLS wouldn’t be that either in this scenario.  If they vacate the cities, CPL would become that by default.  
 

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1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Because MLS is still perceived to be the top league available

If there's no MLS, CPL becomes the top league "available" in Canada, just like MLS is perceived as the top league in the US despite Liga MX being the true top league.

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

It's the league that draws "big" names even if they're at the end of their careers. 

I always felt that fans were more into their clubs than the league itself - otherwise why isn’t MLS drawing larger rating across Canada?

I think cheering for your club and seeing them facing those giants is a bigger part of it and let's not forget that's the whole point of CCL. Even with only having CPL, we'd send clubs to face those giants.

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

There was a significant rise in attendance in all 3 markets when they stepped up from USL/NASL to MLS.

To MLS credit, the presentation is leagues above those 2. It truly "looks" like a top league. Présentation and marketing absolutely matters to get casuals.

To CPL credit, even casuals and skeptics had no choice but to admit that the league looked much more professional than anticipated. They can only look better going forward.

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Maybe we're disagreeing over what "solid crowds" are.  But none of the markets would remain at the attendance they're currently at.

Winning trophies and flat out winning helps the sales of tickets. Having a shot at being a dynasty clubs sells too. We see examples of top 3-4 clubs crushing the rest and they fill stadiums regardless.

Now, the league would be wise to hype that the CPL campaign doesn't only gets you the North Star shield but sends you to CCL to face MLS and their stars (at the twilight of their careers) and Liga MX.

Post 2026, I'm rather more optimistic 

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2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I guess I am not sure by what you mean “top league available”.  

If you mean top league on TV, then MLS isn’t that.  there are far superior European leagues for the footy purists.   In fact, I suspect almost none of the current fans would watch MLS without a local team.

And if you mean top league to see live, MLS wouldn’t be that either in this scenario.  If they vacate the cities, CPL would become that by default.  
 

I did mean live (since we'd all agree it's not the top league on TV).  The CPL might become the top league available by default, but I think there's going to be a lot of people who don't follow or care about the intricacies of how that came about.  They're going to see that they used to be able to watch the local team in MLS and now they're teams dropped down to the "lesser" CPL. 

As another example: teams that lose NHL teams and replace them with AHL teams don't get the same attendance.  The fans don't stop being fans of hockey, they just don't go out in as many numbers to the "lesser" product even if it's the best available product.

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4 hours ago, Ansem said:

If there's no MLS, CPL becomes the top league "available" in Canada, just like MLS is perceived as the top league in the US despite Liga MX being the true top league.

I always felt that fans were more into their clubs than the league itself - otherwise why isn’t MLS drawing larger rating across Canada?

I think cheering for your club and seeing them facing those giants is a bigger part of it and let's not forget that's the whole point of CCL. Even with only having CPL, we'd send clubs to face those giants.

To MLS credit, the presentation is leagues above those 2. It truly "looks" like a top league. Présentation and marketing absolutely matters to get casuals.

To CPL credit, even casuals and skeptics had no choice but to admit that the league looked much more professional than anticipated. They can only look better going forward.

Winning trophies and flat out winning helps the sales of tickets. Having a shot at being a dynasty clubs sells too. We see examples of top 3-4 clubs crushing the rest and they fill stadiums regardless.

Now, the league would be wise to hype that the CPL campaign doesn't only gets you the North Star shield but sends you to CCL to face MLS and their stars (at the twilight of their careers) and Liga MX.

Post 2026, I'm rather more optimistic 

I've asked you multiple times how a league with a small salary cap and specifically designed not to have dynasty clubs would suddenly have "dynasty clubs", and each time you've chosen to ignore that aspect of your argument.

We've gone in circles on this forever.  I agree with some of what you say, heavily disagree with other parts.  Ultimately, it's still years away, and will depend on a) what stage the CPL is at, b) what the CSA wants, and c) what MLS and the 3 Canadian MLS clubs want.  It's a complicated mess that none of us are capable of answering, and isn't as straightforward as saying "this is the rule" because there are always exceptions to rules.

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3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I've asked you multiple times how a league with a small salary cap and specifically designed not to have dynasty clubs would suddenly have "dynasty clubs", and each time you've chosen to ignore that aspect of your argument.

CPL created a huge precedent in offering to allow Ottawa Fury ro operate at their level at the time.

If there was a case where the MLS teams are given notice that their sanction won't be renewed and that the current owners wanted to negotiate their entry into CPL - the league would be flat out fools to not listen.

If they don't then yes, they are fools.

I'm just thinking thaf if the Fury knowing they were about to be CONCACAF'D, no way in hell MLS current owners don't do the same using that precedent

If they are allowed to spend up to MLS cap - minus DP-GAM-TAM... they would have a head start to build upon giving them that opportunity to start a dynasty 

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Ultimately, it's still years away, and will depend on a) what stage the CPL is at, 

Agreed on the years away. At least post 2026 and ideally right before the TV right renewal of 2029 as the league will want to be in the big 3 cities proper as this would significantly raise the value of the deal - with or without them but ideally, with them 

The values those owners brings to the league from that point going forward is worth letting them operate at cap they will be at.

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

b) what the CSA wants

To have Canada compete globally. If that means getting ALL their assets back under their umbrella they will want just that but let CONCACAF do the deed for them.

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

c) what MLS and the 3 Canadian MLS clubs want. 

Preferable that they launch CPL willingly when CONCACAF indicates that it won't allow Canadian clubs in the US but ultimately, irrelevant. 

As for MLS -1000% irrelevant what they want

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's a complicated mess that none of us are capable of answering, and isn't as straightforward as saying "this is the rule" because there are always exceptions to rules.

The Fury is a huge precedent and the only reason why the MLS teams aren't in the same boat is that waiver allowing them to not reapply for sanctioning on a yearly basis like the Fury had. 

I posted the tweet many times but that waiver has an expiry date and it will be upto the 3 clubs - not MLS - to demonstrate that they qualify for the exemption... The Fury couldn't 

CONCACAF is being anything but consistent at enforcing it, doubtful they make an exemption for MLS. The confederation is looking revamping and significantly expanding their Champions League as theirs extra revenue to be made there and to raise its prestige. Cross-border leagues aren't helping making that case hence a huge reason why UEFA won't allow Super leagues.

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2 hours ago, Ansem said:

If they are allowed to spend up to MLS cap - minus DP-GAM-TAM... they would have a head start to build upon giving them that opportunity to start a dynasty 

The CPL gave Ottawa a 1 year exemption on USL level salaries.  I can't even begin to imagine that they'd give the MLS teams the MLS cap for multiple years (because 1 year would be pointless), or that their wouldn't be absolute rage from the existing CPL teams if that was offered.  The CPL does not want to create dynasties.  They want parity, or as close to it as they can get.

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

To have Canada compete globally. If that means getting ALL their assets back under their umbrella they will want just that but let CONCACAF do the deed for them.

It's entirely possible that they'll determine that Canada's best course of action is to have 3 teams in a stronger league while having an additional domestic league operating.  Another 6-9 years (your 2026-2029 range) will provide some useful data as to whether that's working.

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Preferable that they launch CPL willingly when CONCACAF indicates that it won't allow Canadian clubs in the US but ultimately, irrelevant. 

As for MLS -1000% irrelevant what they want

As always, we'll see.  If MLS and the 3 Clubs decided to challenge the ruling and take it to CSA, CONCACAF might lose.  And then you'd have your "precedent" for clubs being allowed in cross border leagues.  It's entirely possible that FIFA looks at it and says that's not a fight worth having over the 3 clubs, and quietly has CONCACAF not enforce it.

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

The Fury is a huge precedent and the only reason why the MLS teams aren't in the same boat is that waiver allowing them to not reapply for sanctioning on a yearly basis like the Fury had. 

I posted the tweet many times but that waiver has an expiry date and it will be upto the 3 clubs - not MLS - to demonstrate that they qualify for the exemption... The Fury couldn't 

The Ottawa precedent you keep quoting is based on the CPL demonstrating it's at least comparable to USL and thus Ottawa having another option.  In the next 6-9 years, it's incredibly unlikely that the CPL will be able to demonstrate that they're a reasonable comparable option to MLS that the 3 clubs should have to join.  I know people really, really want the CPL to succeed, but that time line for growth doesn't seem even remotely reasonable.  It's therefore more reasonable to assume that the MLS clubs (if they so chose) could rather easily prove they deserve the exemption, and could easily be willing to fight for it.

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

CONCACAF is being anything but consistent at enforcing it, doubtful they make an exemption for MLS. The confederation is looking revamping and significantly expanding their Champions League as theirs extra revenue to be made there and to raise its prestige. Cross-border leagues aren't helping making that case hence a huge reason why UEFA won't allow Super leagues.

The can revamp, retool, and tinker with the Champions League all they want.  The US and Mexico drive the money for it, and all other countries are irrelevant.  Hell, CONCACAF actually probably likes the fact that they can sneak 5 MLS clubs in to it with the Voyagers Cup winner getting a spot and that spot always (to date) going to another MLS team.  No way do they want to risk losing that.  If  CONCACAF wants the Champions League to matter more, the solution isn't "force the 3 MLS teams in Canada to the CPL", it's "crack down on crappy tournaments like the Leagues Cup".

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