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7 minutes ago, matty said:

...maybe it's time to realize the cpl isn't here to replace mls because the mls is doing fuck all but rather meant to fill a void...

Interesting take from John Herdman about CanPL on the Sportsnet website:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/herdman-gives-hope-cpl-players-aspiring-canadas-national-team/

...And while Herdman admits it will be difficult for young CPL players to make the direct jump into the national team, he makes the point that it’s not about where you start, but rather where you end up. The journey along the way can prove to be invaluable, too.

“What the CPL will provide is that springboard for young players to move to higher leagues, but it also might produce an absolute diamond in the rough. … For these young players in the CPL, from ages 17 to 23, we’re really interested in them, especially if they’re playing every week, and doing well and have an interesting profile,” Herdman said.

“The CPL is a huge positive, and I’m hoping to see after the first season if a couple of players can make the move overseas or to a higher level. You’d hope to see that, and I think that’s what this league can do, as well as push into our Olympic squad, our youth under-20 squad, and maybe push into our senior senor national team.”

He doesn't seem to see it as a rival or replacement to MLS as some posters do on here but as a springboard to it and the other "higher leagues" where CMNT players tend to play.

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Not to sound like a big shot but $75 a YEAR is peanuts. You buy 4 beers at one game and it's 50$ ( and then you have to wait in line to piss it all away). Let's support this league as much as possible

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12 hours ago, Watchmen said:

 

1) The CSA tried to form in a league again in..the early 2000s?  With that CPSL (I forget the exact abbreviations).  Never got it off the ground at all. 

It was dubbed the "CUSL", which stood for the Canadian United Soccer League. At one point it looked like the league was going to get off the ground while staying in conjunction with the then-called "A-League", so that it would effectively be it's own league/division but still played the American teams, but I believe that the Toronto Lynx owners ultimately were never sold on the concept and helped to squash it, which is one reason (of many) when few Lynx supporters who were supporting the club for the sake of its role in developing Canadian players were heartbroken when it was revealed a couple of years later that MLSE wanted to get a team in MLS, which effectively killed the Lynx as the top soccer ticket in town.

The CPSL, I believe, was the extremely short-lived Canadian developmental league in 1983 which lasted half a season (it was also a league that I never even heard about at the time, even though I was playing youth soccer at a high level and regularly attending Toronto Blizzard games).

My thoughts on this topic as a whole: I think it is a fair enough opinion that MLS in Canada hasn't developed as many players as we'd have hoped, and we were all pissed off that Canadian players used to be treated as internationals on US teams (for the most part this is no longer the case, and I think this is where we can actually thank the existence of the CPL because it allowed Vic to put leverage on the MLS to quit the BS south of the border - I don't think the timing of this change was a coincidence at all).

But I don't agree with the narrative that MLS in Canada has been bad for soccer in this country, that it hasn't been beneficial but instead detrimental, hasn't developed any players (or as many players) to a higher level than they otherwise would have done if all three teams had stayed in the A-league (now USL) or that if it wasn't for the Canadian teams getting into MLS, we would instead have a fully-fledged Canadian league of our own of MLS quality. I'm inclined to think that we'd be worse off than where we currently are without MLS, far far worse off - not just in terms of player development but also stadiums situation, the overall level of popularity of the game, media coverage and yes, investors in the CPL.

We all want the CPL to happen and to be a success and we all think it is needed, but it's not an either/or between the CPL or MLS where if you support one, you have to hate the other. In my view the venom being aimed at the Canadian MLS clubs (or in turn its fans) here should be reserved for V-Cup matches, rather than between Canadian soccer supporters who presumably all want the same end goal for Canadian soccer.

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12 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Seems like everyone is forgetting Edmonton Ottawa and NASL.   If MLS showed that the biggest and best CDN markets could support soccer, but we already knew that from the original NASL.  The later CDN NASL clubs showed that you dont have to be toronto or vancouver and still run a club.  To me that was the missing link...Montreal and Vancouver had teams for years and could support a club already.  MLS poached our crown jewels but thats as far as they were ever going to go.  And they were never exactly even handed with CDN players..even now.  But when Ottawa and Edmonton proved there was an appetite for soccer in smaller markets outside of MLS,  I'm sure the idea of the CPL really started to gain traction.   

I bash MLS for plenty of things but 100% agree we wouldnt be here without them.  And I dont even mind if the 3 big clubs never join CPL.  But I am sure glad that pro soccer has spread across the country, MLS was never going to do that, we had to do it ourselves.  Kudos to all the supporters and especially in Calgary, WPG and the Halifax that now have their own team to follow.  Lets hope this first year is a good one and teams from Quebec and Sask quickly get on board next year.

Now that’s a post this loving MLS fan can truly agree with well said.

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3 hours ago, Winnipeg Fury said:

 

5 starters in MLS......after having Canadian tams in that league for 12 years..........and ceding our biggest markets to a foreign league.......sorry folks.......that's is GARBAGE.  That is why we have CPL. 

CSL was around for 6 years and put MLS player development to shame.

No doubt it has made the game more popular, but in terms of Canadian player development, it has been an absolute BUST.

Yup the CSL put us in the World Cup oh wait lol, more like the old NASL of the 70’s and 80’s which was the highest level league ever in North America before the MLS came about in 1996 helped produce players that qualified Canada to the 1986 World Cup. However, I’m sure it would have helped if the CSL would have continued but unfortunately it didn’t , but the last time Canada qualified for a World Cup was with players who had played many  years in the old NASL which was at a level close to the MLS today and it was a North American League like the MLS. Remember the CPL will be a huge help to Canadian soccer hopefully it survives and from the looks of it I see no reason why in this soccer climate in Canada it shouldn’t. However, the MLS since the League came to Canada in 2007 has helped Canadian soccer immensely and will continue doing it with the CPL around aswell.

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2 hours ago, matty said:

maybe it's time to realize the cpl isn't here to replace mls because the mls is doing fuck all but rather meant to fill a void.

Exactly this. MLS has done a ton for Canadian soccer, but there is still a lot that needs to be done. CPL will help, tremendously.

Having both (hopefully) healthy for years will propel the sport to new heights in this country. It's not an either/or scenario, we'll thrive with, and because of, both league.

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20 minutes ago, admin said:

There is also the new rules regarding Canadians as locals in MLS (unless that changed again).  As those kids become eligible,  and with CanPL in place, MLS will become a very important part of the puzzle. 

Yup pretty hard now for a young Canadian player coming up to not be recognized as a domestic right across the league, on Canadian or American teams as long as they spent some time at a MLS academy or a recognized academy like a Sigma for example.

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9 minutes ago, 1996 said:

Yup pretty hard now for a young Canadian player coming up to not be recognized as a domestic right across the league, on Canadian or American teams as long as they spent some time at a MLS academy or a recognized academy like a Sigma for example.

It still irks me that it took the threat of CPL to make this happen, but it definitely does represent progress and a very positive development for Canadian footy.  I have definitely bitched about the past inequity of the "domestic" rule, but I also recognize the value in having 3 Canadian teams in MLS - not so much for what they have done to date (some of those claims I take with a bit of a grain of salt) but for what the clubs will do for Canadian footy in the future. 

I have no doubt that MLS is on a trajectory to be a top global league in the future.  Garber, despite being a dick to Canada for much of his tenure, has helped it grow into a solid thirdish tier league (not meant as a backhanded compliment - that is no small accomplishment) and put it on course to continue its progression on a global scale.  It may never rival EPL/SPL/Bundesliga, but I absolutely see it growing to rival the next tier of leagues.  And if we can maintain the status quo, having 3 teams in that sort of environment will be a big deal for Canada in the decades to come.  Hopefully the success of CPL will not only provide a broader and deeper player pool of high quality Canadians, but will also allow the CSA to look at mechanisms that would maximize the developmental potential of the three MLS clubs. 

And maybe we will even get to watch those CPL games on TV.

...and  now we are back on topic.

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On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:41 PM, admin said:

There is also the new rules regarding Canadians as locals in MLS (unless that changed again).  As those kids become eligible,  and with CanPL in place, MLS will become a very important part of the puzzle. 

Let's not forget that it took Montagliani threatening MLS to de-sanction the 3 teams.

I'm infinitely grateful for MLS showing the businesses in Canada that there was money to be made in soccer. They showed us the way and that's fantastic.

However, we shouldn't stop there and keep this subservient attitude of just being "reserves league" preached by some (or one person). We are forever grateful but we can build on that, innovate and find new ways to do better while avoiding the pitfalls. I don't have to thank them weekly to be grateful for their contribution. They did their part, now we have to do ours.

Edited by Ansem
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On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 6:01 PM, ted said:

Will the CanPL overtake (and maybe absorb) them someday? Probably. 

To me it comes down to three scenarios in the aforementioned time frame:

  1. MLS becomes a top league, has that lucrative TV/media deal that's worth a billion plus annually and the league pays a minimum of $1,000,000 to its players, becoming a league where top athletes go right away and not something they lull over after college. In that situation, the three Canadian MLS teams aren't going to leave and probably shouldn't imo.
  2. MLS still continues to scrape by as it currently does, no lucrative TV deal and still paying slightly above average white collar salaries to the average player, still causing the domestic player coming out of college to question this as a career decision, thereby not drawing on top domestic athletes. In this scenario, and depending on how much the CPL has grown, the question of the three MLS teams joining up needs to be had if the economics make sense with regards to media, sponsorship and what not.
  3. MLS implodes once the expansion money has dried up. This future is self explanatory. MLS owners will have no other option but join up unless they just want to get out of the soccer game altogether. This scenario is unlikely but considering first generation MLS teams still struggle at the gate and some expansion outfits like the Union have dwindling fanbases, it's entirely possible IMO.
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34 minutes ago, Macksam said:

To me it comes down to three scenarios in the aforementioned time frame:

  1. MLS becomes a top league, has that lucrative TV/media deal that's worth a billion plus annually and the league pays a minimum of $1,000,000 to its players, becoming a league where top athletes go right away and not something they lull over after college. In that situation, the three Canadian MLS teams aren't going to leave and probably shouldn't imo.
  2. MLS still continues to scrape by as it currently does, no lucrative TV deal and still paying slightly above average white collar salaries to the average player, still causing the domestic player coming out of college to question this as a career decision, thereby not drawing on top domestic athletes. In this scenario, and depending on how much the CPL has grown, the question of the three MLS teams joining up needs to be had if the economics make sense with regards to media, sponsorship and what not.
  3. MLS implodes once the expansion money has dried up. This future is self explanatory. MLS owners will have no other option but join up unless they just want to get out of the soccer game altogether. This scenario is unlikely but considering first generation MLS teams still struggle at the gate and some expansion outfits like the Union have dwindling fanbases, it's entirely possible IMO.

I’m betting on, in order of likelihood:

-scenario 2

-scenario 1

-scenario 3

I put 3 last because I really don’t think that MLS is going anywhere. It’s been on an upward trajectory (give or take) for some time now, and it’s pretty well entrenched after 22ish years in operation. 

It may not have an EPL level TV deal, but it’s top few clubs are making money, and viewership and attendance is doing pretty well. 

I think it’s a league at a crossroads though; stick to a silly obsession with ‘parity’ and obscure roster rules (that many of our friends to the south seem to like for some reason) -maintining steady but ultimately middling quality, OR, as the trend seems to indicate (creation of DPs, increasing of DPs per team, creation of TAM etc) realize that Toronto, NY, and LA among others, can and should realize a much larger market share than Columbus or whoever. If they go the latter route, and the disparate quality within the league doesn’t cause too big of a problem, AND they don’t overexpand, the league could really become a top league. So, your scenario 1 comes to pass. Otherwise it’s scenario 2. 

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1 hour ago, Macksam said:

MLS becomes a top league, has that lucrative TV/media deal that's worth a billion plus annually and the league pays a minimum of $1,000,000 to its players, becoming a league where top athletes go right away and not something they lull over after college. In that situation, the three Canadian MLS teams aren't going to leave and probably shouldn't imo.

NHL now stands at $2B until 2021in the US ($200M/ years - $6.4M per team annually) in the US

MLS stands at $90M a year until 2022 ($3.75M per teams) in the US. With the expansion next year, the payment per team goes down.

CPL (I know, I know we don't know for sure) but let's say the $200M is true and after CSA gets paid there's around $150M in fees for CPL according to reports, that's ~US$1.5M per teams but that's going down too with expansion.

*So on average, the trend is MLS getting half the NHL and CPL is currently getting less than half of the MLS

From numbers I gathered, MLS had a 60% increase in TV ratings since 2012 in the US. I don't think they come close to what the NHL got in 2011, certainly nowhere close to what the NHL gets in 2021 but a hefty bump nonetheless.

Conclusion: Not happening

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

MLS still continues to scrape by as it currently does, no lucrative TV deal and still paying slightly above average white collar salaries to the average player, still causing the domestic player coming out of college to question this as a career decision, thereby not drawing on top domestic athletes. In this scenario, and depending on how much the CPL has grown, the question of the three MLS teams joining up needs to be had if the economics make sense with regards to media, sponsorship and what not.

My feeling is when CSB renews the Media rights in 2029 that will determine how things plays out on the business side.

If they cash in on 2029 after the highs of a World cup, adding content with a Women's Premier League, a good national team (men and women), expended and exciting V Cup, Launch of D2, Provincial/Regional D3 with Memorial Cup tournament with a good viewership which should peak around 2026 (before and after), CPL should be cashing in 2029.

They don't need to make more than MLS but if the league and product can draw CFL level TV viewership by 2029, they get paid in my opinion and the payout per teams might be close enough to make some sense there. Them joining prior to 2029 with their notoriety would drastically increase the media deal. I think CPL meets the 3 clubs around 2027-2028 depending on the growth of the league and TV numbers. Unlike the Fury, those 3 have massive leverage in negotiations for joining.

In regards to MLS, their hunger for expansion fees will stagnate them. I don't think they stop expanding and we'll see an MLB type of league (National-American) way before pro/rel (they won't do it). You're talking about what happened in the NHL, dilution of talent and possible stagnation of level of play.

  1. Status quo: Dilution of talent, slow growth or stagnation of level of play due to constant expansion and parity
  2. Relaxes the rules: Creates a league of "Have" or "have not" which only TFC could follow the rhythm but Vancouver and Montreal would rapidly become forgettable have not teams. Losing and not making playoffs is bad for business (oh and the Expos are coming back)

MLS will have to chose at one point. This is where not wanting pro/rel hurts

Winning sells though.

  1. Forgettable mid tier MLS team that sometimes make the playoffs and/or just another team
  2. Becoming the "Barca, Real and Atletico" of Canada and building a dynasty as Canada's Champions worth remembering in the grander scheme.

Conclusion: Most likely scenario where MLS hits 3.0 and they are ready to at least hear CPL out around 2027-2028

  • If that fails, CONCACAF and CSA could be option B.
1 hour ago, Macksam said:

MLS implodes once the expansion money has dried up. This future is self explanatory. MLS owners will have no other option but join up unless they just want to get out of the soccer game altogether. This scenario is unlikely but considering first generation MLS teams still struggle at the gate and some expansion outfits like the Union have dwindling fanbases, it's entirely possible IMO.

Haha, not happening

Edited by Ansem
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2 hours ago, Macksam said:

To me it comes down to three scenarios in the aforementioned time frame:

  1. MLS becomes a top league, has that lucrative TV/media deal that's worth a billion plus annually and the league pays a minimum of $1,000,000 to its players, becoming a league where top athletes go right away and not something they lull over after college. In that situation, the three Canadian MLS teams aren't going to leave and probably shouldn't imo.
  2. MLS still continues to scrape by as it currently does, no lucrative TV deal and still paying slightly above average white collar salaries to the average player, still causing the domestic player coming out of college to question this as a career decision, thereby not drawing on top domestic athletes. In this scenario, and depending on how much the CPL has grown, the question of the three MLS teams joining up needs to be had if the economics make sense with regards to media, sponsorship and what not.
  3. MLS implodes once the expansion money has dried up. This future is self explanatory. MLS owners will have no other option but join up unless they just want to get out of the soccer game altogether. This scenario is unlikely but considering first generation MLS teams still struggle at the gate and some expansion outfits like the Union have dwindling fanbases, it's entirely possible IMO.

I'll pick 1, 3 and 2 actually

I think MLS has bet on #1 and if that don't happen by 2030 there's gonna be some issues. If the World Cup doesn't result in say a yearly global broadcast deals in the $400m to $1b range, I could see retractions starting. I don't see it imploding but a see team values taking as massive hit and the number of star imports going way down.

Just to note I don't see $1m being the minimum salary ever (it's not in most solid leagues) but do see a $10m salary cap happen if the league gets his goals

Edited by matty
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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

NHL now stands at $2B until 2021in the US ($200M/ years - $6.4M per team annually) in the US

MLS stands at $90M a year until 2022 ($3.75M per teams) in the US. With the expansion next year, the payment per team goes down.

CPL (I know, I know we don't know for sure) but let's say the $200M is true and after CSA gets paid there's around $150M in fees for CPL according to reports, that's ~US$1.5M per teams but that's going down too with expansion.

*So on average, the trend is MLS getting half the NHL and CPL is currently getting less than half of the MLS

From numbers I gathered, MLS had a 60% increase in TV ratings since 2012 in the US. I don't think they come close to what the NHL got in 2011, certainly nowhere close to what the NHL gets in 2021 but a hefty bump nonetheless.

Again, this is incorrect.  The rumoured $150m includes all the infrastructure around the league, not the fees the CPL would get.  If we were including all of those additional costs, it would bump the value on any TV deal for the NHL or MLS up considerably.  This calculation also doesn't take in to account whatever TSN is paying the 3 Canadian MLS teams.

So I guess I won't disagree that maybe the 3 MLS teams would take a look at it in a decade, but I think the gap is going to be considerably larger than you think.

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On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:40 PM, Watchmen said:

Again, this is incorrect.  The rumoured $150m includes all the infrastructure around the league, not the fees the CPL would get.  If we were including all of those additional costs, it would bump the value on any TV deal for the NHL or MLS up considerably.  This calculation also doesn't take in to account whatever TSN is paying the 3 Canadian MLS teams.

So I guess I won't disagree that maybe the 3 MLS teams would take a look at it in a decade, but I think the gap is going to be considerably larger than you think.

As @ted clarifies below, my evaluation means that CPL clubs are making decent money for a league that hasn't kicked one ball. The challenge will be to keep up over the years and cash in in 2029, while convincing the 3 MLS teams that their inclusion would push the TV deal to interesting level while allowing them to reduce their operating costs. *

*Mainly all expenses in Canadian dollars while having to mean to build dynasties.

The gap might be large on the books, but the gap in level of play will be the major factor along with the long term viability of the league for the sanctioning bodies to rule on this. CPL doesn't need to surpass or be extremely close to MLS, it needs to prove it's long term viability, growth and that it narrowed some of the gap and will keep doing it in the future. You have to take into account that the inclusion of those 3 would significantly upgrade all metrics of the league. CPL can easily become a top 5 CONCACAF league, we aren't talking moving those 3 to the equivalent of the Belize League.

MLS is a league at a crossroad

Status Quo:

  • Parity due to salary rules
  • Non-stop expansion : Let's not kid ourselves, they won't stop expanding as long ownership are willing to pay hundreds of Millions of dollars and build brand new stadiums. There is an existing model that MLS could use to justify such expansion : Major League Baseball --> Split the league in half, expand, All-Star Game and "a World Series Format". MLB doesn't need the expansion with the TV money they rack in. MLS ratings are poor and expanding is viewed as a way to put more money in the league and more viewers to boost TV revenues.
  • No pro-rel --> Dilution of talent (no pro-rel to separate the elite players/teams from the "ok players/teams") which may lead to
  • Slower growth of level of play leading to possible stagnation pass a certain point
  • Increasing gap with USL making that league and all other leagues at levels below MLS "dead ends" and unattractive options for foreign talents 

Compete to become a World Top league

  • Pull back salary rules --> Will create "have and have not teams". In the Canadian context, only TFC could hope to keep up as a "have" team. Montreal and Vancouver are unlikely to follow the trend.
  • Further pull back on domestic quotas: Reduces the "developmental scope" of MLS for American talents while improving their regional rivals playing in the league. Due to the growing gap with USL, Homegrown American development will take a hit. The strongest USL teams are usually owners investing more in talent hoping to be granted an MLS Franchise, the rest can't or won't do that.

Don't get me wrong, Status quo is what allowed MLS to start, survive and grow to what it is today. However, their unwillingness to step away from it and/or choosing to compete with other top leagues will have negative impacts in the future for our Canadian Clubs.

  1. Other leagues are catching up (looking at this year CCL), Panama, Costa Rica and even the Dominican team showed it could play against MLS. CPL is unlikely to be any different with much larger means.
  2. In the Status quo Scenario, parity means anyone can compete, sure but, the dilution of talent which can lead to a slower growth of level of play makes it easier for other leagues in the regions to narrow the gap while Liga MX will only get stronger. CPL won't surpass MLS but will narrow the gap overtime like Panama and possibly Costa Rica. Makes for an easy argument to review the 3 teams status in MLS.
  3. In the Compete to become a World Top league  Scenario, that's possibly less Canadians playing in MLS, which won't nor should go over well with the CSA who let's not forget, is sanctioning the league in Canada. That's either more Canadians falling in USL limbo or hopefully, simply opting for CPL instead.
  4. The biggest point here is the "have" and "have not" teams. TFC could keep up but the other 2 won't. What's great about being a mid tier, lower tier or 1 hit wonder team in MLS when you could be a dynasty in a Canadian League? What sells more, mediocre seasons or a rich history of championship and dynasties? The days of monopolies are over and that matters.

That's just my thought, no need to take it as fact, it's my opinion

Edited by Ansem
Ted Clarification
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On 3/27/2019 at 4:23 PM, Macksam said:

To me it comes down to three scenarios in the aforementioned time frame:

  1. MLS becomes a top league...
  2. MLS still continues to scrape by as it currently does...
  3. MLS implodes once the expansion money has dried up...

You missed the fourth option:

4. CanPL is a success and the CSA/CONCACAF/FIFA, as is their right, withdraw the exemption (similar to Ottawa) and they are required to move to CanPL (and make a shit-ton of money selling their franchise rights.)

 

 

On 3/27/2019 at 7:40 PM, Watchmen said:

Again, this is incorrect.  The rumoured $150m includes all the infrastructure around the league, not the fees the CPL would get. 

WTF did you get this? 

I was told by my source $150M FOR THE LEAGUE over 10 years. 

Then it was reported by another source that the amount being put into the deal was $200M and I speculated that the difference could be the amount required to invest in the broadcasts (equipment and personnel).
 

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11 hours ago, ted said:

WTF did you get this? 

I was told by my source $150M FOR THE LEAGUE over 10 years. 

Then it was reported by another source that the amount being put into the deal was $200M and I speculated that the difference could be the amount required to invest in the broadcasts (equipment and personnel).
 

you guys are basically saying the same thing. $150m going into league infrastructure is $150m for the league. the media reports also included the csa as getting money

Edited by matty
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2 hours ago, matty said:

you guys are basically saying the same thing. $150m going into league infrastructure is $150m for the league. the printed reports also included the csa as getting money

No we are not. 

$150M is the fee they are paying the league to gain the rights. A fee is very different from money spent on infrastructure. 

 

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