General Discussion on CMNT

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If anything, you seem bothered by the other side of the argument, considering the way my comment triggered your sarcastic remark. 

I'm not bothered by it. I think it's dumb.

The comment I originally responded to had a sarcastic remark of its own that implied you were taking the same stance that you're now claiming not to. ("At least Davies didn't get injured.....oh wait.")

Either way, I think it's ridiculous to not want our soccer players to play soccer. A very real argument could be made against the number of games players are subjected to in general these days (especially with compacted COVID schedules), but wanting them to skip the Gold Cup because our continental championship "isn't important" is silly at best.

 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

So while we area all dislocating our shoulders clapping ourselves on the back for being doom sayers...where is the hate for the guys who were crying about Arfield skipping camps???  Wouldnt the same reasoning for why people wanting our best to skip the gold cup apply to him??  He catches shit, but then you guys dont want our best players to go and actually play games against decent competition??  

I've listened to the whining about CSA are pricks, idiots etc for not having enough games, we need more games, play better competition, get team used to high pressure road games, develop team chemistry etc etc ad nauseum.  And now we dont want our players to play in them......ugghhh.   Well the guys that are going to play in WCQ need to play together, or at least a large % of them.  Or else we are just throwing together a bunch of guys in the fall and we'll fail again...and again.  SOme guys skip, some guys are worried about preseason club situation stuff, fine we dont need to cry about that.  But going with a C team of CPL and college guys and getting our asses handed to us isnt helping anything.  You might as well tie one hand behind Herdmans back.  

Yeah...it's just a matter of calculated risk. Some people didn't want to take the risk, fine. Others believe it was a risk worth taking.

Apparently the American players like Pulisic and others wanted a break, didn't they? Our players who showed up didn't want a break. As much as it's down to the coach, it's also down to the players. I won't blame Davies for wanting to play or David (or Arfield for that matter) wanting to sit out. 

[El Hombre]

2 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So while we area all dislocating our shoulders clapping ourselves on the back for being doom sayers...where is the hate for the guys who were crying about Arfield skipping camps???  Wouldnt the same reasoning for why people wanting our best to skip the gold cup apply to him??  He catches shit, but then you guys dont want our best players to go and actually play games against decent competition??  

I've listened to the whining about CSA are pricks, idiots etc for not having enough games, we need more games, play better competition, get team used to high pressure road games, develop team chemistry etc etc ad nauseum.  And now we dont want our players to play in them......ugghhh.   Well the guys that are going to play in WCQ need to play together, or at least a large % of them.  Or else we are just throwing together a bunch of guys in the fall and we'll fail again...and again.  SOme guys skip, some guys are worried about preseason club situation stuff, fine we dont need to cry about that.  But going with a C team of CPL and college guys and getting our asses handed to us isnt helping anything.  You might as well tie one hand behind Herdmans back.  

Also, further to that, if I remember correctly most were worried about our top players getting chopped down by the brutes from Martinique and Haiti.

Davies - Injured in training.  Larin and Akinola - Injured against the US.

Ergo, let's stop training and playing top teams.

Fact of the matter: shit happens.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, RS said:

I'm not bothered by it. I think it's dumb.

The comment I originally responded to had a sarcastic remark of its own that implied you were taking the same stance that you're now claiming not to. ("At least Davies didn't get injured.....oh wait.")

Either way, I think it's ridiculous to not want our soccer players to play soccer. A very real argument could be made against the number of games players are subjected to in general these days (especially with compacted COVID schedules), but wanting them to skip the Gold Cup because our continental championship "isn't important" is silly at best.

 

Yeah I am not convinced you aren't bothered by it lol

[El Hombre]

3 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Whereas we will get to play in the Gold cup in every edition irrespective.

Not true.  We qualified for this one through Nations League.

[toontownman]

Absolutely gutted for Ayo. So sad. 

I don't expect we will call anyone else. Akindele is the only likely option but I would rather he stays put and gets minutes while he can at Orlando.

[Free kick]

47 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

 

I've listened to the whining about CSA are pricks, idiots etc for not having enough games, we need more games, play better competition, get team used to high pressure road games, develop team chemistry etc etc ad nauseum.  And now we dont want our players to play in them......ugghhh.   Well the guys that are going to play in WCQ need to play together, or at least a large % of them.  Or else we are just throwing together a bunch of guys in the fall and we'll fail again...and again.  SOme guys skip, some guys are worried about preseason club situation stuff, fine we dont need to cry about that.  But going with a C team of CPL and college guys and getting our asses handed to us isnt helping anything.  You might as well tie one hand behind Herdmans back.  

I would certainly not be one of those who always criticized CSA for not arranging enough freindlies.  And you can check my posts over the past 20 years.    Friendlies have value;  no doubt!.  For Preparation, chemistry etc etc.  But i found that looking back at the whole picture of 30 years, this notion of lack of friendlies got overblown into a convenient excuse for lack of success.   Even in the WCQ cycles when we played a tons of friendlies against top opposition, the WCQ results were not noticably different.  The real reason for not having greater success is talent.   Gimme any day a very talented side that has barely played together over side made up entirely of second  division talent and that played a gazillion friendlies and collectively done the vulcan mindmeld.  In other words cohension and chemistry alone, will only get you so far.  
 

now, in 2021, we have a talented side that played half dozen competive matches already. Or shall i say, had a talented side?  

Edited July 20, 2021 by Free kick

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Not true.  We qualified for this one through Nations League.

You're technically right, but the Gold Cup is basically guaranteed for us every cycle with qualification.

His core argument is that we should prioritize the more important thing (WCQ) by sitting players out for the less important thing (Gold Cup). It's not an unreasonable position, but comments like this....

18 minutes ago, RS said:

I think it's dumb.

wanting them to skip the Gold Cup because our continental championship "isn't important" is silly at best.

and this...

22 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

But going with a C team of CPL and college guys and getting our asses handed to us isnt helping anything.  

are kind of mischaracterizing the argument to make it seem more ridiculous than it actually is. I don't recall anyone saying we should call up a CPL team (perhaps I am mistaken though) and nobody said Gold Cup "isn't important", it is just relatively unimportant compared to WCQ, which everyone would agree on I am pretty sure.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Obinna

[N1ckbr0wn]

Once again, a little positive spin on Larins injury

 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Absolutely gutted for Ayo. So sad. 

I don't expect we will call anyone else. Akindele is the only likely option but I would rather he stays put and gets minutes while he can at Orlando.

It's a tough call on Akindele. Yes it is good for him to get minutes with Dike out, but it's also a chance for him to get minutes with Canada. One could argue that's more important than getting his club minutes in. He'll likely be behind Dike either way come September, so I would probably sacrifice the club minutes now for the national team if my goal was to get selected for the Ocho squad. 

[RS]

19 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I am not convinced you aren't bothered by it lol

Good for you.

I'm not convinced you're not sitting on the fence depending on which way the wind blows.

[Bison44]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

are kind of mischaracterizing the argument to make it seem less ridiculous than it actually is. I don't recall anyone saying we should call up a CPL team (perhaps I am mistaken though) and nobody said Gold Cup "isn't important", it is just relatively unimportant compared to WCQ, which everyone would agree on I am pretty sure.

If you are not calling the regular guys who are you calling???   If AYO, Larin sit, well u have to sit Cav then too right, half the board would take him over Larin anyways.  Sooooooo who then??  Ummm.....Brym, Amanda....Bair???

And well hell, we cant take Vitoria, he is more important to the team than Larin...if he goes there is no replacement for him. So I guess we dip into our deep pool then...or maybe to CPL...Didic, Zator...mb waterman??   

[El Hombre]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

You're technically right, but the Gold Cup is basically guaranteed for us every cycle with qualification.

Not if we keep downgrading inconsequential games to prepare for "more important ones."

[Obinna]

Just now, Bison44 said:

If you are not calling the regular guys who are you calling???   If AYO, Larin sit, well u have to sit Cav then too right, half the board would take him over Larin anyways.  Sooooooo who then??  Ummm.....Brym, Amanda....Bair???

And well hell, we cant take Vitoria, he is more important to the team than Larin...if he goes there is no replacement for him. So I guess we dip into our deep pool then...or maybe to CPL...Didic, Zator...mb waterman??   

There were no CPL guys on the preliminary roster, was there?

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Not if we keep downgrading inconsequential games to prepare for "more important ones."

That's projecting the current argument onto Nations League. If the same voices are calling for rotation for that then we'll revisit.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Obinna

[Bison44]

Just now, Obinna said:

There were no CPL guys on the preliminary roster, was there?

FFS....who are you calling then if you werent going to call Ayo Larin or Cav because u are worried about them picking up injuries??  Or i guess if you are only now worried about them now that they have happened thats another story.  

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

FFS....who are you calling then if you werent going to call Ayo Larin or Cav because u are worried about them picking up injuries??  Or i guess if you are only now worried about them now that they have happened thats another story.  

Here's my attempt to defend this side of the argument:

- rest core euro guys coming off long season (Davies, David, Larin, Hutchinson, Arfield, Vitoria, Eustaquio, Borjan, Kennedy)

- call the MLS contingent, including Cavallini

- call the guys you want cap tie (Jebbison, Flores)

- introduce the fringe Euro guys you want to build depth in the program (Paton, Elva)

Final roster

GK: Max, Dane, Leutwiler

D Miller, Waterman, Gutierrez, Singh, Johnston, Laryea, Brault-Guillard, Bassong

M: Kaye, Oso, Fraser, Paton, Baldisimo, Piette, Priso

F: Ayo, Cavallini, Akindele, Elva, Buchanan, Schaffleburg

Again, like I have said I don't mind us calling the best team to win Gold Cup. It's a risk worth taking because I think we could win it. Am I fussed with certain players not wanting to take the risk? No. Do I support the argument that we should go try because injury is just a part of the game and it's an important trophy? Yes!

Edited July 20, 2021 by Obinna

[trc2014]

39 minutes ago, N1ckbr0wn said:

Once again, a little positive spin on Larins injury

 

Rollins also initially said that Ayo’s injury was 4-6 weeks.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, RS said:

but wanting them to skip the Gold Cup because our continental championship "isn't important" is silly at best.

 

why is it silly?  This guy is saying exactly that.  
https://www.si.com/soccer/2021/07/15/gold-cup-issues-usa-mexico-concacaf-copa-america

 

i know, he did not say anyone should skip it (or kept off).  But very many talented players from Concacaf have skipped it in the past and it hasnt hurt their national sides.   See:  Dwight Yorke in 2000.
 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Free kick

[RS]

11 minutes ago, Free kick said:

why is it silly?  This guy is saying exactly that.  
https://www.si.com/soccer/2021/07/15/gold-cup-issues-usa-mexico-concacaf-copa-america

 

i know, he did say anyone should skip it (or kept off).  But very many talented players from Concacaf have skipped it in the past and it hasnt hurt their national sides.   See:  Dwight Yorke in 2000.
 

If it's not important then why bother having it? Just allow the teams to schedule friendlies and be the only continent on the planet that doesn't crown a champion.

If the argument is that the Gold Cup is too frequent then I'm completely on board. It should be held every four years.

But as long as it's being played it should always be taken seriously, especially by a country like Canada that has literally never won anything else.

[Free kick]

31 minutes ago, RS said:

If it's not important then why bother having it? Just allow the teams to schedule friendlies and be the only continent on the planet that doesn't crown a champion.

If the argument is that the Gold Cup is too frequent then I'm completely on board. It should be held every four years.

But as long as it's being played it should always be taken seriously, especially by a country like Canada that has literally never won anything else.

Its all relative.  I am not saying we shouldnt bother attending.    I went to GC matches as you know.  But relative to WCQ, it pales in comparaison.  I used the example of Grand slam event versus an ATP 500 event in tennis to compare WCQ versus GC.

We should bring a good team when its not played during WCQ

Edited July 20, 2021 by Free kick

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, RS said:

If it's not important then why bother having it?

You keep bringing up this straw man but I am not seeing anyone saying it isn't important.

Yes, I liked that we brought a team that could realistically win, especially considering the yanks brought a weakened side. Seemed like a real good opportunity for us, despite the risk of burning certain players out ahead of WCQ. 

The reality is that it's not good for the reputation of the Gold Cup when teams do not take it "seriously". I am fully on board with that.

What I don't get is this faux argument that if you wanted us to rest our big players it means you think Gold Cup is unimportant. Really dishonest to frame it in that way. 

Edit: Like @Free kick is saying. It's relatively unimportant. That doesn't mean it is unimportant in general, which is how you keep framing it by saying things like "why bother having it". 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Obinna

[Redpunkfiddle]

Having spent some time getting accustomed to this participation in late round of WCQ thing, I do understand the impetus to strategize over who to include in this cycle of the Gold Cup, with the WCQ being the more important priority.

I still think this team hasn't had the number of matches, experiences, and tests against good competition to put aside the opportunity to play with as many members of the likely starting squad as possible.  The risks were there and they've played out, but I don't fault them for the squad they called.

I also think the US could have been right to do what it did. We aren't the same team, haven't had the same matches (eg Nations League final level). Different calls for different circumstances.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Redpunkfiddle

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

You keep bringing up this straw man but I am not seeing anyone saying it isn't important.

I'm not interested in splitting hairs for the sake of argument here. Especially in light of this:

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The reality is that it's not good for the reputation of the Gold Cup when teams do not take it "seriously". I am fully on board with that.

So it's not good for the reputation of the Gold Cup when teams don't take it seriously, but I'm also dishonest for framing it it similarly?

There are posts on here stating the Gold Cup is not important, although maybe in those exact words. The tennis example @Free kick gave, comparing a Grand Slam to an ATP 500 event, is exactly what I mean. ATP 500 is the fourth-tier of tournaments, and is overlooked by elite players outside of their mandatory minimum annual participation.

If comparing the Gold Cup an ATP 500 event is ok (and I'm assuming by your "thanks" on that post that it is), then how can anyone then take issue with me saying that those same people are calling it unimportant?

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

If comparing the Gold Cup an ATP 500 event is ok (and I'm assuming by your "thanks" on that post that it is), then how can anyone then take issue with me saying that those same people are calling it unimportant?

Because they are literally telling you otherwise.

25 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Its all relative.