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Rheo

Herdsman to step down in 2020

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[ 1 ]   I think it's a good idea to keep all the bronze medal winners involved in Canadian player development. They have experience that can't be duplicated;  they've competed at the highest level and they have won something. That said, are former players like Moscato and Wilkinson going to be experienced enough to coach and manage a national team in 2021? When a national team makes changes at the top do you go from  'experienced with a successful track record'  to ' inexperienced with a modest track record' ?  Herdman's replacement has to be someone who knows what they're doing.

[ 2 ]  If it has to be a woman then the following women are all  experienced at coaching at a very  high level:

- Carolina Morace   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Morace

( ok this has been done before)

- Hesterine  de Reus  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesterine_de_Reus

- Vera Pauw  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Pauw

- Laura Harvey  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Harvey

- Emma Hayes  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Hayes

- Bev  Priestman  http://canadasoccer.com/index.php?t=profile&pid=7007

( maybe the best in-house  candidate ?)

[ 3 ]   If John Herdman got a coaching opportunity in the men's game tomorrow, then should the  CSA let him out of his contract early and let him go now ?  Maybe the the CSA should be doing a replacement coaching search right now instead of waiting until after 2020. Get a new vision in here. If a guy wants to go, is he really committed to 2019/2020?

[ 4 ]  How should Canadian woso fans feel if John Herdman's  next move is still in the women's game? He must be a  desirable commodity in women soccer; he has a really strong resume.: two Olympic bronze medals , set up a National/Regional excel program and basically  New Zealand's national team ( Football Ferns ) began to flounder after he left; Perhaps his next move is coaching the English Women's National Team ( the LIonesses ) ? Or  maybe an FA WSL club?

[ 5 ] Regardless, when he leaves I wish him well, And he really, really leaves big shoes to fill.

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Herdman spoke at a private corporate event right around the time that he signed his new contract. I'd have to go back and listen to the recording (if I can find it) but my impression was that it was always his plan to walk away at the end of this contract.  He felt there was still work to do with the team and that was the amount of time needed to see his vision through.  He also said in that talk that he felt the next coach was on the squad at the time (this was in 2013).

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9 hours ago, tc-in-bc said:

[ 1 ]   I think it's a good idea to keep all the bronze medal winners involved in Canadian player development. They have experience that can't be duplicated;  they've competed at the highest level and they have won something. That said, are former players like Moscato and Wilkinson going to be experienced enough to coach and manage a national team in 2021? When a national team makes changes at the top do you go from  'experienced with a successful track record'  to ' inexperienced with a modest track record' ?  Herdman's replacement has to be someone who knows what they're doing.

[ 2 ]  If it has to be a woman then the following women are all  experienced at coaching at a very  high level:

- Carolina Morace   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Morace

( ok this has been done before)

- Hesterine  de Reus  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesterine_de_Reus

- Vera Pauw  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Pauw

- Laura Harvey  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Harvey

- Emma Hayes  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Hayes

- Bev  Priestman  http://canadasoccer.com/index.php?t=profile&pid=7007

( maybe the best in-house  candidate ?)

[ 3 ]   If John Herdman got a coaching opportunity in the men's game tomorrow, then should the  CSA let him out of his contract early and let him go now ?  Maybe the the CSA should be doing a replacement coaching search right now instead of waiting until after 2020. Get a new vision in here. If a guy wants to go, is he really committed to 2019/2020?

[ 4 ]  How should Canadian woso fans feel if John Herdman's  next move is still in the women's game? He must be a  desirable commodity in women soccer; he has a really strong resume.: two Olympic bronze medals , set up a National/Regional excel program and basically  New Zealand's national team ( Football Ferns ) began to flounder after he left; Perhaps his next move is coaching the English Women's National Team ( the LIonesses ) ? Or  maybe an FA WSL club?

[ 5 ] Regardless, when he leaves I wish him well, And he really, really leaves big shoes to fill.

Forget about Morace and Priestman.

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6 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Could you please correct the thread title to "Herdman"?

Our players may take offense at the current misspelling! :)

Was a phone autocorrect.  Don't think I can edit it from what I've tried lol

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8 hours ago, Rheo said:

Was a phone autocorrect.  Don't think I can edit it from what I've tried lol

Yeah, I have the same problem. :(

But I think if you edit your original post (the first post in this thread) then you will be able to change it.

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Think we should give him a nice gift and say thank you for the great service and good luck in your future endeavours.

And then look into who the next coach will be.  Hiring is the domain of the organization, not the incumbent.  Great professional coach but the posturing for his chosen successor is weak and awkward.

Every few years when we hire a coach we give them the keys to the entire women's game in the country.  Which is of course a completely different thing than coaching a team.  I'm not sure if we do this because we're cheap or just confused.  But either way it leaves us pretty directionless and with a person in charge with a vested interest in ranking (and their future) and not system development.

We need to hire a person to manage women's soccer in Canada, and properly enable them.  And hire a national team coach.

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7 hours ago, Vic said:

And then look into who the next coach will be.  Hiring is the domain of the organization, not the incumbent.  Great professional coach but the posturing for his chosen successor is weak and awkward.

We need to hire a person to manage women's soccer in Canada, and properly enable them.  And hire a national team coach.

We give them the keys to the kingdom because we want the style of play to be influenced from the top to the bottom of the organization. We want leaders who understand that their work is not as a cog in the wheel, but as leaders. As a leader, you should also expect to be tasked with making sure that you are preparing your position for the next in charge. If you look at lots of large organizations, that's part of their job. Whether it be in politics, finance, or elsewise. They need to pass on a legacy to the next generation of leaders. 

John Herdman is a leader. He know he didn't want to just sit down and tactically manage pawns. He wanted to lead individuals who fulfilled a job and had them excel in those positions. Part of that is encouraging a legacy, opportunities beyond that single position that those individuals currently occupy. Him helping in the decision for the next choice is the sign of a good leader. He has a transition plan, and he has encouraged his followers (as he is a leader) to step up.

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On 7/4/2017 at 11:13 AM, Levi Oakey said:

We give them the keys to the kingdom because we want the style of play to be influenced from the top to the bottom of the organization. We want leaders who understand that their work is not as a cog in the wheel, but as leaders. As a leader, you should also expect to be tasked with making sure that you are preparing your position for the next in charge. If you look at lots of large organizations, that's part of their job. Whether it be in politics, finance, or elsewise. They need to pass on a legacy to the next generation of leaders. 

John Herdman is a leader. He know he didn't want to just sit down and tactically manage pawns. He wanted to lead individuals who fulfilled a job and had them excel in those positions. Part of that is encouraging a legacy, opportunities beyond that single position that those individuals currently occupy. Him helping in the decision for the next choice is the sign of a good leader. He has a transition plan, and he has encouraged his followers (as he is a leader) to step up.

It's hard to not be impressed by what Herdsman (I've decided to embrace his new name in this thread) has done for our women's programme. But that doesn't mean this is the best way my to organize things or that it will work as well in the future.

My best guess for how this arrangement came about is that when Herdsman was hired the CSA didn't have an effing clue what they were doing (actually this part is a bit more than a best guess ;) ) and he needed to overhaul the whole programme from top to bottom. And the one thing the CSA did right was to hand him the keys.

Nevertheless, I'm inclined to agree with Vic.

Edited by Lofty

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I'm pretty sure Carolina Morace didn't hire John Herdman, nor Even Pellerud Morace, nor Neil Turnbull Pellerud.  Nor Benito Floro Octaviao Zambrano, or Stephen Hart Floro. Nor any of our national team coaches in any sport via their predecessor.

Hiring is the domain of the organization, not the incumbent.

My issue isn't with the hiring, the CSA have a good batting record and I trust they will do a fine job there. My issue is with leadership in Canadian women's soccer. Leadership in the women's national programs is through the roof.  We are and have been incredibly gifted to have strong talent there going back decades.

Outside the national programs though, comparative to the rest of the developed world in elite women's soccer - Canada has stood still for decades while other countries have gone through the roof. We are an embarrassment on the world stage for our stature and someone or something has to take the fall for that.  And someone has to be tasked 100% with fixing it. And not a national team coach moonlighting at it and balancing the massive job of our national programs with at least an inkling of vested interest.

What is the legacy of John Herdman in elite women's soccer in Canada (outside our national programs)?  Or Carolina Morace?  Or Even Pellerud? Is there leadership there?  What have the keys opened, created and improved there? I know what other people have done on their own (like L1O) and it is fantastic and inspirational.  Why do we have decades of vacuum and why is taking the women's game forward left to these people?

I see what a lot of other countries are doing first-hand and what really saddens me is seeing all the great supporters of women's soccer in these countries engaged, empowered and given a voice and a purpose and then coming back home where elite women's soccer is a monopolistic system of very few individuals. There are great people in women's soccer in Canada but they are saints and few and far between and struggle against a system instead of being supported by it.

The knocks on women's soccer are well known - money, geography, attendance.  But they exist in many countries in the world who have gone forward.  Women want professionalization in the purest sense of the word:

Professionalization is a social process by which any trade or occupation transforms itself into a true "profession of the highest integrity and competence."

They want to be treated and to treat the game in a professional manner.  In terms of their training, approach to the game and competition.  People hear the word "professionalization" and immediately translate it into money.  That's the secondary aspect of the word in women's soccer.

We need club programs like that all over the country run by great supporters of women's soccer who are enabled, facilitated and supported.  However it can be accomplished creatively.  Because clearly from the past couple decades without inroads - unless there is positive movement in that direction we'll be sitting here 25 years from now lamenting the vacuum again.

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3 hours ago, Vic said:

I'm pretty sure Carolina Morace didn't hire John Herdman, nor Even Pellerud Morace, nor Neil Turnbull Pellerud.  Nor Benito Floro Octaviao Zambrano, or Stephen Hart Floro. Nor any of our national team coaches in any sport via their predecessor.

Hiring is the domain of the organization, not the incumbent.

My issue isn't with the hiring, the CSA have a good batting record and I trust they will do a fine job there. My issue is with leadership in Canadian women's soccer. Leadership in the women's national programs is through the roof.  We are and have been incredibly gifted to have strong talent there going back decades.

Outside the national programs though, comparative to the rest of the developed world in elite women's soccer - Canada has stood still for decades while other countries have gone through the roof. We are an embarrassment on the world stage for our stature and someone or something has to take the fall for that.  And someone has to be tasked 100% with fixing it. And not a national team coach moonlighting at it and balancing the massive job of our national programs with at least an inkling of vested interest.

What is the legacy of John Herdman in elite women's soccer in Canada (outside our national programs)?  Or Carolina Morace?  Or Even Pellerud? Is there leadership there?  What have the keys opened, created and improved there? I know what other people have done on their own (like L1O) and it is fantastic and inspirational.  Why do we have decades of vacuum and why is taking the women's game forward left to these people?

I see what a lot of other countries are doing first-hand and what really saddens me is seeing all the great supporters of women's soccer in these countries engaged, empowered and given a voice and a purpose and then coming back home where elite women's soccer is a monopolistic system of very few individuals. There are great people in women's soccer in Canada but they are saints and few and far between and struggle against a system instead of being supported by it.

The knocks on women's soccer are well known - money, geography, attendance.  But they exist in many countries in the world who have gone forward.  Women want professionalization in the purest sense of the word:

Professionalization is a social process by which any trade or occupation transforms itself into a true "profession of the highest integrity and competence."

They want to be treated and to treat the game in a professional manner.  In terms of their training, approach to the game and competition.  People hear the word "professionalization" and immediately translate it into money.  That's the secondary aspect of the word in women's soccer.

We need club programs like that all over the country run by great supporters of women's soccer who are enabled, facilitated and supported.  However it can be accomplished creatively.  Because clearly from the past couple decades without inroads - unless there is positive movement in that direction we'll be sitting here 25 years from now lamenting the vacuum again.

I agree that Herdman should not have anything to do with choosing his replacement not even recommending anyone.  It is none of his business.  But didn't he say that the team should now be coached by a woman. 

 

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Labbe and Sheridan had a really bad last game with their respective NWSL teams.  Herdman may have problems finding a decent goalkeeper.  Labbe has always been suspect, but I expected more from Sheridan. 

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I watched Labbe's last game, and I didn't think she was suspect.  For some reason, Zadorsky was benched for a second game, and the defense was not very good.  So many chances put through behind the back line, ending up with only Labbe having to make the one-on-one save.  Blaming that debacle on her isn't fair.  I think she has improved her command of high balls and is playing better than ever.

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Would be nice to see a former player step up but who? Moscato or Gayle possibly?? Or Wilkinson? All 3 have had some sort of coaching role in the youth set up and current senior squad. Unsure if Gayle is still part of the coaching staff Herdman has. 

 Laura Harvey would be a good fit if the CSA goes that route. Not sure when her contract is up with the Reign.

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Kieran Theivam @KiersTheivam 3h3 hours ago   Replying to @KiersTheivam

With Harvey, Hayes and Cushing out of the running, and Mo Marley being non-committal, it doesn't leave many options for a job that, in theory, should be one of the most appealing in world football. Raked 3rd in the world and have world class facilities at St George's Park.

  Richard Farley @richardfarley    Richard Farley Retweeted Kieran Theivam

Herdman is the last of the finalists still "in the running." The FA really should at least get in touch with Parsons, but good luck getting him to leave the States/the Thorns job.

thrace❄️ @thrace   Replying to @richardfarley

I'm unsure what it would take to pull Herdman from Canada, where he seems to have a lot of control all the way down through youth and has formed partnership w/ Sinclair. ($$$$$)

Kieran Theivam @KiersTheivam   Replying to @thrace @richardfarley

England contract Sampson was on estimated to be £150,000 per year. My guess is that will go up based on where England sit now compared with four years ago. Not many contracts out there offering that amount of money I shouldn't think.

Richard Farley @richardfarley    Replying to @KiersTheivam @thrace

I am not ITK on this, by far, but I’m under the impression that salary package could double for the new coach. I don’t think Herdman would even be in the running this deep in the process if he hadn't expressed interest (multiple times).

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[ 1 ]  Stunning  news. I had to take a double take. ( It feels like April Fools Day. )  That said : congrats to John Herdman. and congrats to Kenneth Heiner-Moller!

[ 2 ]

Canada SoccerVerified account @CanadaSoccerEN 36m36 minutes ago    Canada Soccer announces new leadership of Men's National Team Program under John Herdman. #CanMNT

https://www.canadasoccer.com/canada-soccer-announces-new-leadership-of-men-s-national-team-program-under-john-herdman--p161330-preview-1 

Canada SoccerVerified account @CanadaSoccerEN 35m35 minutes ago   BREAKING: John Herdman named Men's National Team Head Coach and National EXCEL Director

Canada SoccerVerified account @CanadaSoccerEN 16m16 minutes ago    Kenneth Heiner-Møller is now the Head Coach of the Women's National Team. #CANWNT https://www.canadasoccer.com/index.php?pid=4643&t=profile& 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Heiner-Møller

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 England is no tire fire. The FA spend 21 million euros  annually on women soccer  which is roughly  31.2  million cad .  Additionally,  the FA  Women's Super League ( FA WSL )  is going completely professional in 2019:   ten to fourteen clubs with 20-player full-time rosters which would be  about 200 to 280 pro contracts  -- the majority going to English players. To me, England manager job is a very attractive position/opportunity that John  Herdman has turned down.

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