General Discussion on CMNT

[Guest]

1 hour ago, matty said:

No I want them to find a way to win with Canadians playing. I'm flexible on the number (4 is ideal) but I want the days of having a Canadian team starting 0 Canadians to end.

well with the cpl helping develop top talent, the MLS teams can still be competitive and not have to be relied on to develop top talent. If the Whitecaps or Tfc had to start 4 Canadians they’d be in the same position as Montreal. I’m not sure their fans would like that

[matty]

Just now, canta15 said:

well with the cpl helping develop top talent, the MLS teams can still be competitive and not have to be relied on to develop top talent. If the Whitecaps or Tfc had to start 4 Canadians they’d be in the same position as Montreal. I’m not sure their fans would like that

I agree the CPL will improve things but we all know it will be weaker than MLS in terms of play. Having as many of our guys as we can playing at one of the two highest levels in the region is key to our success going forward. Besides with CPL the number of young players that might be MLS worthy will increase greatly and will keep those 3 teams competitive with their US rivals.

If the MLS teams want to be here they need to help develop Canadians and playing them is key to that development. I'm flexible on the number but I want Canadians on those pitches at all times

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, matty said:

I agree the CPL will improve things but we all know it will be weaker than MLS in terms of play. Having as many of our guys as we can playing at one of the two highest levels in the region is key to our success going forward. Besides with CPL the number of young players that might be MLS worthy will increase greatly and will keep those 3 teams competitive with their US rivals.

If the MLS teams want to be here they need to help develop Canadians and playing them is key to that development. I'm flexible on the number but I want Canadians on those pitches at all times

If there had to be a quota 2 would be a reasonable number right now

[harrycoyster]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

Look China's FA limited the number of non-nationals in their crazy spending league so they could ensure the improvement of Chinese soccer. Why not take some notes from them because what we've been doing with these MLS teams largely hasn't been working.

Do you think the Chinese system is working? That league is more or less a bunch of Chinese players playing defense and booting the ball to overpaid Brazilians. Plus that is only feasible because that rule is league-wide. Forcing three clubs to play four Canadians each is a gigantic disadvantage on and off the field.

What you're describing should be in place in the CPL, not MLS. None of our MLS teams would be as competitive, and that's the last thing you want for the sport in this country. You force the Whitecaps to start Davies, Tiebert and Bustos right now and we'd have the weakest midfield in the league. You are creating a solution to the wrong problem. The biggest issue with Canadian soccer has been and continues to be the scale and quality of youth development. The MLS teams just don't have a pool of young MLS-level Canadian players to choose from. 

[jpg75]

The biggest problem for Canadian soccer has been and continues to be professional playing opportunities.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Do you think the Chinese system is working? That league is more or less a bunch of Chinese players playing defense and booting the ball to overpaid Brazilians. Plus that is only feasible because that rule is league-wide. Forcing three clubs to play four Canadians each is a gigantic disadvantage on and off the field.

What you're describing should be in place in the CPL, not MLS. None of our MLS teams would be as competitive, and that's the last thing you want for the sport in this country. You force the Whitecaps to start Davies, Tiebert and Bustos right now and we'd have the weakest midfield in the league. You are creating a solution to the wrong problem. The biggest issue with Canadian soccer has been and continues to be the scale and quality of youth development. The MLS teams just don't have a pool of young MLS-level Canadian players to choose from. 

Ok Harry. China's move is part of a long term plan which will likely be greatly successful given its scale. I'm suggesting setting a quota (and am flexible on the number) which is less than half a roster and your calling it too radical.

You're also suggesting the MLS teams shouldn't assist Canada's all-time biggest issue (playing time at high levels) because they'll have to adjust and find alternative ways to win in MLS. That's some bullshit right there.

[matty]

14 minutes ago, canta15 said:

If there had to be a quota 2 would be a reasonable number right now

Look Harry, me and canta are now negotiating the number because I said flexible.

2 non-keepers at all times and an U23 needs to be a sub if both of the original 2 Canadians are subbed off. 3 players by 2020 and 4 by 2022

Edited October 10, 2017 by matty

[harrycoyster]

Just now, matty said:

Ok Harry. China's move is part of a long term plan which will likely be greatly successful given its scale. I'm suggesting setting a quota (and am flexible on the number) which is less than half a roster and your calling it too radical.

You're also suggesting the MLS teams shouldn't assist Canada's all-time biggest issue (playing time at high levels) because they'll have to adjust and find alternative ways to win in MLS. That's some bullshit right there.

We have no proof that the Chinese model is sustainable let alone successful. Only time will tell.

I don't think adding a major roster restriction on our MLS teams does any good for our program or our national team. The entire point of the CPL is to address the "opportunity" problem. I'd like to see the Caps win a MLS Cup in my lifetime. If we are forced to play 4 Canadians at all times, we'd A- never sell Davies, B- have to buy one or two CMNT players playing in better leagues, and C- force our best Canadian USL players onto our first team bench, cutting into their pro minutes. How is any of that good for the program? Forcing MLS teams to play 2 or 4 or 6 or 11 Canadians in MLS does not make the academies produce more MLS-level players. Trust me, it's almost immediately evident when a player isn't up to the standard (ask a Caps fan about Tiebert's season or TFC fans about Ben Spencer). I watch almost every WC2 game, no Canadian on that team is ready for MLS. Kadin Chung is the only one that's all that close. 

[matty]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

We have no proof that the Chinese model is sustainable let alone successful. Only time will tell.

I know but it looks highly likely that it will be

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

I don't think adding a major roster restriction on our MLS teams does any good for our program or our national team.

Do the restrictions the US puts on our MLS teams help them? 

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

The entire point of the CPL is to address the "opportunity" problem.

The CPL will address it but it doesn't solve it. This doesn't either but it sure helps a lot

3 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

If we are forced to play 4 Canadians at all times, we'd A- never sell Davies, B- have to buy one or two CMNT players playing in better leagues, and C- force our best Canadian USL players onto our first team bench, cutting into their pro minutes.

A) Yes we would unless the Caps want to possibly pay him DP money B ) or sign strong Canadians from decent leagues or trade for someone or promote someone C) The goal of USL is to get you to MLS, so that's likely happening either way

6 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Forcing MLS teams to play 2 or 4 or 6 or 11 Canadians in MLS does not make the academies produce more MLS-level players. 

It actually might result in them not only trying to produce quality more but also working with OTHER ACADEMIES LIKE SIGMA OR DUTCH SKILLZ to find talent. 

[harrycoyster]

21 minutes ago, matty said:

Do the restrictions the US puts on our MLS teams help them?

Not at all. But removing American restrictions and placing extra restrictions are two different things.

21 minutes ago, matty said:

A) Yes we would unless the Caps want to possibly pay him DP money B ) or sign strong Canadians from decent leagues or trade for someone or promote someone C) The goal of USL is to get you to MLS, so that's likely happening either way

A) The Caps have Davies under contract for two more seasons. By then he may warrant a young DP contract. B ) Who is a Canadian from a decent league not named Hoilett, Arfield, Hutch or Cav that would start on the Whitecaps? Does trading in league for Larin or Johnson accomplish anything for our program? C) The goal of USL is development, not to move players up the ladder prematurely and undeservingly because we need a filler Canadian in case De Jong goes down.

21 minutes ago, matty said:

It actually might result in them not only trying to produce quality more but also working with OTHER ACADEMIES LIKE SIGMA OR DUTCH SKILLZ to find talent. 

They do work with other academies. I understand that the youth programs in Ontario are more political, but the Caps have the heartbeat of every youth club west of Winnipeg. Davies didn't end up in Vancouver by mistake. The non-MLS Canadian academies just don't produce high level prospects.  The youth national teams aren't filled with MLS academy players because the CSA is supremely lazy. Nowadays most decent players are in a MLS academy by 15, some fall through the cracks of course, but that happens in every country in the world. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by harrycoyster

[matty]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

Not at all. But removing American restrictions and placing extra restrictions are two different things.

Before I get to anything else are you saying the roster rules don't help the USMNT? 

[harrycoyster]

Just now, matty said:

Before I get to anything else are you saying the roster rules don't help the USMNT? 

I read your question wrong. I thought you were sarcastically asking if the American restrictions help us. I'd agree that having ~20ish "domestic" players playing in Canada is beneficial to the US if that's what you're getting at. 

[Dub Narcotic]

We literally just had two USL teams fold in two years in no small part to the CSA's ridiculous quota system and now we want expand it as it applies to the MLS teams? No need to argue about China, we saw what a flop it is here already.

[matty]

Just now, harrycoyster said:

I read your question wrong. I thought you were sarcastically asking if the American restrictions help us. I'd agree that having ~20ish "domestic" players playing in Canada is beneficial to the US if that's what you're getting at. 

Ok was like "what the hell" for a sec there

10 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Not at all. But removing American restrictions and placing extra restrictions are two different things.

While short term it could be an issue long term it would be a move that would help both the program and teams

11 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

A) The Caps have Davies under contract for two more seasons. By then he may warrant a young DP contract. B ) Who is a Canadian from a decent league not named Hoilett, Arfield, Hutch or Cav that would start on the Whitecaps? Does trading in league for Larin or Johnson accomplish anything for our program? C) The goal of USL is development, not to move players up the ladder prematurely and undeservingly because we need a filler Canadian in case De Jong goes down.

Not gonna address because it is years off but feel if he is what say Man U want they'll pay and the Caps would sell

B ) The first one that comes to mind is Vitoria because he has played MLS before and is still playing at a good level (I understand looking down on him here). James has proved a good defender and should move up to a league like MLS. Borjan of course could run in MLS. Kaye looks to be ready for the move. Not to mention Henry and even Adekugbe, both of whom can play at MLS levels when healthy.

C) USL is there to get you ready for MLS and as I said earlier a gradual increase in required CanCon is cool.

27 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

They do work with other academies. I understand that the youth programs in Ontario are more political, but the Caps have the heartbeat of every youth club west of Winnipeg. Davies didn't end up in Vancouver by mistake. The non-MLS Canadian academies just don't produce high level prospects. The youth national teams aren't filled with MLS academy players because the CSA is supremely lazy. Nowadays most decent players are in a MLS academy by 15, some fall through the cracks of course, but that happens in every country in the world. 

They do work with many but they also don't work with many. I admit the Caps have made their mark on Canadian academies (I think you have them in Kingston and Halifax as well) but I am talking about the situation in Ontario ATM mainly. Work needs to be done there and something like this could result in such work. Then maybe TFC wouldn't miss out on a Larin or a James.

[matty]

1 minute ago, Dub Narcotic said:

We literally just had two USL teams fold in two years in no small part to the CSA's ridiculous quota system and now we want expand it as it applies to the MLS teams? No need to argue about China, we saw what a flop it is here already.

USL teams folding isn't cause of quotas it's cause there's a limited market for reserve sides so it's hard to make that worth it. Also China's plan is a long term one (the plan is to be a mega soccer power by 2050), the fact they're out now doesn't indicate anything about it.

[jpg75]

The lack of quota in the EPL seems to really be helping the England NT.

[harrycoyster]

23 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

The lack of quota in the EPL seems to really be helping the England NT.

And a quota would lower the level of play. It's a double-edged sword. As we will see with the CPL, leagues need to decide between foreign quality and domestic minutes. The Irish League has almost entirely domestic players and it sucks, doesn't draw, and has gotten worse at development over time. The Belgian League doesn't have a domestic quota and has 60% foreign players (up from around 40% fifteen years ago)...which is the highest of the European leagues outside of the EPL. Belgium is currently in a golden generation and export 5-10 battle-tested players every year to the top 5 leagues.

Quotas aren't always good or bad. I'm in the camp that youth quotas are generally far better for player development than domestic quotas are. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, matty said:

B ) The first one that comes to mind is Vitoria because he has played MLS before and is still playing at a good level (I understand looking down on him here). James has proved a good defender and should move up to a league like MLS. Borjan of course could run in MLS. Kaye looks to be ready for the move. Not to mention Henry and even Adekugbe, both of whom can play at MLS levels when healthy.

 

1

So you want a majority of our good players abroad to come back home and get stuck in the MLS?

[Grizzly]

11 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Probably firing Paul Stalteri. 

Why fire Stalteri? The U17 results were not good but the U15 team did pretty good under him recently. I am not always a fan of hiring former players especially without a lot of coaching experience but Stalteri seems like a player who would probably make a good coach.

[Grizzly]

I agree with Mat about increasing the quota though I think it would need to be more gradual than he is suggesting and I am not sure it is legal to mandate who a team starts. However, the US is doing precisely this in the MLS by having the quota high enough that teams have to start a certain number of American players and in fact even Canadian teams have to start a certain number of American players. The CSA lowered the quota to rock bottom because the teams were losing but they need to be slowly raising it to make sure the Canadian teams are doing everything they can to develop Canadian players and not just going for the cheaper option of American players. The goal has to be that eventually whatever rule the Americans have for Canadian players on their teams, we have for American players on our teams so if most Canadian players count as international in the US the American players should not be domestic here.

[jpg75]

3 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

And a quota would lower the level of play. It's a double-edged sword. As we will see with the CPL, leagues need to decide between foreign quality and domestic minutes. The Irish League has almost entirely domestic players and it sucks, doesn't draw, and has gotten worse at development over time. The Belgian League doesn't have a domestic quota and has 60% foreign players (up from around 40% fifteen years ago)...which is the highest of the European leagues outside of the EPL. Belgium is currently in a golden generation and export 5-10 battle-tested players every year to the top leagues.

Belgium is in a golden generation because of demographic forces, not because of foreign player quota changes or youth coaching etc. or any other concocted story to make people in the Belgian FA think they had any thing to do with it.

Starting in the late 80's and accelerating in the 90's-2000's, Belgium allowed a significant number of immigrants into their country, which swelled the pop. approx. 10% in 15 years even with a sub-replacement birth rate. Some of those immigrants were young kids, others were young adults who had kids in the 90's. Relative to other European countries Belgium has seen a slower tapering at the bottom in their demographic pyramid.

Anyways, point is when you have more young players (or not as much of a relative drop) it increases competition and you get better players.

[matty]

4 hours ago, canta15 said:

So you want a majority of our good players abroad to come back home and get stuck in the MLS?

Not at all. I just want to secure that Canadians will be playing in MLS and am actually shocked this is such a controversial position given that this is meant to be a Canadian fan forum.

[jpg75]

For some reason it always seems to be Whitecaps fans that are against Canadian quotas. Most TFC fans are for it, some are against...can't think of any Impact fans against it. 

Always the argument being that there are no Canadians good enough. Well, if you don't give them the playing time they'll never develop!

[dyslexic nam]

At the end of the day, that is the point - not to buy up all existing CanCon from abroad, but to invest in the necessary development infrastructure to bring more skilled kids through the pipeline. So maybe no quota starting tomorrow, but a known schedule of increasing domestic player quotas that lets clubs do the right level of development work or suffer the consequences.  

The whole reason for the CanCon idea is to encourage/force development.  If all a club is doing is overspending to buy existing quality, they are missing the point.

[Ansem]

I'm all for the CSA imposing some kind of quotas on MLS Canadian teams. Our biggest problem is depth and this mentality of letting those 3 clubs do whatever they want must end.