Herdsman to step down in 2020

[BreadBoy]

Just watched the TSN report about Herdman joining the Men's team. They talked about Herdman, about Zambrano, about the World Cup, but no mention of impact on Women's team or who took over.....

 

[Lord Bob]

5 minutes ago, BreadBoy said:

Just watched the TSN report about Herdman joining the Men's team. They talked about Herdman, about Zambrano, about the World Cup, but no mention of impact on Women's team or who took over.....

Well that's the great unknown, isn't it? I was thinking about this myself. We know Herdman, we knew Zambrano a bit, Heiner-Møller coached Denmark years ago in a World Cup but who remembers the details? This could mean a lot of things. We'll only have the slightest amount of information when he gets the team together.

[ChrisinOrleans]

I really don't care about the Men's program (I know, I am an awful voyageur). My biggest concern is for the women's program. 

The last time I saw them play was... Ottawa in 2016. They beat Brazil 1-0 on a late goal by Ashley Lawrence (if my memory serves, it may have also been Josée Bélanger). They were a well oiled machine, and they were just coming off a bronze medal win at the Olympics, and it was honestly the best soccer game I have attended. Sure, the atmosphere didn't have pyrotechnics, but I don't even like that kind of stuff. Half the audience was under 15, and it was amazing to see the next generation - particularly females - taking an interest in the sport and seeing that they could succeed at the highest levels of soccer. Against BRAZIL no less (and Marta!) 

Knowing that Herdman left, while his team was placed fourth, makes sense. He's been there since 2012. What pisses me off is that he was talking about how "there is no reason we cannot be #1" and blah, blah, blah. The CSA didn't have a back-up to Herdman, and they preferred the male coach and the men's program to their Olympic medal winning women's team. 

I can't shake the feeling that old boys network at the CSA simply doesn't regard the women's team as important, and just screwed the team because they knew they could get away with it. And it's not like the Women's World Cup is coming up next year either. 12 months to find a coach, train under that coach and develop a new strategy or style is not a lot of time. Not after achieving the kind of results this team has accomplished in the last 24- 48 months. 

[BreadBoy]

James Sharman talks a little about the firing and (specifically the new WNT coach at 4:45)

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/john-herdman-octavio-zambrano-canada-soccer-mens-team-womens-team-olympics-world-cup/

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

1 hour ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

I really don't care about the Men's program (I know, I am an awful voyageur). My biggest concern is for the women's program. 

The last time I saw them play was... Ottawa in 2016. They beat Brazil 1-0 on a late goal by Ashley Lawrence (if my memory serves, it may have also been Josée Bélanger). They were a well oiled machine, and they were just coming off a bronze medal win at the Olympics, and it was honestly the best soccer game I have attended. Sure, the atmosphere didn't have pyrotechnics, but I don't even like that kind of stuff. Half the audience was under 15, and it was amazing to see the next generation - particularly females - taking an interest in the sport and seeing that they could succeed at the highest levels of soccer. Against BRAZIL no less (and Marta!) 

Knowing that Herdman left, while his team was placed fourth, makes sense. He's been there since 2012. What pisses me off is that he was talking about how "there is no reason we cannot be #1" and blah, blah, blah. The CSA didn't have a back-up to Herdman, and they preferred the male coach and the men's program to their Olympic medal winning women's team. 

I can't shake the feeling that old boys network at the CSA simply doesn't regard the women's team as important, and just screwed the team because they knew they could get away with it. And it's not like the Women's World Cup is coming up next year either. 12 months to find a coach, train under that coach and develop a new strategy or style is not a lot of time. Not after achieving the kind of results this team has accomplished in the last 24- 48 months. 

Old boys appreciate money. The Women made them money.

So optimism from the most cynical way to view it? Hope so.

Either team going months without a coach is shambolic.

[ChrisinOrleans]

28 minutes ago, Fort York Redcoat1555362293 said:

Old boys appreciate money. The Women made them money.

So optimism from the most cynical way to view it? Hope so.

Either team going months without a coach is shambolic.

Time will tell. 

If the WNT crash and burn at the next WWC, there should be absolute Hell to pay. 

[Admin]

2 hours ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

I really don't care about the Men's program (I know, I am an awful voyageur). My biggest concern is for the women's program. 

The last time I saw them play was... Ottawa in 2016. They beat Brazil 1-0 on a late goal by Ashley Lawrence (if my memory serves, it may have also been Josée Bélanger). They were a well oiled machine, and they were just coming off a bronze medal win at the Olympics, and it was honestly the best soccer game I have attended. Sure, the atmosphere didn't have pyrotechnics, but I don't even like that kind of stuff. Half the audience was under 15, and it was amazing to see the next generation - particularly females - taking an interest in the sport and seeing that they could succeed at the highest levels of soccer. Against BRAZIL no less (and Marta!) 

Knowing that Herdman left, while his team was placed fourth, makes sense. He's been there since 2012. What pisses me off is that he was talking about how "there is no reason we cannot be #1" and blah, blah, blah. The CSA didn't have a back-up to Herdman, and they preferred the male coach and the men's program to their Olympic medal winning women's team. 

I can't shake the feeling that old boys network at the CSA simply doesn't regard the women's team as important, and just screwed the team because they knew they could get away with it. And it's not like the Women's World Cup is coming up next year either. 12 months to find a coach, train under that coach and develop a new strategy or style is not a lot of time. Not after achieving the kind of results this team has accomplished in the last 24- 48 months. 

So is Herdman our prisoner and he is never supposed to leave?   Him doing something new after 6 or 7 years of positive impact on our program doesn't need to be attributed to any malice on the part of the CSA.   Clearly it is the opposite, they obviously value what he has done.  They didn't ditch him, he wanted to do something different and they gave him that opportunity.

Were they supposed to have a backup for Herdman 3 years in advance?   The mistake was poor hiring on the men's side it would seem and this is the fix to that error, which is the opposite of what you are saying. 

[Admin]

7 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Time will tell. 

If the WNT crash and burn at the next WWC, there should be absolute Hell to pay. 

For who?

Herdman or the CSA for not finding a good enough replacement? 

[Blackdude]

If the WNT crash and burn at the next WWC, it won't be because of the coaching change. I think they hired a better coach than they did 7 years ago. It'S not like they hired some bum to replace Herdman. Heiner-Møller has a track record that is better than what Herdman had before coming here. Now if it doesn't work, it could be for many reasons, but I don't think that the coaching change would be the number 1 reason. 

[ChrisinOrleans]

29 minutes ago, admin said:

So is Herdman our prisoner and he is never supposed to leave?   Him doing something new after 6 or 7 years of positive impact on our program doesn't need to be attributed to any malice on the part of the CSA.   Clearly it is the opposite, they obviously value what he has done.  They didn't ditch him, he wanted to do something different and they gave him that opportunity.

Were they supposed to have a backup for Herdman 3 years in advance?   The mistake was poor hiring on the men's side it would seem and this is the fix to that error, which is the opposite of what you are saying. 

Of course not. Anyone is free to leave whenever. However, 1. How much notice was given to the players, and why were they reacting as if shocked? Was the information relayed professionally and personally? 2. Do they have faith in, or trust in the CSA to faithfully and successfully lead change with a World Cup on the horizon? This is not a slight against the CSA, merely a skepticism of their ability to successfully lead change into a post-Herdman World Cup with the time and resources available, assuming there is a shock from the players (as expressed on social media).

It's as you said - and I agree in principal, if not in minutiae -  the problem is on the men's side. However, I fail to see why the women's team should bear the brunt of the men's failure. If Herdman wanted the men's job, fine, but the appearance (perhaps not the reality) is that it came at the expense of the women's program. That is the genesis of my argument; not the CSA.    

6 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

If the WNT crash and burn at the next WWC, it won't be because of the coaching change. I think they hired a better coach than they did 7 years ago. It'S not like they hired some bum to replace Herdman. Heiner-Møller has a track record that is better than what Herdman had before coming here. Now if it doesn't work, it could be for many reasons, but I don't think that the coaching change would be the number 1 reason. 

I'm not arguing that point, merely pointing out that a failure to adequately plan for a succession in coaching has resulted in an inadequate amount of time to prepare for a major tournament.  

Absolutely. Limitations on program resources, and a lack of professional opportunity at the club level are chief among those concerns. 

[ChrisinOrleans]

36 minutes ago, admin said:

For who?

Herdman or the CSA for not finding a good enough replacement? 

I didn't see that you posted two comments. Desolé. 

The CSA for not planning succession. I am unsure it is as simple as "find elite female coach" and bam, you're done. However, I'll also assume that the CSA should know at this point that their women's program is "elite" calibre. @Blackdude posted above that the new interim coach has roughly the experience that Herdman did when he joined in 2011, but "that was then, this is now".

We were ranked #12 or #11 back then, and had just been booted from the World Cup after a nasty exit at the 2011 WWC. Now we're 4th in the World, and have two bronze Olympic medals and have hosted the WWC. We're in a slightly different realm, as the WNT is now selling out major stadiums as well. The momentum really cannot afford to falter for the sake of the program. 

I mean, my background is environmental law, so maybe I am totally wrong, but this is the sentiment I have after watching the events unfold today. 

[Lord Bob]

"Succession plans" are difficult. Herdman obviously rated Heiner-Møller a lot; apparently he approached Heiner-Møller to come over and do some technical work right after he left the Danish head coaching gig! He's been a reasonable success everywhere he's been, which of course hasn't been that many places, but if you want to have somebody around to "wait in the wings" in case Herdman gets an offer from England and can somehow parlay that into a last-minute move to the MNT, you're a lot more likely to have a Heiner-Møller type than a Laura Harvey type.

It's a little late in the day, but in principle if Heiner-Møller blows it there is still time to get time to get someone else in. We have 18 months, if we take qualifying as a given (which we shouldn't obviously, but are going to).

[Admin]

41 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Of course not. Anyone is free to leave whenever. However, 1. How much notice was given to the players, and why were they reacting as if shocked? Was the information relayed professionally and personally? 2. Do they have faith in, or trust in the CSA to faithfully and successfully lead change with a World Cup on the horizon? This is not a slight against the CSA, merely a skepticism of their ability to successfully lead change into a post-Herdman World Cup with the time and resources available, assuming there is a shock from the players (as expressed on social media).

It's as you said - and I agree in principal, if not in minutiae -  the problem is on the men's side. However, I fail to see why the women's team should bear the brunt of the men's failure. If Herdman wanted the men's job, fine, but the appearance (perhaps not the reality) is that it came at the expense of the women's program. That is the genesis of my argument; not the CSA.    

I'm not arguing that point, merely pointing out that a failure to adequately plan for a succession in coaching has resulted in an inadequate amount of time to prepare for a major tournament.  

Absolutely. Limitations on program resources, and a lack of professional opportunity at the club level are chief among those concerns. 

How much information can you give a group of people about your job negotiation?  You just can't give a room full of people with Twitter accounts information before the deal is done.  You just can't do that, you will lose. 

Of course Herdman wanted the men's job.  He used a job offer with England as leverage to get it.   The women's team isn't bearing the brunt of the men's failure.  The failure was in hiring Oz.  In other words they clearly did better due diligence for the Women's side than they did for the men's.   Herdman saw and opportunity to do something new and took it.  This isn't a lack of respect for the women's program, it's an endorsement of it. 

I agree with you we should be skeptical.  It's not like the hiring practice is parsed out for the two programs, they could make the same mistake again, and of course have made mistakes with the women's coach in the past. 

I don't think H&M is going to be a problem.    Let's give both coaches 5 games on either side of the fence and see what happens. 

 

 

[carolynduthie]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

How much information can you give a group of people about your job negotiation?  You just can't give a room full of people with Twitter accounts information before the deal is done.  You just can't do that, you will lose. 

Of course Herdman wanted the men's job.  He used a job offer with England as leverage to get it.   The women's team isn't bearing the brunt of the men's failure.  The failure was in hiring Oz.  In other words they clearly did better due diligence for the Women's side than they did for the men's.   Herdman saw and opportunity to do something new and took it.  This isn't a lack of respect for the women's program, it's an endorsement of it. 

I agree with you we should be skeptical.  It's not like the hiring practice is parsed out for the two programs, they could make the same mistake again, and of course have made mistakes with the women's coach in the past. 

I don't think H&M is going to be a problem.    Let's give both coaches 5 games on either side of the fence and see what happens. 

 

 

Assuming the deal didn't get done 20 minutes before the story broke yesterday there was a window in which he could have called people or sent an e-mail blast or something that would have led to all of the player reactions being like the ones we're seeing today ("John was great, thank you for everything you've done for us, good luck with the men") and not "ummmmmmmmmmm". 

Sure, managers don't discuss with their staff the new job they're in negotiations for but the good ones do generally tell you they're leaving themselves. 

[Admin]

15 minutes ago, carolynduthie said:

Assuming the deal didn't get done 20 minutes before the story broke yesterday there was a window in which he could have called people or sent an e-mail blast or something that would have led to all of the player reactions being like the ones we're seeing today ("John was great, thank you for everything you've done for us, good luck with the men") and not "ummmmmmmmmmm". 

Sure, managers don't discuss with their staff the new job they're in negotiations for but the good ones do generally tell you they're leaving themselves. 

It was said the announcement was forced due to it being leaked.

I don't think you can accuse Herdman of being aloof with his players, at least from what I have seen.  He seems to be good at being civil and building relationships with people & players.   I doubt the the situation as it played out could be attributed to any lack of respect for people on his part, just seems unlikely to me. 

 

 

[Vic]

"Heiner-Møller has a track record that is better than what Herdman had before coming here."

Hmmm. His wikipedia say's Denmark 2006-2013. Before that just very, very limited club and club youth.

In Denmark he received a team ranked 8th and during his tenure they went once to 7th, never higher and started dropping in his second year and ended up ranked 13th when he left.

After he left they brought in Nils Nielsen to turn things around and he floated a few points up and down and then took them to the Euro final this past summer.  Getting past Germany and to a final is no walk in the park but when you are graced with players like Harder, Nadim and Troelsgaard you have three lifelines. Although Heiner-Moller had all three for most of his tenure as well.

Herdman was in New Zealand 2006-2011 in which time they went from #24th ranked to ... 24th ranked.  The Ferns went up to #16th the following year under Tony Readings and have floated between 16-19 since Herdman departed.

So, back to the original premise - Herdman held a ranking he was given, Heiner-Moller dropped his. And both of their successors had noticeable improvement.

[carolynduthie]

10 minutes ago, Vic said:

"Heiner-Møller has a track record that is better than what Herdman had before coming here."

Hmmm. His wikipedia say's Denmark 2006-2013. Before that just very, very limited club and club youth.

In Denmark he received a team ranked 8th and during his tenure they went once to 7th, never higher and started dropping in his second year and ended up ranked 13th when he left.

After he left they brought in Nils Nielsen to turn things around and he floated a few points up and down and then took them to the Euro final this past summer.  Getting past Germany and to a final is no walk in the park but when you are graced with players like Harder, Nadim and Troelsgaard you have three lifelines. Although Heiner-Moller had all three for most of his tenure as well.

Herdman was in New Zealand 2006-2011 in which time they went from #24th ranked to ... 24th ranked.  The Ferns went up to #16th the following year under Tony Readings and have floated between 16-19 since Herdman departed.

So, back to the original premise - Herdman held a ranking he was given, Heiner-Moller dropped his. And both of their successors had noticeable improvement.

They didn't bring in Nils Nielsen to "turn things around", Heiner-Møller left after leading them to the semis of Euro, knocking out France in the quarters, which if anything was an over-performance given that they were the 7th ranked team in Europe going in. He was a few missed PKs away from getting to the Euro final, which is exactly what his successor achieved. (They may have over-achieved more this time, given that they actually won some games, and they were the 8th ranked team in Europe going in at #15, but if anything this hurts your argument cause Denmark's ranking has in fact dropped since Heiner-Møller left - I don't put too much stock in rankings when you're comparing numbers that close together, cause it has as much to do with what other teams do, but you can't really say there's been a noticeable improvement if the ranking went down. They're ranked #12 now, but they were also ranked #12 in the August 2013 FIFA rankings (the ones that would've first taken into account the 2013 Euro results) so...I'm struggling a bit to see how Nielsen has turned things around so much as continued on with steady performances. 

New Zealand Herdman also had the benefit of basically automatically qualifying to every major international tournament - there's a spot for Oceania and qualifiers are non-competitve even if New Zealand comes out and plays poorly. Europe is much harder to qualify out of. 

[Vic]

Great post.

For Denmark go back farther to understand his tenure.

In the 2001 Euro Denmark were solid and 8th ranked in the world and topped their group of France, Norway and Italy (and the Norwegians were slick and ahead of the curve back then, i.e. 2000 Olympic champions). They stumbled in the semi to a good Swedish team with a darting young Hanna Ljungberg before Bouhaddi ended her.

In 2005 they lost and tied in group and didn't get past the first round, which was probably the paving to Heiner-Moller's entrance.

In 2009 under his leadership they lost a pair of games and again didn't come out of group.

In the 2013 Euro Denmark were winless in group. In 2013 under the old format, 67% of teams got out of group (it's now only 50% of teams). There were five winless teams in group and Denmark got the lucky straw. They drew France and were out-shot 31-4 and didn't even have a corner.

Which was similarly likely the paving to his exit.

In 2017 they won every game they played except against the Dutch. And their shots against the Germans were almost even.

The highest ranking Denmark have had since 2010 is 12th, and they are now 12th, so I don't think their ranking has dropped since he left.

Their ranking before he arrived was:  8-7-7
Their ranking in his tenure was: 8-6-7-6-10-12-12-12

As you say statistics are non-linear but that looks like a trend to me and it doesn't look to me like an improvement.

Yeah Oceania should be a playoff like the men's tournament. It used to be legit back when Herdman arrived in NZ and Australia was still in.

[carolynduthie]

21 minutes ago, Vic said:

Great post.

For Denmark go back farther to understand his tenure.

In the 2001 Euro Denmark were solid and 8th ranked in the world and topped their group of France, Norway and Italy (and the Norwegians were slick and ahead of the curve back then, i.e. 2000 Olympic champions). They stumbled in the semi to a good Swedish team with a darting young Hanna Ljungberg before Bouhaddi ended her.

In 2005 they lost and tied in group and didn't get past the first round, which was probably the paving to Heiner-Moller's entrance.

In 2009 under his leadership they lost a pair of games and again didn't come out of group.

In the 2013 Euro Denmark were winless in group. In 2013 under the old format, 67% of teams got out of group (it's now only 50% of teams). There were five winless teams in group and Denmark got the lucky straw. They drew France and were out-shot 31-4 and didn't even have a corner.

Which was similarly likely the paving to his exit.

In 2017 they won every game they played except against the Dutch. And their shots against the Germans were almost even.

The highest ranking Denmark have had since 2010 is 12th, and they are now 12th, so I don't think their ranking has dropped since he left.

Their ranking before he arrived was:  8-7-7
Their ranking in his tenure was: 8-6-7-6-10-12-12-12

As you say statistics are non-linear but that looks like a trend to me and it doesn't look to me like an improvement.

Yeah Oceania should be a playoff like the men's tournament. It used to be legit back when Herdman arrived in NZ and Australia was still in.

In August 2016 Denmark was #20, went up to #15 after a solid Algarve Cup and then climbed back to #12 after Euros. 

Also, it should be noted, from every source I can find, Heiner-Møller wasn't fired, he left. (I mean sure he could have been fired anyways and maybe just got out while he could but it's not like Denmark finished up Euros and immediately sacked him in 2013). 

[Lord Bob]

Heiner-Møller's change of job to a developmental role in the Danish association was actually announced the February before Euro 2013, to take effect after the tournament.

[Vic]

Wasn't saying he was fired, leaving a program is a many-layered thing. Just that it wasn't working and he may have appreciated that.

[BreadBoy]

"Canada Soccer demoted John Herdman from coach of the national women's team to head of the entire men's program"

From the Globe and Mail today:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/john-herdman-enters-the-black-hole-of-canadian-mens-soccer/article37546067/

 

[BreadBoy]

Sinclair clears up some confusion about her initial tweet:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/christine-sinclair-john-herdman-canada-soccer-1.4480477#comments-14480477

 

[Rheo]

Awful Announcing picked up on the Larson's stupid comparison of men and women's soccer

http://thecomeback.com/soccer/canadian-women-soccer-players-blast-toronto-sun.html

[tc-in-bc]

^ I read Larson's piece and overall he respects John Herdman and believes that people should give him a chance with the men's program. But some of Larson's comments in the article  get into stereotypes about women soccer and women soccer players. Consequently those statements  were sexist and insulting. Larson  should probably apologize and clarify what he meant.