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matty

A Modest Idea

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4 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Was not intending to be presumptuous, I saw an idea that hadn't gained traction after 6 months of discussion and decided to gather some data, nothing wrong with that in my opinion. As I said in most posts, I also strongly doubt the league would have any interest in a fan funded award for winning the table, this is why I suggested approaching them with a few ideas that people were interested in

I had no intention of calling up the league. I specifically said I would talk to a few of the leaders of the supporters groups and see if they were interested in broaching the subject. No one is going rogue here Jamie. 

Agreed on the money aspect. 

Sorry if it sounded like I was speaking to you specifically, I wasn't.

What do you think about the Canadian vs open aspect of awards.   If you take a step back, create an award in your head and run some thought experiments you can quickly come up with some problematic scenarios.  Ones that make you look bad, possibly embarrassing to the player  or make other players in the league seem like second class citizens wrt to the league. 

 

 

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Just now, admin said:

Sorry if it sounded like I was speaking to you specifically, I wasn't.

What do you think about the Canadian vs open aspect of awards.   If you take a step back, create an award in your head and run some thought experiments you can quickly come up with some problematic scenarios.  Ones that make you look bad, possibly embarrassing to the player  or make other players in the league seem like second class citizens wrt to the league. 

 

 

Apologies, I interpreted that as directed towards me. 

I see your point, and while it hadn't occurred to me initially I see the problem. 

Maybe the way you had previously framed it could be appropriate, top Canadian International in CPL? Not sure if that gets overly convoluted  

Top Young Player (regardless of nationality) avoids all that, but that option garnered less than 3% of the vote

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I'm just curious Jamie but how would something like this go ahead?  Meet with the league at some point and let them know that the group is interested in sponsoring an award of some type and take it from there?

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17 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Apologies, I interpreted that as directed towards me. 

I see your point, and while it hadn't occurred to me initially I see the problem. 

Maybe the way you had previously framed it could be appropriate, top Canadian International in CPL? Not sure if that gets overly convoluted  

Top Young Player (regardless of nationality) avoids all that, but that option garnered less than 3% of the vote

I am a little late to the game here, however, voting on that I almost certainly wouldn't have considered these things at the time.

Ignoring players based on nationality seems petty to me while simultaneously inappropriate for us to hand out awards to players from other countries given who we are.   Those are resources I would consider misplaced.   Again I think it puts us in a lose lose situation.

We are not beholden to the poll.  It is perfectly reasonable that upon consideration and new information we change our minds about how to do something.  Which could be another poll in a new context. 

I would be more than happy to hand an award to a Honduran player who goes out of their way to do community work and help develop soccer. It's the essence of Support Local Soccer.   Think of how absurd it would be to ignore that guy if you had such an award and give it to a Canadian who was not remotely matched in civic duty simply  because of who they are.       Run that experiment in your head with different awards and scales and all sorts of problems arise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I'm just curious Jamie but how would something like this go ahead?  Meet with the league at some point and let them know that the group is interested in sponsoring an award of some type and take it from there?

Yes, I'll see about arranging that next week. 

There is also the possibility we are getting in the way of awards that should be awarded by the local supporters groups themselves. 

It really does need to be planned out or it becomes a mess.  

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30 minutes ago, admin said:

I am a little late to the game here, however, voting on that I almost certainly wouldn't have considered these things at the time.

Ignoring players based on nationality seems petty to me while simultaneously inappropriate for us to hand out awards to players from other countries given who we are.   Those are resources I would consider misplaced.   Again I think it puts us in a lose lose situation.

We are not beholden to the poll.  It is perfectly reasonable that upon consideration and new information we change our minds about how to do something.  Which could be another poll in a new context. 

I would be more than happy to hand an award to a Honduran player who goes out of their way to do community work and help develop soccer. It's the essence of Support Local Soccer.   Think of how absurd it would be to ignore that guy if you had such an award and give it to a Canadian who was not remotely matched in civic duty simply  because of who they are.       Run that experiment in your head with different awards and scales and all sorts of problems arise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I completely see your reasoning - if you recast it as "top domestic player" you leave it in the league's hands how they define that. The league will have domestic player rules...I don't see having a specific award for the top on field performance for a domestic player as any more inherently wrong than than having jobs reserved for domestic players. Such an award is not absurd because if there was a better Honduran player, they would be winning an MVP award instead of the top domestic award. 

I agree that the Voyageurs aren't beholden to a poll, but I don't think dismissing results is in the spirit of grassroots soccer support either. If the league isn't interested, that's also okay, it was just an idea. 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic Jamie, maybe I'm misinterpreting tone in text. People are just spitballing ideas of  how they want to express support for the league and are more than willing to go through the appropriate channels. We've both sat through them talking about how they want the league to be an expression of grassroots support, a fan donated award of some sort seems right up that alley. 

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11 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I'm not sure I completely see your reasoning - if you recast it as "top domestic player" you leave it in the league's hands how they define that. The league will have domestic player rules...I don't see having a specific award for the top on field performance for a domestic player as any more inherently wrong than than having jobs reserved for domestic players. Such an award is not absurd because if there was a better Honduran player, they would be winning an MVP award instead of the top domestic award. 

I agree that the Voyageurs aren't beholden to a poll, but I don't think dismissing results is in the spirit of grassroots soccer support either. If the league isn't interested, that's also okay, it was just an idea. 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic Jamie, maybe I'm misinterpreting tone in text. People are just spitballing ideas of  how they want to express support for the league and are more than willing to go through the appropriate channels. We've both sat through them talking about how they want the league to be an expression of grassroots support, a fan donated award of some sort seems right up that alley. 

Text can be difficult.  No thought of antagonism at all in my head.   This is exactly the kind of grassroots thing we want people to be doing.

We also don't know what the makeup of the league is going to be.     Are there any examples of these types of awards anywhere else where an award in a league is only given to domestic players?

 

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33 minutes ago, admin said:

Text can be difficult.  No thought of antagonism at all in my head.   This is exactly the kind of grassroots thing we want people to be doing.

We also don't know what the makeup of the league is going to be.     Are there any examples of these types of awards anywhere else where an award in a league is only given to domestic players?

Off the top of my head, not aware of any, but I'm not the type that has that sort of encyclopedic soccer knowledge 

Also fine if you (and/or the league) would have reservations about a top domestic/top young domestic award, I'm just a little surprised, didn't think it would be controversial seeing as there will be domestic rules in place. 

If you want to touch base and test the waters, that sounds great. 

Quote

Glitch

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Almost all of the posts above were in effect thinking out loud, and I think I am still in that mode.   

Controversial is too strong a word, it's not my intention to shoot things down (with the exception of the money thing, I don't think we can do that)

Something else to consider, how would you vote on it?  We are all together supporting the same team at the national level and we can have  differing opinions as to who is the best player as do supporters at a pro club would.   

At the club level, league wide, what would "Best Canadian Player in MLS" at this stage devolve into but club tribalism?  One would hope a successful CanPL would be similar at the club level.  

It might make more sense that it's the CanPL SGs  that should be giving awards to players in the CanPL. 

 

 

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Just thinking out loud as well about the tribalism thing but we could sponsor an award and not vote on it.  Seriously, do we really need to vote on something?  If we do come to arrangement with the CPL powers that be, let the players (seriously my first choice) or media vote on it.

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4 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I would honestly be pretty surprised if the league was open to its top prize being in the hands of a crowdfunding award.

The top prize for the CanPL will likely be for the winner of a playoff. I hate the idea of playoffs but I'd bet $$ that it will be so. That means that like the MLS, the top of the table award could be something else.

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22 minutes ago, ted said:

The top prize for the CanPL will likely be for the winner of a playoff. I hate the idea of playoffs but I'd bet $$ that it will be so. That means that like the MLS, the top of the table award could be something else.

There's no playoffs

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42 minutes ago, admin said:

It might make more sense that it's the CanPL SGs  that should be giving awards to players in the CanPL. 

 

 

To be honest this is what I was initially thinking anyway, may have misinterpreted your reaction. Thought you were a little put off by the concept of it being not directly under the umbrella of the Voyageurs (which is why I planned to bring the results to the CPL SG leadership and see what they wanted to do with it). 

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45 minutes ago, ted said:

The top prize for the CanPL will likely be for the winner of a playoff. I hate the idea of playoffs but I'd bet $$ that it will be so. That means that like the MLS, the top of the table award could be something else.

No playoffs.  This is going to be unlike any league in USA or Canada.... in more ways than one. 

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6 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Alright, so I'm hearing that we need to communicate with the CSA as well that whatever options people are most interested in pursuing doesn't overlap with something that they want to do. That's reasonable 

Best U-23 Voyageurs board shitposter.

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6 hours ago, admin said:

Awarding money, I can take a solid guess, will not be something we can or should do.   I would drop it completely until our trusty super accountant and lawyer can give me a clear answer on the ramifications of that.   It also would be lethal for anyone in or possibly even going to college/uni. 

If this was an award for the top L1O or PLSQ player, sure, but wouldn't getting a pro salary in a pro league disqualify them from college/uni anyway?  I can see the problems with a cash prize but don't see how this would be one of them.

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41 minutes ago, ted said:

Really? Sweet! 

Will there be a league cup then (as I suggested)? ;)

 

All we know is that they are going with single table. My personal suspicion is that the V-Cup will fill the desire for cup competition but that's just my speculation 

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17 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

If this was an award for the top L1O or PLSQ player, sure, but wouldn't getting a pro salary in a pro league disqualify them from college/uni anyway?  I can see the problems with a cash prize but don't see how this would be one of them.

Depends.  I think status also reverts now quickly. 

We don't know how the league is going to be structure or who will be in it.  

If we are looking at an award for younger players, there could be players coming up from a reserve team on loan... I don't know.

 

 

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On 22/02/2018 at 2:33 PM, admin said:

Are there any examples of these types of awards anywhere else where an award in a league is only given to domestic players?

Not a soccer example, but a Canadian example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFL's_Most_Outstanding_Canadian_Award

My opinions on some of the hot button issues.
1. We shouldn't give an award to the team at the top of the table, this I strongly assume will be handled by CPL, especially since they have said there won't be playoffs.
2. I really doubt a small cash prize would be a problem for players in the league for college eligibility reasons, since I believe they have also said it will be a fully professional league. That being said, a cash prize doesn't seem to work for other reasons.
3. I have no problem whatsoever with a Canadian player award, especially if it's going to be branded with the Voyageurs name (I know that isn't set in stone yet). If the Canadian supporters group wants to give an award to the best Canadian, or best young Canadian, i don't see any problem with that. And as I mentioned above, it's not breaking new ground. Also consider that the league would almost definitely want to give out their own MVP award, so we would need something a bit more niche than that.

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3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

All we know is that they are going with single table. My personal suspicion is that the V-Cup will fill the desire for cup competition but that's just my speculation 

Wait. what? A single table doesn't necessarily mean no playoffs? (But I remain hopeful that will be true.)

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58 minutes ago, Kent said:

1. We shouldn't give an award to the team at the top of the table, this I strongly assume will be handled by CPL, especially since they have said there won't be playoffs.

Sweet mother of god, what do you think the Stanley and Grey Cup are, random names the league made up when the bought the trophies??!?

Of COURSE we can donate a ******* trophy for whatever ******* purpose if they will let us. Why would they NOT??!?!?! 

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29 minutes ago, ted said:

Sweet mother of god, what do you think the Stanley and Grey Cup are, random names the league made up when the bought the trophies??!?

Of COURSE we can donate a ******* trophy for whatever ******* purpose if they will let us. Why would they NOT??!?!?! 

Touché!

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50 minutes ago, ted said:

Sweet mother of god, what do you think the Stanley and Grey Cup are, random names the league made up when the bought the trophies??!?

Of COURSE we can donate a ******* trophy for whatever ******* purpose if they will let us. Why would they NOT??!?!?! 

Realistically, this should come from a combination of us and all the CanPL SG's 

 

 

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