CPL Canadian Player Quotas

[mpg_29]

How many Canadian nationals should be the requirement for CPL rosters?

[Complete Homer]

20% Y1,  25% Y2, 30% Y3... 50% Y7 and then hold

I'm fine with a more aggressive approach, more worried about sufficient quality year 1 and 2

[mpg_29]

9 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

20% Y1,  25% Y2, 30% Y3... 50% Y7 and then hold

Agree.  It needs to start low then escalate.  Though I'd even be OK with maxing out at 33-40%. That would still be roughly 8-10 players per team on a 25 man roster.

[mlsintoronto]

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

[Ansem]

19 minutes ago, mlsintoronto said:

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

Sure, but the starting XI will be heavy on import with most of the Canadians on the squad being sub in at some point, more so in the first years.

quotas or limitation on import, the result will be the same

Also another important point I raised during the SG meeting:

2019 V Cup will be a critical tournament for CPL

• Expect MLS Teams to field their A teams to send the message that CPL is not only a bit lower in level, but they will aim at blowing CPL team out of the tournament which cannot happen. Losing in a competitive manner is ok, being blown out isn't and I'm sure CPL as a league is fully aware of this.

So yeah, I maintain heavy on import with 3 Canadians starting in that tournament

[Zem]

33 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

20% Y1,  25% Y2, 30% Y3... 50% Y7 and then hold

I'm fine with a more aggressive approach, more worried about sufficient quality year 1 and 2

 

21 minutes ago, mlsintoronto said:

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

Yes, I was going to point out that domestic player quotas, especially presented as percentages don't really make practical sense. It should, as Paul suggests, be like every other league in the world where domestic players are treated as the norm and foreign players are regulated as the exception.

I would say that a foreign player limit of 10 in the first year is actually very realistic, and would be nice since it would make it literally impossible for a team to not have a Canadian on the field at any time (aside from red cards). That likely sounds very aggressive, but we should remember that we're only starting with 6 clubs, which would only need 12-15 Canadians apiece to fill out a roster of 22-25 players.

Not to mention that we want to see some former academy kids and some top D3 players in the depth ranks of CPL clubs anyway, and that there will certainly be some Canadian professional players who will want to move from the American leagues and from Europe to the new Canadian league.

[mpg_29]

2 minutes ago, mlsintoronto said:

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

It would be a bad idea to start with aggressive quotas imo...

Too many people view this league as a pseudo-MNT training camp/program. Successful pro leagues are anything but.

There is a need for quotas but I'd rather have a certain quality on field product that people will watch.  If we can get untapped talent from around the globe that would that would be good for the league/product and Canadian players they play alongside.

Even at a 20% quota roster in an 8 team league that would be about 40 Canadian players playing professionally that didn't make it elsewhere,  33% quota about 66 Canadian players. 40% quota 80 Canadian players.

 

[harrycoyster]

5 minutes ago, Zem said:

 

Yes, I was going to point out that domestic player quotas, especially presented as percentages don't really make practical sense. It should, as Paul suggests, be like every other league in the world where domestic players are treated as the norm and foreign players are regulated as the exception.

I would say that a foreign player limit of 10 in the first year is actually very realistic, and would be nice since it would make it literally impossible for a team to not have a Canadian on the field at any time (aside from red cards). That likely sounds very aggressive, but we should remember that we're only starting with 6 clubs, which would only need 12-15 Canadians apiece to fill out a roster of 22-25 players.

Not to mention that we want to see some former academy kids and some top D3 players in the depth ranks of CPL clubs anyway, and that there will certainly be some Canadian professional players who will want to move from the American leagues and from Europe to the new Canadian league.

This. Percentages are dumb. Give each team 10 international slots for Year 1 and reevaluate in 5 years. Having a percentage that changes every year will create a lot of unnecessary roster instability before the academies can kick in.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

This. Percentages are dumb. Give each team 10 international slots for Year 1 and reevaluate in 5 years. Having a percentage that changes every year will create a lot of unnecessary roster instability before the academies can kick in.

I think it will be more than 10 though

[Complete Homer]

45 minutes ago, mlsintoronto said:

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

a) Probably a better way to phrase it, I guess quota makes it sound like Canadians are inherently inferior

b )  No escalation anymore? Or no decision on that? Sounded like escalation was being considered with the notes from the Wanderers 

[mpg_29]

9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I think it will be more than 10 though

Should be 15 initially. Dropping 1 each year until hits 10.

If you look at Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton rosters right now its basically 14-15 internationals and 8 Canadians.

[Kent]

Glad to hear some input on the topic from Paul Beirne himself.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The idea of growing the Canadian content could turn people off. If we assume import player = talented and Canadian player = untalented then growing the Canadian content from year to year means you have to keep watering down the talent on each team. Add to that the possibility that the league could be expanding in those first few years and you put the player pool under more strain. The end result could be something to the effect of CPL teams losing Voyageurs Cup games against MLS team 2-0 or 3-0 in year 1, and then the results get steadily more lopsided year after year. I think the opposite is better. Start with aggressive Canadian content, maybe get smoked in the Voyageurs Cup 6 or 7 nothing, but then do better each year after that. Teams can improve due to player cohesion, more interest from Canadian players that are playing abroad, etc.

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

a) Probably a better way to phrase it, I guess quota makes it sound like Canadians are inherently inferior

I think he means that, since there will be more Canadians in the league than international players, it makes more sense to set an international player limit than to mandate a set number of Canadians.

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Should be 15 initially. Dropping 1 each year until hits 10.

If you look at Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton rosters right now its basically 14-15 internationals and 8 Canadians.

Given the rhetoric the league has gone with so far, I don't see the rosters being any less than half Canadian from the get go. Canadians> initial quality.

[mpg_29]

6 minutes ago, Kent said:

Glad to hear some input on the topic from Paul Beirne himself.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The idea of growing the Canadian content could turn people off. If we assume import player = talented and Canadian player = untalented then growing the Canadian content from year to year means you have to keep watering down the talent on each team. Add to that the possibility that the league could be expanding in those first few years and you put the player pool under more strain. The end result could be something to the effect of CPL teams losing Voyageurs Cup games against MLS team 2-0 or 3-0 in year 1, and then the results get steadily more lopsided year after year. I think the opposite is better. Start with aggressive Canadian content, maybe get smoked in the Voyageurs Cup 6 or 7 nothing, but then do better each year after that. Teams can improve due to player cohesion, more interest from Canadian players that are playing abroad, etc.

This seems like a dumb idea and would damage the league if anything...also why would Canadians players come home to play in a league that gets smoked to an MLS team 6 or 7 nothing?

[ironcub14]

Going to play devil's advocate and go with what may be an unpopular opinion and say that: the survival and success of the league in the first 5-10 years is much more important than a harsh cap on the number of roster spots for non-Canadians on CPL rosters.

I'm sure it's being debated endlessly, but for the sake of league quality, I would hope the cap on foreigner roster spots is 12 or higher for a 25-man roster. Start high, and then slowly let the cap fall over the years.

I think fans could be quite appeased with a high number of foreigner spots, as long as you treat Americans as foreigners.

[Ansem]

if we can get most of the Canadian Internationals that plays overseas in D2 and D1 leagues to be the bulk of our domestic players, than we'll be ok like Paul said.

But if most of them are from USL, L1O and NASL then, we won't be fine and we'll need the high number of imports to help them grow.

2019 V Cup will be crucial for CPL in terms of credibility. You can't be blown out by MLS sides (who will field a strong side), that would damage the league's perception. Losing is ok, but CPL teams needs to be competitive the entire game.

That's my thought

[Cheeta]

Me thinks there is going to be some serious poaching of Canadians who are lingering in MLS acadamies.  

Yes quality of play concerns can't be exaggerated but I'm for casting a wide net.  The more earth you till the more diamonds you'll find.

Maximum of 8 imports on the game day roster.

[harrycoyster]

4 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Me thinks there is going to be some serious poaching of Canadians who are lingering in MLS acadamies.  

How exactly is that a good thing for Canadian soccer? I want as many Canadians as possible in MLS academies. The CPL should grow its own talent. 

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

1 hour ago, mlsintoronto said:

allow me to manage expectations here.  You won't hear us talking about Canadian Quotas in CPL.  You'll hear us talking about limits on imports.  And the numbers will be way more aggressive than you're suggesting here.  The commitment to Canadians is real.

WHAT I AM ABOUT TO WRITE IN NO WAY SHOULD BE ATTRIBUTED TO PAUL. Rather, it's what I've pieced together over the past two years from talking to multiple people. 

Backing up what Paul is saying, from the beginning, I've been told that there was a resistance to requiring X amount of Canadians per team.

That opinion is informed by the CFL owners, who has experience with the "non-import" rule in the CFL. They feel that the rule artificially inflates the salary of Canadians and puts a financial strain on their ability to build the best rosters possible. I'm fairly certain TFC argued the same thing back in 2008 after having to vastly overpay for Canadians in year one.

Although restricting "imports" creates the same end result as requiring x amount of Canadians it likely doesn't have the same impact on salaries. An economist can probably explain why better than I.

However, it's also always been stressed that there is no way this league isn't made up of a majority of Canadian players. The economics of it will dictate that.

The question we should be asking is whether there will be anything put in place to ensure the percentage of Canadian playing minutes is protected -- i.e a starters quota like we saw in the old NASL or in the Voyageurs Cup now. Unfortunately, the idea of a starters quota has also been resisted from I've been told.  

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, harrycoyster said:

How exactly is that a good thing for Canadian soccer? I want as many Canadians as possible in MLS academies. The CPL should grow its own talent. 

Those players in Canadian academies needs to play, what are the odds of them seeing consistent minutes in MLS?

10 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Me thinks there is going to be some serious poaching of Canadians who are lingering in MLS acadamies.  

I'd poach Ascendo MX

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Those players in Canadian academies needs to play, what are the odds of them seeing consistent minutes in MLS?

Academy age players need to develop. If they are under 20 and getting minutes in the USL/PDL leave them be. I want the CPL to supplement the MLS pipeline of Canadian talent, not to poach it. 

 

[ironcub14]

5 minutes ago, Duane Rollins1555362254 said:

Although restricting "imports" creates the same end result as requiring x amount of Canadians it likely doesn't have the same impact on salaries. An economist can probably explain why better than I.

I'll take a quick stab. If the only limits on a roster was a ceiling cap on foreigners and a ceiling cap on players, then a manager or a GM has some flexibility on how many Canadians they choose to have on their roster.

If there was a 12-man cap on foreigner roster spots, and a 25-man cap on senior roster spots, a GM can choose to have 12 foreigners and 11 Canadians for a 23-man roster, or 12 foreigners and 13 Canadians for a 25-man roster, or etc.

Since the GM doesn't have to sign a minimum number of Canadians in this situation, he will definitely have more flexibility and more market power in negotiating salaries with Canadians. As he would with the foreigners as well.

[harrycoyster]

8 minutes ago, Duane Rollins1555362254 said:

The question we should be asking is whether there will be anything put in place to ensure the percentage of Canadian playing minutes is protected -- i.e a starters quota like we saw in the old NASL or in the Voyageurs Cup now. Unfortunately, the idea of a starters quota has also been resisted from I've been told.  

From everything I've read regarding minutes quotas in world football, it seems that they have at best a trivial effect on player development. Age quotas (X number of minutes must be given to players under age X) accomplish a similar task and promulgate academy growth.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Duane Rollins1555362254 said:

Although restricting "imports" creates the same end result as requiring x amount of Canadians it likely doesn't have the same impact on salaries. An economist can probably explain why better than I.

It's all about bargaining power, I think. If you use quotas and staring quotas and we all kind of know that the pool is thin, you'd expect International Canadians playing oversea in D1 and D2 asking for contracts way above their value. The league needs Canadians on teams and on the starting XI and there aren't that many at the highest level to go around, so they would value themselves way higher than some owners would be willing to pay

If you go with the "import limits", that doesn't necessarily means that you get to start. It levels the playing field at the bargaining table...

That's my understanding...if I make sense...

10 minutes ago, Duane Rollins1555362254 said:

However, it's also always been stressed that there is no way this league isn't made up of a majority of Canadian players. The economics of it will dictate that.

I guess that's fine and it justifies why owners would want to avoid overpaying Canadians so they can acquire good international quality, which I presume would be part of the starting line up most of the time

16 minutes ago, Duane Rollins1555362254 said:

The question we should be asking is whether there will be anything put in place to ensure the percentage of Canadian playing minutes is protected -- i.e a starters quota like we saw in the old NASL or in the Voyageurs Cup now. Unfortunately, the idea of a starters quota has also been resisted from I've been told.  

I still feel that there should be a balance. Sure, the team can be mostly Canadians but I tend to disagree with starting quotas. Starting should still be earned and be a source of motivation to work 10 times harder to get a starting spot. Internal competition brings excellence. Guaranteed staring spots for Canadians is just not a good idea and it drives up the price for Canadians. (Except V Cup)

You can mitigate that with limiting the number of imports where the starting XI would be heavy on imports but you'd still have Canadians starting and being sub in. Quotas defeats the purpose and unnecessarily drives up prices.