Canada vs Jamaica Post Match Thread

[Fastfeet2]

13 minutes ago, DannyFromToronto23 said:

When i saw  larin on it I knew it would be difficult to score 

When I saw the defence I knew it would be difficult to stop them from scoring. 

 

 

 

 

[SpecialK]

10 minutes ago, The Beaver said:

The only reason that OZ should not have started Larin this evening is because he'd not had the chance to build chemistry with this squad over the first three games.  These tournaments are ALL about building chemistry as quickly as possible, and growing from game to game. Look at the Yanks vs. El Salvador yesterday. They won, yeah, but they looked so disjointed at times, and that was because they made SO many changes to the squad.

Larin and Cavallini did not finish well tonight. I am still not seeing anything significant that says one is better than the other. Larin came a hell of a lot closer to scoring tonight than Cavallini, to be fair. And while Cavallini's hold up play was a bit better than Larin's tonight, I remain unconvinced that Lucas is our automatic starter up top.

A few of you have already touched on this, but what BOTH of these guys need is a strike partner, at minimum somebody playing directly behind them that can give them service or play off of them. If Hutch was available, then I'd have played him instead of Tiebert--genius, I know--and give Arfield a bit more license to push up in support of Larin/Cavallini. 

Overall: We showed some good signs this tournament, with a core group performing very well indeed. Arfield, Piette, Hoillet, De Jong, Borjan were especially good. Davies and Petrasso looked really good at times, with Davies falling off as the tournament wore on. The CBs were solid, if not plodding. 

Big problem tonight, if we are to be honest with ourselves: This is the first game we've played in a long time where we were asked to break down a team that bunkered and countered for 90 minutes. We are getting better, and some of the chances we created were solid, but we still do not have the quality to break down teams. Having said that, we now have SOME guys who are capable of figuring this out, and once they develop chemistry with each other will start to see better results.

Sucks to lose, but I like what I saw this tournament. 

 

I agree with most with what you said, but I disagree with Hutch. I love Hutch and think the World of him. But he's not the fix we needed. Hutch is a more skilled and smarter Piette/ defensive midfielder.  Arfield is a solid midfielder and has shown he can do a lot more then what does at burnley. But we need a solid playmaking midfielder. We have Osorio but he's a poor mans playmaking midfielder (  shows times of brilliance and skill but then boom he's  inconsistent and doesn't shoot open shots, I believe he's working on that). The player we needed, he plays in Italy, I believe for a team called Atalanta B.C. I think he's #4 .... I can't remember his name .... Hahaha

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, SpecialK said:

Larin - 20-21 games with Canada 5 goals ( plays alone up top)

Larin - 76 MLS games and 39 goals ( normally plays with another Striker)

Cavallini - 6 games with Canada 0 goals ( plays alone up top) 

Cavallini - this year 14 games with Penarol and 5 goals ( plays with another striker)

Interesting .... 

im curious why our strikers have a hard time scoring ????

Solution: they should play together ??????????

[DannyFromToronto23]

James should be in a better league in Europe or even mls 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

From the pregame thread:

6 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

The bookmakers are putting us as slight favorites to win - not heavy favourites. People here are way too confident. 1-2 loss and heartbreak is my prediction. Prove me wrong #CanMNT!!!!

. Heatbreak it was.

 

@JamboAl what was it you said at Grace O'Malleys?

[CUJO]

larin is trash

[SpecialK]

4 minutes ago, CUJO said:

larin is trash

 You're an idiot ! 

[Macksam]

45 minutes ago, DannyFromToronto23 said:

James should be in a better league in Europe or even mls 

BSC Young Boys would be a nice fit.

[Macksam]

31 minutes ago, CUJO said:

larin is trash

Not to single you out CUJO, but come on you'll, let's stop this.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think too many here are second guessing everything, and it makes no sense. If one play had gone another way, we'd be having another conversation. 

For example:

-The Larin header has to be on goal, at least. As does the Cavallini. We probably deserved to have one more, go to penalties. Larin seems listless, but gets chances. He does not engage the defenders, so he does not distract them or open up spaces properly for those in behind. Cavallini is more engaged and moves better, and battles harder, but does not look as much of a goal scorer. Until someone takes the striker role by scoring, we have to rotate. Includes AJH, IMO, Tesho, don't care. First to be our scorer, stays on the pitch. Or, failing that, if we can win with a certain striker who does not score, he plays. No matter who. But for now, it has to be a rotation to find one to click.

-In any case, we lost "shape", as Floro called it, by having only Piette in DM, as Tiebert was higher up than Bernier would normally be. So we were exposed, and then, the Jamaicans out-paced us and out fought us around the edges of the box. We were uncomfortable defensively.

-I don't think we can over-emphasize our late dominance. They were sitting back and let us, not a good judge. It was not us imposing ourselves.

-I think the Davies start was an error, in retrospect. They were ready to absorb him, made him look like a kid again, and then, he did not take them on, he seemed intimidated. We have to be smarter with him, the group stage teams were not ready for him and don't have that speed, Jamaica does. In any case, as others here, would have been nice to see at least 10 m of Larin and Cavallini together, taking off Davies for the latter m. 60.

-Kind of tournament that makes you want to play for something real as soon as we can, to keep going.

 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, ReedOnTheGrand said:

It was brought up a lot tonight since Jamaica had been abusing balls over the top to their fast forwards all tournament and he should have adapted to that. Btw sorry about the snark, angry after the game today. 

Me too my friend, me too.

[kungfucious]

a lot of u are citing individuals for this and that and concluding that this was a successful tourney b/c they got out of the group.

pt1: i say bollocks to that.  i agree that 2wks ago, this would be a fair goal, but seeing how poor the opposition was (all 4 matches), im angry as hell it ends here. this match vs jamaica was there for the taking! honestly, i was confused the whole match if jamaica were deliberately sitting back or if they were forced to by our lads. i was totally expecting a sucker punch but they never brought it. (that 2nd half strike doesnt count. it was a one-off like jr's).

whatever... if u cant win a match when u create and out chance more than ure opponent like tn, u deserve to lose. thats another conclusion i made. jamaica didnt win tn, canada lost!

pt2: to all u guys comparing cavallini's miss to larin's: it wasnt even close. larin's was from the 6 off a set piece (a corner?) whereas cavallini's was off a rainbow from the back. further, cavallini's was much harder to convert! enough with the larin excuses, u make oj's defense team look pathetic.

pt3: if jamaica cleverly countered for the win, i would applaud them for the superior strategy, but more accurately, they converted 2/3 chances that fell to them. it wasnt for great off the ball play or some fantastic individual effort, it was simply them playing not to lose and canada dully fought to claim that role. all i need to do is repeat what somebody else said already: borjan had a touch on #2. if only he was able to touch it stronger, that tips it wide. on #1, the guy side footed it from about the 18 b/c he didnt have the confidence to strike it clean. he skied it, as all balls would from a first touch out there, but was saved by the crossbar.

combine that with larin's miss and it woulda/shoulda been 1-1 at the half instead of 0-2 shortly after.

pt4: critique vs all u cheerleaders: STOP IT!   this was not a moral victory, a sign of good things to come, a positive learning experience... this was a missed opportunity. dammit, why cant u guys be critical instead of being apologists?!? expect more, demand more and when it doesnt get delivered, ask why! im sooo angry i can almost ignore why my balls are hurting so bad right now. if ude care, ude know the feeling.

(sorry for long rant)

[Weather]

That was a winnable game. Very frustrating. We were the better technical side and had plenty of chances. Jamaica gameplanned well... they knew their best chance was to beat us with pace, and sit back and absorb our pressure. That's what ended up happening. 

I'm with most on this board - didn't like Larin starting, clearly there were chemistry issues with him slotting into the team after being away. Still baffling how he doesn't convert chances at the international level. Really hope he can get it together in the next few years. Also not sure why James didn't start - yes, he wasn't very composed in the Honduras game, but he needed to be out there from the start with his pace.

Still, so many positives to take from these 4 games:

-Davies breakout tournament. What a raw talent. Can't wait to see him develop. 16! 

-Two results against Hex/WC teams. Also understated that those games were in the heat of Texas, with hostile crowds. 

-Less hoofball. Huge improvements in passing accuracy/playing out of pressure. Credit to OZ here.

-Standout players in Piette (seems to be growing into the "pitbull" holding mid role well), Arfield (probably our most complete player right now), Hoilett (clearly capable of taking on defenders).

Things to work on/what we still need:

-Set piece defending! Better in the Jamaica game but unacceptable in the group stage.

-Strikers to contribute goals (not a new problem for us)

-learning how to break down teams (as we keep getting better at holding the ball, teams will give us more respect and we're going to have to figure out how to score this way)

-

Overall though I can't wait until the next cycle begins. This generation has its best moments ahead of it. It's unrealistic to think we should be among CONCACAF's elites yet. When you only play ~a dozen games a year progress comes in steps, not bounds.

[Soro17]

I'm not sure he is the answer, but David Edgar was on Vancouver radio this morning. It sounds like he is getting ready to ramp up training and should be back in the fall. I like what he brings more than Vitoria or Jakovic. He is a bit of a forgotten man these days, but I think we will see him again. 

[The Beaver]

58 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

a lot of u are citing individuals for this and that and concluding that this was a successful tourney b/c they got out of the group.

pt1: i say bollocks to that.  i agree that 2wks ago, this would be a fair goal, but seeing how poor the opposition was (all 4 matches), im angry as hell it ends here. this match vs jamaica was there for the taking! honestly, i was confused the whole match if jamaica were deliberately sitting back or if they were forced to by our lads. i was totally expecting a sucker punch but they never brought it. (that 2nd half strike doesnt count. it was a one-off like jr's).

whatever... if u cant win a match when u create and out chance more than ure opponent like tn, u deserve to lose. thats another conclusion i made. jamaica didnt win tn, canada lost!

pt2: to all u guys comparing cavallini's miss to larin's: it wasnt even close. larin's was from the 6 off a set piece (a corner?) whereas cavallini's was off a rainbow from the back. further, cavallini's was much harder to convert! enough with the larin excuses, u make oj's defense team look pathetic.

pt3: if jamaica cleverly countered for the win, i would applaud them for the superior strategy, but more accurately, they converted 2/3 chances that fell to them. it wasnt for great off the ball play or some fantastic individual effort, it was simply them playing not to lose and canada dully fought to claim that role. all i need to do is repeat what somebody else said already: borjan had a touch on #2. if only he was able to touch it stronger, that tips it wide. on #1, the guy side footed it from about the 18 b/c he didnt have the confidence to strike it clean. he skied it, as all balls would from a first touch out there, but was saved by the crossbar.

combine that with larin's miss and it woulda/shoulda been 1-1 at the half instead of 0-2 shortly after.

pt4: critique vs all u cheerleaders: STOP IT!   this was not a moral victory, a sign of good things to come, a positive learning experience... this was a missed opportunity. dammit, why cant u guys be critical instead of being apologists?!? expect more, demand more and when it doesnt get delivered, ask why! im sooo angry i can almost ignore why my balls are hurting so bad right now. if ude care, ude know the feeling.

(sorry for long rant)

I feel your pain, but those of us taking the long (and more rational) view are not apologists! As much as we want to win these games and these tournaments, we've not forgotten the context, namely that we have a new manager with a new strategy and lots of young players AND this is only the fricking Gold Cup! Of course we WANT better results. But having a hissy fit and "demanding" a better performance is naive, as if any of the players or coaching staff tried to do anything less than win.

[The Beaver]

11 minutes ago, Soro17 said:

I'm not sure he is the answer, but David Edgar was on Vancouver radio this morning. It sounds like he is getting ready to ramp up training and should be back in the fall. I like what he brings more than Vitoria or Jakovic. He is a bit of a forgotten man these days, but I think we will see him again. 

Love Edgar, but if we want pace at CB, he ain't the solution.

[The Beaver]

2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

I agree with most with what you said, but I disagree with Hutch. I love Hutch and think the World of him. But he's not the fix we needed. Hutch is a more skilled and smarter Piette/ defensive midfielder.  Arfield is a solid midfielder and has shown he can do a lot more then what does at burnley. But we need a solid playmaking midfielder. We have Osorio but he's a poor mans playmaking midfielder (  shows times of brilliance and skill but then boom he's  inconsistent and doesn't shoot open shots, I believe he's working on that). The player we needed, he plays in Italy, I believe for a team called Atalanta B.C. I think he's #4 .... I can't remember his name .... Hahaha

Hutch's distribution is remarkable, and with both feet, which means he can make the sort of incisive pass that enables us to break down teams. But what I am suggesting here is that Hutch would free Arfield up to be that creative playmaker you describe. And, until Crisante pledges his allegiance to the Maple Leaf, we don't have anyone nearly as good as Hutch in this role. 

[Keegan]

I had a bigger problem with teibert starting than larin. What did he add? As others said we didnt enough cover with him out there and could really have used bernier 

[dyslexic nam]

After a night of sleep and a calmer head, I still stand by my thoughts last night.

Cav may not have lit it up all tourney, but Larin did nothing - last night or prior - to justify the starting spot.  And Cav seemed to work better with the whole team during the run of play.  At some point - maybe against Jamaica in September, I really think they need to be started together.  Losing someone in the mid would be risky, but it is worth trying both up front.  The potential is there to be really threatening, and with Cav's work rate I think a high press might mitigate some of the impact of depleting the midfield by 1.

I can't help but think that Bernier would have helped in the middle with a more defensive role than Tiebert, who also didn't justify the start.

Off-nights by two of our most creative players - Arfield and Davies.  Both had their poorest games of the tournaments at precisely the wrong time. 

The one big change I didn't call for when the starting IX was announced was starting with James as a CB, but to me that is the kind of thing that OZ should know.  People can talk about the benefit of hindsight and all that, but a bit of foresight is what you want in a coach.  And the need for a pacy CB to deal with Jamaica's speed on the counter is the kind of basic personnel decision that a good coach gets right.  As soon as he took the pitch, it was clear that James would have made a difference.

Overall, I am still pretty mixed about this GC.  Yeah, we made the QF, and getting out of our group for the first time in a while is good.  But we should have made it to the semis based on the quality of opposition last night, and in the end (despite respectable draws against Hon and CR) we only actually beat FG.  I like the style of play that is emerging, but 1 win in 4 games is not the kind result that prove we have yet turned a corner. 

[hodgkiss]

Kinda blows because Jamaica is a very simple team. The run and defend. Because of this, I wouldn't be trying to cross balls into the box because we wouldn't have an advantage. If it was against Mexico (a much shorter team) the crosses might be a bit easier to get on the end of but we would be owned in the midfield.

You could see that when we played through the middle and on the ground that it troubled Jamaica. They were quite happy just to put 11 guys behind the ball and then countering with a long ball to a sprinter. It was such a one dimensional team that I believe we completely over estimated Jamaica's ability - and that's what got us into trouble.

I also think that Larin is pretty one dimensional himself. Cavillini has been more of a complete forward throughout this tournament and brings a lot more to the table from a team perspective - which is perhaps why we had success in the group stage. 

Anyway, lots of positives. I am happy the team did well. I am happy that Zambrano got some results and so quickly with this team. As some others have mentioned, I am looking forward to seeing more from these guys. Good job Canada - onward and upward!

[Keegan]

What positives can you even take when we don't play a meaningful match in another 2 years? It's crazy.

like yea we turned a corner but we need that to last 2 years... very disheartening. This match was huge and we should have won. 

All we can do is hope for revenge in September and 2 matches a window. And when we have to face minnows, as we will inevitably due to this setback, time to absolutely bury them with our new attack.

[theaub]

1 minute ago, Keegan said:

What positives can you even take when we don't play a meaningful match in another 2 years? It's crazy.

like yea we turned a corner but we need that to last 2 years... very disheartening. This match was huge and we should have won. 

Even if we won last night that's also my takeaway from this tournament.

All the progress etc means absolutely nothing.  Its no different from 2007 where we didn't play another truly meaningful match (sorry SVG) for 14 months.  

The next time we play a competitive match we could very well be in the second season of a domestic league. 

Also IIRC we lost FIFA points from this tournament, so we are doomed to the 'between Zimbabwe and Palestine' jokes for the next two years at a minimum sigh,

[Fastfeet2]

Too bad we didnt have Doneil available. Would have been a good game for his abilities. 

[DigzTFC]

This was a frustrating one because Jamaica was very one dimensional.  They could barely complete a pass.  We were killed by speed and frankly that's why Jakovic and Vitoria are out of MLS.  They can't handle the speed.

Overall, this was very positive given that it sets the style of play fans can adopt, Canada can adopt over several coaches and players can adopt.  What may come out of this is more scouting of our players from clubs and we can attract more players sitting on the fence.  This is extremely positive.

It also became clear (IMO) that Hoilett needs to play centrally to be effective. 

The other positives we learned is who can play this style and who cannot keep up with the speed.  Our two central backs need upgrading, and we need 1 more competent central midfielder.  I think this is achievable.  I'd also like Milan Borjan to clean up some of mistakes.  He dropped the ball at least 1-2 times a game unnecessarily.

[BearcatSA]

We had the chances to score.  We didn't.  We lost.

There.  Post match summary.  Done