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Start all CPL and MLSclubs in the same round,  and the winner of pslq or L1O if you need to even it out,  and seed by winning percentage.  That the leagues are treated equal,  and teams are rewarded for how they're doing in their respective leagues. 

Oh, and Ottawa I guess.

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13 minutes ago, Winnipeg Fury said:

 

The other question is how many Canadians on the field for Voyageurs Cup.

What is MLS doing now for V-Cup.........3 Canadians  ?  Fu#king rubbish !

That number better increase significantly next year.

 

 

 

I'm calling it now:

The CSA will impose a CPL quota on the Canadian Championship. 6 Canadians at all time on the pitch.

Ladies and gentlemen, we got ourselves a tournament.

You want the V Cup? Win with some goddamn Canadians. Peace, I'm out...obama_mic_drop.gif

 

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I think, related to this question of the Voyageurs Cup, that we should use existing seeding to begin. 

First Year of CPL

L10 and Quebec play off, then the winner and 7 CPL teams play a knockout round, home and away. Down to 4. Winners are drawn against Fury and the MLS clubs. That for the first season. That ensures all CPL clubs play either an MLS or Fury at home, better than yet another match against a CPL team, when you are already going to have 4 in a season. And better fan draws for CPL teams.

If we have 8 teams in CPL, there are some systems that would work, most are a bit complicated though.

It would mean 13 teams in total, not 12, I speculated on this here: 

 

Second Year and ff

Then convert and alter that after the first season of CPL and the first participation in the V-cup. In the second season, you can do various alternatives. One would be to give a bye into quarter finals to the CPL winner. Another, additional, would be a bye to every previous year's semi finalists, to start in quarter finals. Or you could set up a coefficient for the clubs that they carry from year to year on the basis of V-Cup results. Etc. 

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5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

First Year of CPL

L10 and Quebec play off, then the winner and 7 CPL teams play a knockout round, home and away. Down to 4. Winners are drawn against Fury and the MLS clubs. That for the first season. That ensures all CPL clubs play either an MLS or Fury at home, better than yet another match against a CPL team, when you are already going to have 4 in a season. And better fan draws for CPL teams.

I don't see how that is viable from a business standpoint. The CSA cannot treat Fury as if they are "above" CanPL. The would undermine the league in the eyes of spectators, media and journalists.

If it was up to me I'd start them all in the competition at the same time using random draws. So what if TFC has to face the L1O winner in the first round? That's the kind of match up people want to see in this competition: David v Goliath. If there would be an uneven number of teams to start then and only then, would I make the L1O and Quebec play-in to one spot.

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6 minutes ago, ted said:

I don't see how that is viable from a business standpoint. The CSA cannot treat Fury as if they are "above" CanPL. The would undermine the league in the eyes of spectators, media and journalists.

If it was up to me I'd start them all in the competition at the same time using random draws. So what if TFC has to face the L1O winner in the first round? That's the kind of match up people want to see in this competition: David v Goliath. If there would be an uneven number of teams to start then and only then, would I make the L1O and Quebec play-in to one spot.

This, except my preference would be to invite as many L1O/PLSQ teams in as necessary to make the numbers work. For example, 7 CPL, 3 MLS, 1... ugh... USL, so that's 11 teams. Let's get it up to 16 by inviting 5 teams from L1O/PLSQ. Maybe they have a qualifying tournament with the top 5 in each league or something playing for those 5 spots.

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12 minutes ago, Kent said:

This, except my preference would be to invite as many L1O/PLSQ teams in as necessary to make the numbers work. For example, 7 CPL, 3 MLS, 1... ugh... USL, so that's 11 teams. Let's get it up to 16 by inviting 5 teams from L1O/PLSQ. Maybe they have a qualifying tournament with the top 5 in each league or something playing for those 5 spots.

Do we have to invite them? ?

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^ Of course they do. And those four teams have existing rosters that played in last year's competition so of course they get seeded. If you're worried about how that looks, I'd be more worried how it would look if the LPSQ/L1O winner defeats their CPL opponent to get to the next round. That is where it is important to seed the Div3 club against the strongest CPL club at that point in the season.

 

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Guys, there isn't a federation in the world that does not seed teams for the national Cup. They are seeded in function of level of league or division, and other committments (eg continental competition commitments). And often, in function of previous results. 

Ottawa has participated without interrruption for a few years and has been a hard-fighting semi-finalist. 

If you think that the way to mete out Canadian soccer justice is to stick it too them, then you are on the side of the entire proposal failing. That is not professional, serious or a good way to bring them into the fold. 

For me, this year's semi finalist teams are seeded, no question, for 2019.

For 2020, you can set something else up, but I'd still keep that formula, with all teams at least playing from quarter finals on. Treating a USL team as a pariah because they were not convinced by the CPL is vengeful, and has no place in organising a sports competition.

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1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I'll gladly live with the fact we could be first

Hell, we are already first.

We are the only country in the First World without a first tier national league.

We are first in disorganization. We are first in lack of results in function of GDP per capita (or tied with Singapore maybe?)

We are first rate chumps in world soccer. And we are thinking in ways that will ensure our CPL is FIRST major national soccer league to fold in decades.

Don't you think that is precedent enough without having to insist on a petty FIRST with the Voyageurs Cup?

 

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Guys, there isn't a federation in the world that does not seed teams for the national Cup. They are seeded in function of level of league or division, and other committments (eg continental competition commitments). And often, in function of previous results. 

Ottawa has participated without interrruption for a few years and has been a hard-fighting semi-finalist. 

If you think that the way to mete out Canadian soccer justice is to stick it too them, then you are on the side of the entire proposal failing. That is not professional, serious or a good way to bring them into the fold. 

For me, this year's semi finalist teams are seeded, no question, for 2019.

For 2020, you can set something else up, but I'd still keep that formula, with all teams at least playing from quarter finals on. Treating a USL team as a pariah because they were not convinced by the CPL is vengeful, and has no place in organising a sports competition.

Real question. Are there countries that seed second tier teams ahead of first tier teams? Or that at least allow for that to happen given the correct hypothetical results?

I personally am not aware of that type of situation and it’s one that seems odd to me. The only cups I am at all familiar with are ours, US, and the FA Cup. All three of those have the top tier teams enter at the same round and don’t have any teams enter after them. So that’s probably why it feels so very wrong to have Ottawa (who I believe is considered 2nd tier by way of inheritance from the US system) enter later in the competition than tier 1 teams (CPL).

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22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

We are first in lack of results in function of GDP per capita (or tied with Singapore maybe?)

I think GDP would be the more accurate measure. If you look at countries at the top of the GDP per capita list it is filled with mostly soccer minnows. Depending on whose numbers you use, the top are Qatar, Luxembourg, Singapore, Brunei, which have all played in fewer World Cups and ranked lower than us. Others ahead of us in GDP per capita Kuwait, UAE, San Marino, Bahrain, and Taiwan.

All that being said, the point you meant to make is very much correct. We have to be the number one under achiever in the world. Hopefully CPL will help to change that.

P.S. The list I was looking at was based on GDP (PPP). With GDP (nominal) there are fewer soccer minnows ahead of us, but there are still several. I don’t really know the difference to be perfectly honest between the two types.

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I mean I obviously want cpl to be better than USL but to make the Voyageurs cup work we either need to add pdl or more L1O/PLSQ. Or have the four semi finalist get a bye, at least for the first year, then have cpl and the winner of L1O/PLSQ playoffs play and the winners go on to play the 4  semi finalist.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hell, we are already first.

We are the only country in the First World without a first tier national league.

We are first in disorganization. We are first in lack of results in function of GDP per capita (or tied with Singapore maybe?)

We are first rate chumps in world soccer. And we are thinking in ways that will ensure our CPL is FIRST major national soccer league to fold in decades.

Don't you think that is precedent enough without having to insist on a petty FIRST with the Voyageurs Cup?

 

So...

having them start in a random draw with other MLS clubs

seeking a champions league berth to attach to the cup

modest budget to allow organic growth and prevent early failures 

Not competing directly with MLS teams in their own cities in year 1

...

You sure you don't have an MLS or USL game on PVR to watch?

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

I think GDP would be the more accurate measure. If you look at countries at the top of the GDP per capita list it is filled with mostly soccer minnows. Depending on whose numbers you use, the top are Qatar, Luxembourg, Singapore, Brunei, which have all played in fewer World Cups and ranked lower than us. Others ahead of us in GDP per capita Kuwait, UAE, San Marino, Bahrain, and Taiwan.

All that being said, the point you meant to make is very much correct. We have to be the number one under achiever in the world. Hopefully CPL will help to change that.

P.S. The list I was looking at was based on GDP (PPP). With GDP (nominal) there are fewer soccer minnows ahead of us, but there are still several. I don’t really know the difference to be perfectly honest between the two types.

There was an interesting article pre World Cup in the Econmist about GDP and size of the country in relation to World Cup performance over the years.  We were one of the significant under performers with the US.  A lot of the speculation in the article was that the MLS encourages mediocrity rather than excellence.  I took that with a grain of salt as if that was the case Canada would be a significant under achiever in hockey and the US in basketball as both those top leagues use a similar structure. 

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Glad to see everyone having fun with musings about the Vs Cup format.  Seriously.  And I'm flexible and I'm sure the format will be to as the number of teams participating in the competition varies year to year.  I'd rather a straight up knock out style tourney but I think there will  have to be some seeding.  No one, or next to no one in Toronto is going to watch TFC play some amateur side from Quebec.  Great fun for the Quebec side and their contingent but otherwise terrible optics.  I'm doubting the Vs Cup will be a revenue generating venture for any of the teams participating in the early stages.

Which gets me to the aft part of my train of thought.  Hard to imagine any of the amateur organizations, probably some of the CPL franchises as well, being able to finance participating in Champions League on the very, very, outside chance they win through.  Then what?  Does the CSA offer assistance?  I'd guess CONCACAF offers financial assistance to some of the smaller federations should their representative make CCL but hard to imagine something like that (if it exists) for any Canadian representative, no matter how humble their means.   

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Just to respond to the arguments: if the CSA decides that there is no bye, and all teams are in from say round of 16, that is fine. But that adds 8 matches to the season of the potential finalists. And teams will rebel against that model. 

As for Ottawa, if they do not deserve anything from previous participation, I cannot see how MLS teams could get that privilege and they not. If CPL is our Division 1, they have to be all seeded top, and the ones in leagues sanctioned by the US in there with Ottawa. And if we do that, the teams will rebel. 

All I am saying: let's respect the existing results and participation up to now for teams with continual participation in the V-Cup (which is our cup, after all, by playing it Ottawa is respecting the Voyageurs), and the following year, redo the seeding system on a new criteria. Otherwise we are remaking the Voyageurs Cup as a tool for getting back at a team we are collectively angry with. And I for one did not pay for the piece of silverware thinking that was its purpose.

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9 hours ago, Kent said:

Real question. Are there countries that seed second tier teams ahead of first tier teams? Or that at least allow for that to happen given the correct hypothetical results?

I personally am not aware of that type of situation and it’s one that seems odd to me. The only cups I am at all familiar with are ours, US, and the FA Cup. All three of those have the top tier teams enter at the same round and don’t have any teams enter after them. So that’s probably why it feels so very wrong to have Ottawa (who I believe is considered 2nd tier by way of inheritance from the US system) enter later in the competition than tier 1 teams (CPL).

I think most countries do it this way. First, lower tiers play knockouts in early rounds, home and away or single matches. 

Then, as the competition progresses, teams are added, 3rd tier, 2nd tier. Often, due to odd numbers, teams are drawn a bye into a following round, like happens occasionally in tennis. This is just to solve problems of equal numbers. 

In most leagues the top tier teams come in in a later round, often round of 32. As well, in most leagues the clubs in a continental competition get some privilege and do not start as soon as the top tier clubs not paying a continental Cup. To reduce dates and fixtures. 

It is true, as said that rarely a lower tier team comes in after a higher tier. Maybe the case of previous year's cup winner getting a bye and that team being a 2nd tier team. But I do not know. In Wales, just looked: only teams in Welsh sanctioned football play their FA Cup.

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44 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just to respond to the arguments: if the CSA decides that there is no bye, and all teams are in from say round of 16, that is fine. But that adds 8 matches to the season of the potential finalists. And teams will rebel against that model. 

As for Ottawa, if they do not deserve anything from previous participation, I cannot see how MLS teams could get that privilege and they not. If CPL is our Division 1, they have to be all seeded top, and the ones in leagues sanctioned by the US in there with Ottawa. And if we do that, the teams will rebel. 

All I am saying: let's respect the existing results and participation up to now for teams with continual participation in the V-Cup (which is our cup, after all, by playing it Ottawa is respecting the Voyageurs), and the following year, redo the seeding system on a new criteria. Otherwise we are remaking the Voyageurs Cup as a tool for getting back at a team we are collectively angry with. And I for one did not pay for the piece of silverware thinking that was its purpose.

The US Cup has MLS sides starting in the fourth round but they only play single elimination games

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3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...Otherwise we are remaking the Voyageurs Cup as a tool for getting back at a team we are collectively angry with...

Also makes sense not to add roster related rules that have been deliberately engineered to help a weaker side qualify, if you want to build a case for having multiple entrants in the Champions League down the road. A sensible balance needs to be found on the CanCon thing.

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59 minutes ago, An Observer said:

The US Cup has MLS sides starting in the fourth round but they only play single elimination games

Yeah, exactly. I am totally fine with the competition moving to single knockout. I think my preferred format for the early years at least is a straight up draw with single knockout.

And I don’t think anything I have ever suggested is sticking it to Ottawa. My suggestions are just to not put CPL at a disadvantage.

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Single knock-out makes sense in England, where fixtures are terribly tight (24 teams in many lower divisions). And where away supporters can travel. 

For us, it only makes sense if the match is held in the stadium of the lower division team, automatically. 

Otherwise, if it's a pure draw, tell me that we are going to do single match knock-outs, and Victoria has to play in Toronto one year, then away to Halifax, the third year away to Impact.

You are proposing that a CPL team could spend literally years before its fans see a Voyageur's Cup match? Or that TFC has to play at home vs. a team its fans are not overly excited about seeing, with a weaker gate, and the CPL team fans have no chance to see a top MLS side and dream of taking it down?

 

 

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