General Discussion on CMNT

[Guest]

4 hours ago, matty said:

Not at all. I just want to secure that Canadians will be playing in MLS and am actually shocked this is such a controversial position given that this is meant to be a Canadian fan forum.

Because some of us are also fans of club teams. We want to support the national team but also don't want our club teams to suffer for it. Having a 4 man quota would extremely handicap our teams and again, would put them in the same position as Montreal. With the Cpl coming it will help in developing players who are too good for USL and aren't good enough yet for the MLS

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, canta15 said:

Because some of us are also fans of club teams. We want to support the national team but also don't want our club teams to suffer for it. Having a 4 man quota would extremely handicap our teams and again, would put them in the same position as Montreal. With the Cpl coming it will help in developing players who are too good for USL and aren't good enough yet for the MLS

2?

I feel that zero requirements can no longer fly. Sorry

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ansem

[matty]

53 minutes ago, canta15 said:

Because some of us are also fans of club teams. We want to support the national team but also don't want our club teams to suffer for it. Having a 4 man quota would extremely handicap our teams and again, would put them in the same position as Montreal. With the Cpl coming it will help in developing players who are too good for USL and aren't good enough yet for the MLS

Dude I've said I'm flexible in the number like a half dozen times. I think 2 like you suggested could work with a gradual increase over 5-10 years.

And even with cpl it's important that mls also take player development for Canada more seriously.

[Grizzly]

2 hours ago, canta15 said:

Because some of us are also fans of club teams. We want to support the national team but also don't want our club teams to suffer for it. Having a 4 man quota would extremely handicap our teams and again, would put them in the same position as Montreal. With the Cpl coming it will help in developing players who are too good for USL and aren't good enough yet for the MLS

The Impact are not in the position we are in because of our Canadian players. Our Canadian players have been our best players this year, AJH, Piette and even Bernier still at his age. LBG and Choiniere have been decent as subs and while Crepeau had one bad game (in a game where the team as a whole was absolutely horrible) I still think he is a promising keeper. If anything I think the Canadian players especially AJH should have gotten more playing time. I am not claiming the Impact has another 3 or 4 Canadians who could be MLS starters but the ones we have have been our best players all season. The Impact has been poor because of the poor play of our foreigners in particular our Italian, American and Argentine (with the obvious exception of Piatti) players. Obviously all of those countries have good players who are not playing for the Impact and one can build a good team of foreigners if you choose them right but you can't make the correlation that the Impact were bad because we were the MLS team that played Canadians the most this year when those same Canadians were our best players and were underplayed by an incompetent management team. I would argue if we had given AJH a far bigger chunk of the minutes Mancosu played and had Piette for the full season we would at least be battling for a playoff spot if not have one already locked up as opposed to being eliminated.

[Dub Narcotic]

I think a quota number of zero, increasing to zero, works. Every club team in this country, except for TFC, is having problems with attendance, and the solution here is to decrease the quality of the teams? The CSA put rigorous quotas on the USL 2 teams and that played a big part in making them useless financial drains to the parent clubs and leading to their eventual demise. Someone can explain to me how the non-existence of FC Montreal and Whitecaps 2 is helping Canadian players.

Reasonably high-level club soccer in this country is a good in itself and, I would argue, the most important one for soccer in this country. We have L1O, PLSQ, VMSL and the CPL (maybe) that play hundreds of Canadian players already; people are already more than free to go support those leagues and teams in a majority of the country.

The MLS clubs are by far the most important elements for producing quality Canadian players and their biggest problem is getting a competitive, attractive product on the field that people are willing to spend money on. Being forced to play Russell Teibert or Jay Chapman more hurts, rather than helps, Canadian soccer. If a Canadian player can't beat out a Hernan Bernadello, Jordan Harvey or Evan Bush they aren't good enough to make a difference at the international level in any case. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Being forced to play Russell Teibert or Jay Chapman more hurts, rather than helps, Canadian soccer. If a Canadian player can't beat out a Hernan Bernadello, Jordan Harvey or Evan Bush they aren't good enough to make a difference at the international level in any case. 

How do you expect them to improve by being on the bench? Haven't you noticed that EVERYONE makes mistakes here and there but Americans and Internationals are forgiven way more swiftly than Canadians unless you're Cyle Larin.

The best players in any sports have made mistakes during games. That's the bigger picture some people can't seem to understand. I think we do have talented players and/or with potential, however, they know in the back of their heads that 1 mistake and they're benched. The best of best makes mistakes but most importantly learns from them.

Evan Bush never made mistakes??? Watch more game and you'll see this couldn't be further than the truth. Bernadello? I saw him make mistakes that made my eyes bleed.

So enough of this, the CSA should impose a minimum of 2 on MLS teams, otherwise, what's the F'N point?

What's the problem with Canada?

Too many players making mistakes on international stage when they should be making them at club level and learning from them at club F'N level.

We shouldn't waste our international windows to give playing time to players who don't get any at club level hoping for a miracle...in the process Canada continues to have a ridiculous ranking at FIFA while being a laughingstock because we can't consistently beat Salvador, Honduras or Jamaica.

So our 3 MLS clubs won't play at least 2 Canadians at all times to help the national program? Perhaps they should be reminded who's ultimately in charge in regards to their sanctioning to MLS.

How long am I going to keep reading to F'N colonized posts??? Americans imposed requirements to help their program but noooo....CSA can't do that to our 3 "questionable Canadian" teams because people won't go see them anymore...disappointing

 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ansem

[Ansem]

To add to the above, I think CPL will actually open some eyes, that we have more potential and talent than we knew. Players development will be faster in an environment where they can fully express themselves on the pitch and play their true games without that fear of being benched for the next 10-15 games if they try something daring or instinctive. Where a correction is needed, the coaching staff will address it. If the same mistakes are done over and over again, then he should be benched or sent down to give another Canadian the chance to show what he got.

You can't get good on the bench. Period

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

19 minutes ago, Ansem said:

How do you expect them to improve by being on the bench? Haven't you noticed that EVERYONE makes mistakes here and there but Americans and Internationals are forgiven way more swiftly than Canadians unless you're Cyle Larin.

We've been giving Davies and Teibert phenomenally long leashes. Bustos and Teibert wouldn't be in the team if they weren't Canadian and Davies has not been deserving of the minutes he's got this season. The Caps are trying to get Canadians involved to their own detriment. I don't think running Teibert out to watch him get turned inside out by players well above his level is helping anybody.

I'm not ultimately against a CSA mandate on MLS clubs with the goal of getting Canadian players in MLS, but it would need to be more nuanced then "start four Canadians". Here's what the Caps do if they are forced to play four Canadians: 1) We sign Hutch or Arfield as a DP. 2) We run Davies into the ground by playing him 90 minutes every week as a withdrawn right midfielder. 3) Kadin Chung is called up from starting in the USL to sit on the Caps bench in case Davies or De Jong need to be subbed. 4) Bustos and Teibert don't magically learn to pass and defend at an MLS level.

I'd rather see a requirement that all Canadian MLS teams must play two u23 Canadians 500 minutes a season. At least that way the teams can start their strongest lineups in the bigger games and can't just sign older Canadians from abroad to meet the quota.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

We've been giving Davies and Teibert phenomenally long leashes. Bustos and Teibert wouldn't be in the team if they weren't Canadian and Davies has not been deserving of the minutes he's got this season. The Caps are trying to get Canadians involved to their own detriment. I don't think running Teibert out to watch him get turned inside out by players well above his level is helping anybody.

I'm not ultimately against a CSA mandate on MLS clubs with the goal of getting Canadian players in MLS, but it would need to be more nuanced then "start four Canadians". Here's what the Caps do if they are forced to play four Canadians: 1) We sign Hutch or Arfield as a DP. 2) We run Davies into the ground by playing him 90 minutes every week as a withdrawn right midfielder. 3) Kadin Chung is called up from starting in the USL to sit on the Caps bench in case Davies or De Jong need to be subbed. 4) Bustos and Teibert don't magically learn to pass and defend at an MLS level.

I'd rather see a requirement that all Canadian MLS teams must play two u23 Canadians 500 minutes a season. At least that way the teams can start their strongest lineups in the bigger games and can't just sign older Canadians from abroad to meet the quota.

So everyone else impose quotas on their teams but Canada shouldn't so we stay "entertained" by an American league while our National team keeps under-performing?

Makes no sense to me why a quota of 2 starting can't be imposed. Nothing will ever justify that in my mind, especially with arguments like "booohoo" it's unfair for our clubs and they won't compete. That argument is too weak. Is missing the Hex worth watching status quo go on much longer?

If anything, it's the CSA that's been too nice to those clubs for far too long. With CPL arriving, I wouldn't be surprised that they change their tune and impose said restrictions, as they should.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ansem

[Blackjack15]

The El Salvador Primera Division has 12 teams, which means the National team has over THREE HUNDRED PLAYERS to choose from domestically, and they select the BEST 15 with the rest coming from the US, Mexico, Iceland, Portugal and other Central american leagues. This is an issue towards lack of depth/player pool. They can see their team play on a week to week basis and Canada can simply not (Some but not much)

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

So everyone else impose quotas on their teams but Canada shouldn't so we stay "entertained" by an American league while our National team keeps under-performing?

Makes no sense to me why a quota of 2 starting can't be imposed. Nothing will ever justify that in my mind, especially with arguments like "booohoo" it's unfair for our clubs and they won't compete. That argument is too weak. Is missing the Hex worth watching status quo go on much longer?

Okay. 2 starters. We have De Jong, sign Arfield as a DP and have Davies/Edgar off the bench. We'll need to keep Teibert as player 18 on the team sheet just in case I guess. Is that what you're looking to accomplish? 

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, Blackjack15 said:

The El Salvador Primera Division has 12 teams, which means the National team has over THREE HUNDRED PLAYERS to choose from domestically, and they select the BEST 15 with the rest coming from the US, Mexico, Iceland, Portugal and other Central american leagues. This is an issue towards lack of depth/player pool. They can see their team play on a week to week basis and Canada can simply not (Some but not much)

And that is an issue I really hope the CPL and MLS academies solve in the very near future.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

sign Arfield as a DP

Hell no, he stays in England

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Okay. 2 starters. We have De Jong, sign Arfield as a DP and have Davies/Edgar off the bench. We'll need to keep Teibert as player 18 on the team sheet just in case I guess. Is that what you're looking to accomplish? 

So you're suggesting more of the same instead. How's that any better? May I remind you that MLS has 3 Canadian markets that contributed immensely to that league? Why is having Canadians starting such a taboo? What the hell are we doing in that league anyways if Canadians can't be domestics in that league, if Americans are domestics on Canadian teams and starting 2 Canadians in Canada is a big no-no???

Montagliani was right...We gave a lot to that league and it's starting to get hard to see what we're getting in return. I don't see a win-win relationship here. Mandatory 2 Canadians starting or playing throughout the game is a minimum.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ansem

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

And that is an issue I really hope the CPL and MLS academies solve in the very near future.

So in the meantime we stay as mediocre and do more of the same... Nope, we need to act, no matter how unpleasant our 3 MLS clubs finds it.

[DannyFromToronto23]

Arfield should come to Toronto fc in like 2-3 years if Bradley retires , since his dad is from Toronto 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, DannyFromToronto23 said:

Arfield should come to Toronto fc in like 2-3 years if Bradley retires , since his dad is from Toronto 

As long as TFC don't plan to bench him too

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Hell no, he stays in England

So you're suggesting more of the same instead. How's that any better? May I remind you that MLS has 3 Canadian markets that contributed immensely to that league? Why is having Canadians starting such a taboo? What the hell are we doing in that league anyways if Canadians can't be domestics in that league, if Americans are domestics on Canadian teams and starting 2 Canadians in Canada is a big no-no???

1) I suggested an alternative.

2) It isn't. But forcing the CMLS teams into starting a certain number of Canadians doesn't do anything in my opinion. MLS-level Canadians will be signed from Europe or Orlando and Bustos/Teibert will continue to play at a USL level in the games they do get. The Caps scout all of Western Canada and have two prospects that currently project as future MLS starters. The players just aren't there right now. 

3) That's a completely different conversation, and a more logical issue to address. 

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

2) It isn't. But forcing the CMLS teams into starting a certain number of Canadians doesn't do anything in my opinion. MLS-level Canadians will be signed from Europe or Orlando and Bustos/Teibert will continue to play at a USL level in the games they do get. The Caps scout all of Western Canada and have two prospects that currently project as future MLS starters. The players just aren't there right now. 

Canadian poor performance has a lot to do with lack of minutes at club level. So I disagree that it wouldn't do anything.

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

Canadian poor performance has a lot to do with lack of minutes at club level. So I disagree that it wouldn't do anything.

Again, the logical progression from the rule you proposed is to sign players who have proven they can play at the MLS level or trot out players that are well off the level and hope the team can make due with a weak link. The Caps aren't sitting a top a pile of 19 year old USL proven Canadians who are ready to take the next step. The players that you want to benefit from your rule don't exist. That's a youth development issue...and what happens when you have a country with less than ten good academies sharing a pro league with a country with nearly a hundred.   

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Blackjack15 said:

The El Salvador Primera Division has 12 teams, which means the National team has over THREE HUNDRED PLAYERS to choose from domestically, and they select the BEST 15 with the rest coming from the US, Mexico, Iceland, Portugal and other Central american leagues. This is an issue towards lack of depth/player pool. They can see their team play on a week to week basis and Canada can simply not (Some but not much)

I don’t think you took into account all of the foreign players playing in their league.... 

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Again, the logical progression from the rule you proposed is to sign players who have proven they can play at the MLS level or trot out players that are well off the level and hope the team can make due with a weak link. The Caps aren't sitting a top a pile of 19 year old USL proven Canadians who are ready to take the next step. The players that you want to benefit from your rule don't exist. That's a youth development issue...and what happens when you have a country with less than ten good academies sharing a pro league with a country with nearly a hundred.   

I'm just proposing 2 per teams. Nothing revolutionary here.  That would force those 3 to play the Canadians they have more often. That's a realistic way to make them contribute without penalizing them too hard.

As of now, status quo is insufficient

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

As long as TFC don't plan to bench him too

If he is shit he’ll get benched

[Ansem]

Just now, canta15 said:

If he is shit he’ll get benched

But we both know he isn't!

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Canadian poor performance has a lot to do with lack of minutes at club level. So I disagree that it wouldn't do anything.

It also has a lot to do with our association not utilizing our windows properly 

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Ansem said:

I'm just proposing 2 per teams. Nothing revolutionary here.  That would force those 3 to play the Canadians they have more often. That's a realistic way to make them contribute without penalizing them too hard.

As of now, status quo is insufficient

So if De Jong and Davies go down we're playing with a Teibert, Bustos central midfield...

We'd be the first MLS team to finish a game with 10% possession.

Anyways, our positions are clear to each other at this point. I just think we need to focus less on a rule that pushes square pegs into round holes and more on developing circles.