Jump to content

CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion


Ansem

Future Division 2  

4 members have voted

  1. 1. How should the second tier be established?

    • League 1 Canada becomes the 2nd Tier with the best clubs from Provincial league 1s joining it?
      3
    • Creating a brand new league (Championship) at that Tier between CPL and League 1 Canada?
      1
    • We don't need a 2nd division
      0
  2. 2. Should CPL clubs ever face relegation?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      0


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

L1O and PDL have very different formats where the length of season is concerned, so that was a mistake in my opinion. Mistakes can always be rectified.

L1O have already shortened their season for 2020. I think there are a couple playoff games that conflict with NCAA/U Sports but that is it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 1:07 PM, youllneverwalkalone said:

I would make D2 a combination of D3 sides wanting to step up (Vaughan, Oakville, Blainville, etc). USL2 sides, interested investors with limited resources and, possibly MLS2 sides. I'd go two regional divisions of 8 clubs. Bus travel, little TV unless OneSoccer needs content, and take what you can get stadiums.

I'm not sure exactly how to answer the investment question. It would appeal to those who don't want to spend big dollars. There are already such investments going on in USL2 and certainly with the MLS clubs. Hell, maybe you force the MLS clubs through sanctioning to subsidize the whole thing. I don't know. You could give everyone a lesser cut of CSB and have a collaborative approach. There are lots of models that could work, because we're really talking about taking what is already there and tweaking it a bit into the pyramid.

I'm sorry but I believe it wouldn't be good to split in 2 Conference. I strongly believe we should have 3 (or more) Conférences. East-West will force some western Ontario cities (Windsor, London?) to be playing West. 70% of the population is living in Windsor-Quebec corridor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since I created this thread, I thought I repost my 1st post 🙂

Here we can discuss:

  • Promotion/Relegation mechanism
  • Cities/areas that could have a team
  • Voyageurs Cup
  • Division II Championship
  • Academies, affiliations and development
  • Relationship with D1 and D3
  • Quotas/Imports
  • League structure
  • Salaries and financial
  • TV and medias
  • Players and staff
  • Etc...

*EDIT*

Reminder of Metropolitan Areas in Canada according to Statistics Canada for 2016

  • Toronto 2.9M
  1. Old Toronto 798k
  2. North York 869K
  3. Scarborough 632k
  4. Etobicoke 365k
  5. York 145k
  6. East York 118k

 

  • Montreal 1.7M

North Central Montreal ~629k (Location of Montreal University Stadium)

Closest boroughs

  1. Côte-des-Neiges–Notre-Dame-de-Grâce 166k
  2. Ahuntsic-Cartierville 134k
  3. Saint-Laurent 99k
  4. Outremont 24k
  5. Villeray–Saint-Michel–Parc-Extension 143k
  6. Cote-Saint-Luc-Hampstead-Montreal-Ouest ~43k
  7. Mount Royal 20k

East Montreal ~589k

  1. Mercier - Hochelaga-Maisonneuve 136k (Stade Saputo)
  2. Rosemont - La Petite Patrie 139k
  3. Montreal-Nord 84k
  4. Saint-Leonard 78k
  5. Anjou 42k
  6. Rivière-des-Prairies-Pointe-aux-Trembles 106k
  7. Montreal-Est 4k

Downtown-Central-South West ~480k

  1. Ville-Marie 89k
  2. Le Plateau-Mont-Royal 104k
  3. Le Sud-Ouest 78k
  4. Verdun 69k
  5. Lasalle 76k
  6. Lachine 44k
  7. Westmount ~20k

West Island ~234k

English Montreal

 

  • Metro Vancouver 2.4M
  1. Vancouver (including North & West) ~812k
  2. Surrey 518k
  3. Burnaby (including New Westminster) 304k
  4. Coquitlam - Port-Coquitlam - Port Moody  232k
  5. Richmond 198k
  6. Langley (District municipality + City) 143k
  7. Delta 102k

*Correct me if I forget or have it wrong, I'm not as knowledgeable of Vancouver

 

  • Calgary 1.4M
  • Ottawa-Gatineau 1.3M
  1. Ottawa 934k
  2. Gatineau 332k
  • Edmonton 1.3M
  • York Region 1.1M
  • Laval (Including Couronne Nord / North Shore) 978k
  1. Laval 422k
  2. North Shore 556k
  • Winnipeg 812k
  • Quebec City 800k
  • Hamilton 747k
  • Mississauga 721k
  • Longueuil (including South Shore Rive Sud) ~700k
  1. Longueuil ~415k
  2. Rive-Sud ~300k
  • Durham Region 645k
  • Brampton 593k
  • Halton Region 548k
  • Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo 523k
  • London 494k
  • Niagara Region 448k
  • Halifax 403k
  • Victoria 367k
  • Windsor 329k
  • Saskatoon 295k
  • Regina 236k
  • Sherbrooke 212k
  • St. John's 202k
  • Barrie 197k
  • Kelowna 194k
  • Abbotsford-Mission 180k
  • Greater Sudbury 164k
  • Kingston 161k
  • Saguenay 160k
  • Trois-Rivieres 156k
  • Guelph 151k
  • Moncton 144k

Blue = MLS Clubs

Red = CPL Clubs

Edited by Ansem
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/12/2020 at 4:25 PM, Impactsupporter said:

What about just doing Division 2 and maybe even D3 WITHIN the CPL if goes beyond 16 teams?

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/02/17/a-radical-proposal-for-a-revised-a-league/

Just a thought.

Think you are confusing what D1, D2 and D3 mean in terms of CSA sanctioning standards with the concept of having a European style promotion and relegation system. CanPL has a D1 level sanctioning because of the standards it has set but could ultimately wind up running multiple divisions at that sanctioning standard, if it winds up with an unmanageable number of teams. Something lower budget, shorter season and college scholarship player and/or semi-pro that is an obvious step down from CanPL but still a step up from D3 sanctioning level like L1O in terms of actually being able to draw a crowd would be a good fit for a D2 sanctioning. Think that's where a Canadian version of PDL would enter the fray.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PDL is amateur and not D4 technically as they don't have a D4 in the USA but it would slot in at that level along with NPSL if they had one as D1-3 is professional only.

D2 in Canada should obviously be of a higher level than the semi-pro D3 leagues L1O and PLSQ but a step below our National D1 CPL.

Edited by CDNFootballer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

PDL is amateur and not D4 technically as they don't have a D4 in the USA but it would slot in at that level along with NPSL if they had one as D1-3 is professional only.

D2 in Canada should obviously be of a higher level than the semi-pro D3 leagues L1O and PLSQ but a step below our National D1 CPL.

There's an obvious need for such a league. We can all tell who's too strong for D3 but struggling in CPL. D2 are for those players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

PDL is amateur...

NCAA compliant would be a better way of describing it. Players officially only get paid for doing things like running soccer camps but technically not for the actual PDL games. The key is that they do still get paid and it's a good way to get soccer into smaller markets like Thunder Bay as a spectator sport.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we talk just population wise, these places could support a D2 club

*Excluding places where D1 seems obvious and likely to happen

*150k and up

  • North York 869K
  • Scarborough 632k
  • Etobicoke 365k
  • North Central Montreal ~629k (Location of Montreal University Stadium)
  • Downtown-Central-South West ~480k
  • West Island ~234k
  • Surrey 518k
  • Burnaby (including New Westminster) 304k
  • Coquitlam - Port-Coquitlam - Port Moody  232k
  • Richmond 198k
  • Gatineau 332k
  • Longueuil (including South Shore Rive Sud) ~700k
  • Durham Region 645k
  • Brampton 593k
  • Halton Region 548k
  • London 494k
  • Niagara Region 448k
  • Regina 236k
  • Sherbrooke 212k
  • St. John's 202k
  • Barrie 197k
  • Kelowna 194k
  • Abbotsford-Mission 180k
  • Greater Sudbury 164k
  • Kingston 161k
  • Saguenay 160k
  • Trois-Rivieres 156k
  • Guelph 151k
  • Charlottetown

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility of seeing a "National D2 league".

  • This league happening, its scope and its potential success weights MASSIVELY on where CPL will be post 2026. We are in the "CPL 1.0" era. Until we hit CPL "2.0" era (around where MLS was when TFC entered the league in 2007), I don't see a D2 happening. This reflects the league's desire to launch a D2 in the 2026 which would be the soonest. They must have reached the same conclusion.
  • World Cup 2026 will be the biggest and let's say CPL capitalizes massively on the success of that event, 2026 will be the PEAK in soccer demand and interest in Canada. Where virtually everywhere else is saturated or the prices to start a club will be very high, Canada remains the richest economy in the world where there lots of room to grow at an affordable price where the interest in the sport will keep on increasing. The closer we get to the world cup, the more investors will be interested in this market and potentially launching a D2 clubs in some of those remaining markets above.
  • A post 2026 Division 2 league could operate slightly lower than today's CPL level. (between ~500K salary cap) while having the Onesoccer platform and CSB available to them do get some extra revenues through media and sponsorship deals. What remains to be seen is if the combination of CPL & the World Cup can drive enough interest in potential D2 areas to get people to watch their team and go to the stadiums. If they can draw enough, a D2 could work if implemented gradually.
  • A national league where teams face a variety of areas across the country is more costly than a regional scheme but undeniably would be the bigger draw and attract more/better sponsors who could have coast to coast visibility. It also increases the scope of the league which I'd like to remind everyone, aims to be fully professional.
  • A great way to raise the prestige of the league is to name it "Canadian Championship" and rename the domestic Cup "Canadian Cup" or "Voyageurs Cup". Also, having the Championship promotion playoffs after the end of the Premier League would be a great way to add spotlights to the league.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/16/2020 at 3:26 PM, Ansem said:

If we talk just population wise, these places could support a D2 club

*Excluding places where D1 seems obvious and likely to happen

*150k and up

  • Surrey 518k
  • Burnaby (including New Westminster) 304k
  • Longueuil (including South Shore Rive Sud) ~700k
  • Brampton 593k
  • Halton Region 548k
  • London 494k
  • Niagara Region 448k
  • Regina 236k
  • Sherbrooke 212k
  • St. John's 202k
  • Kelowna 194k
  • Abbotsford-Mission 180k

 

  • A national league where teams face a variety of areas across the country is more costly than a regional scheme but undeniably would be the bigger draw and attract more/better sponsors who could have coast to coast visibility. It also increases the scope of the league which I'd like to remind everyone, aims to be fully professional.

In my mind, these locations I've culled from your list are also candidates for Div 1. I think you could also have a national Div 2 with an MLS structure to help keep travel costs down. Have regional conferences, where teams play 1 game per season against inter-conference teams and the remaining games against in-conference teams. But that would be only ideal if there are more than 15 teams in Div 2. For less than that, just keep the single table, with 2 games against every other team in the table with extra games against local rivals to make up the slack. 

However, I'd be okay with the following structure at first:

Div 1 - 8 teams play a balanced schedule of 28 games in a single table. Top team wins season, top 3 teams win places in Concacaf League play, and bottom 2 teams have a home-and-away playoff with the loser getting relegated to Div 2 the following season.

Div 2 - 10-14 teams play a schedule of 26 games in a single table. Top 4 teams have a two-round home-and-away playoff with the winner getting promoted to Div 1 the following season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Initial B said:

I think you could also have a national Div 2 with an MLS structure to help keep travel costs down. Have regional conferences, where teams play 1 game per season against inter-conference teams and the remaining games against in-conference teams. But that would be only ideal if there are more than 15 teams in Div 2. For less than that, just keep the single table, with 2 games against every other team in the table with extra games against local rivals to make up the slack. 

There's not enough markets outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor to make that work. If anything, having more teams in travelling within the corridor (bus-short distance, Via Rail longer distances) would make up for the instances where teams have to fly west.

CPL is capable of doing so with modest means as of now, if 10 years from now CPL is 2.0 and you establish a division II within the same financial standards as CPL 1.0 inaugural year, I don't see why they couldn't pull it off. Besides, western teams would have to fly regardless, so travelling costs being managed by the league can make this doable.

Just like it is the case for CPL, the division II would need owners "willing and able" to absorb the costs for a long period of time to be part of such a league to meet whatever standards they agree upon. It's not that simple nor automatic that a bunch of D3 clubs will jump in D2.

 

3 hours ago, Initial B said:

Div 1 - 8 teams play a balanced schedule of 28 games in a single table. Top team wins season, top 3 teams win places in Concacaf League play, and bottom 2 teams have a home-and-away playoff with the loser getting relegated to Div 2 the following season.

Div 2 - 10-14 teams play a schedule of 26 games in a single table. Top 4 teams have a two-round home-and-away playoff with the winner getting promoted to Div 1 the following season.

Going from 16-20 clubs down to 8 is a great way to kill the momentum/buzz for the league. There's nothing attractive about such a proposal and that's certainly not what CPL wants.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

Going from 16-20 clubs down to 8 is a great way to kill the momentum/buzz for the league. There's nothing attractive about such a proposal and that's certainly not what CPL wants.

Then what *does* the CPL want for a final Div 1 size? 10 teams? 12? 14? 16? I can't see larger than that because we simply don't have the playing season window to stretch a season longer than 30 games. Do we need a 100-year vision, like J-League? Even then, they needed to acquire a couple of semi-professional clubs to make the jump in order to set up J2, which started out at 10 teams.

Or should we look at more modest goals like K-league? I'm of the opinion that the later would be a more likely path to follow, but look at the trouble the K-League 2  teams are having - teams coming and going and with fewer teams than it's Div 1 counterpart. How would Relegated CanPL teams deal with the drop in revenue while still dealing with the same transportation and operational costs? Sure, fans may like the intensity of a relegation battle, but assuredly the owners of those clubs would not. Why would any investor want to buy into a league where they have to start at the bottom of Div 2 and their revenue is going to struggle? Unless even Div 2 teams get a cut of the Div 1 Media revenues, it's going to be a non-starter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My ideal if/when we have a strong CPL and an appetite for more pro teams would be to not split up the CPL, but rather grow the D2/D3 levels. Share the media money, sponsorship money and travel costs across D1 and D2. So the only drop in revenue if you relegate would be from the gates if fans don’t come out in as big numbers. Teams that want to join CPL after it is filled up but before D2 has enough teams could operate in a D3 league in the meantime. Hopefully we have enough coverage geographically at the D3 level for prospective D2 teams to have a local option, but if a team from Saskatchewan has to play in BC or a team from New Brunswick has to play in Quebec it shouldn’t be that big of a deal if they have the money to ultimately play pro.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Two very good articles. It'll be interesting to see what will happen to a potential second division. I can easily see a total of 30 markets across the country that can make 2 divisions in this country a reality. Here's hope to the CSA and CSB continuing to bring professional football in our country to a higher level 👌🏾

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know it's probably one of the least likely places to get a team but I would love if the North Shore (North/West Vancouver) got a team. It's estimated current population is 192441. Why I doubt this will ever happen is due to how close it is to the Whitecaps and due to the rumored team in Langley/Surrey. We also lack any real stadium at the moment besides from a very small stand at Fen Burdett park.

Edited by SkuseisLoose
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In an interesting move, Liga MX has decided to halt promotion-relegation for 5 years.  The pandemic is the primary reason given, but it definitely seems like finances are the real reason with most 2nd division clubs failing to meet the standards of the top tier and not being promoted up as it is.  Clubs in the 2nd division will each be paid about US $845k a year, and there's going to be a focus on youth player development at that level.

https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/liga-mx-suspends-promotion-relegation-for-five-years/

I wonder if other leagues will take this time to consider doing the same thing.  And I guess what I'm also saying is that if Mexico can't make a 2nd division work, I don't think Canada could either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Ansem changed the title to CPL/L1C - Division II - Pro/Rel discussion

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...