CPL General

[harrycoyster]

33 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Shout and stamp your feet all you like, MLS is still a fringe sport and you know it. Lacks any meaningful TV revenue because nobody outside MLS cities gives a fig about it.

I'm not saying MLS isn't still a small league by American standards, by it does rank somewhere between 10th and 14th in the world in league revenue.

I'd also love to hear your definition of "meaningful TV revenue". MLS makes $90 million a season in the US not counting local broadcasts and somewhere around $20 million a season from non-domestic markets. It's not close to the Big 4 American sports and the Big 5 European leagues but it's just about the best TV deal otherwise. The CFL makes around $50 million a year from all of its TV rights for comparison.

Edited June 14, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Gordon]

26 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I'm not saying MLS isn't still a small league by American standards, by it does rank somewhere between 10th and 14th in the world in league revenue.

I'd also love to hear your definition of "meaningful TV revenue". MLS makes $90 million a season in the US not counting local broadcasts and somewhere around $20 million a season from non-domestic markets. It's not close to the Big 4 American sports and the Big 5 European leagues but it's just about the best TV deal otherwise. The CFL makes around $50 million a year from all of its TV rights for comparison.

MLS tv rights are bundled with the two US national teams. USSF pretends that MLS makes up half the value so MLS does not take $90 million, only $45 million (about $45 million more than the actual value of the rights). The reality is that NCAA women's softball has better tv ratings than MLS.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Gordon said:

MLS tv rights are bundled with the two US national teams. USSF pretends that MLS makes up half the value so MLS does not take $90 million, only $45 million (about $45 million more than the actual value of the rights). The reality is that NCAA women's softball has better tv ratings than MLS.

This is incorrect in a bunch of ways that it would take an essay to correct, but I understand the misconception; the TV deals aren't clear. Suffice to say that MLS teams got $6 million each from the league this year in collective TV money, so the league made over $132 million in TV deals in the 2016 season. Teams got $5.5 million in 2015. 

NCAA softball averages better numbers than MLS games because only the very end of the Softball playoffs make national television. If they broadcast regular season games the numbers would be terrible. Additionally, MLS has really, really good numbers in the 18-35 male demographic (the highest value adult demographic). That makes a huge difference to advertisers.

Edited June 14, 2017 by harrycoyster

[red card]

The most watched soccer league on Canadian tv is not MLS. It's EPL which on average gets 2x higher audiences despite the time zone issue. If you include national teams, then it is also behind the Canadian women's team. MLS is not even the most watched soccer league in the US.

The argument for playoffs is similar to the people who thought soccer could only be sold by having shootouts, 35 yard offside line and catering to soccer moms from the 70s to the 90s. Only when MLS finally threw aside these North American based thinking, the hard core soccer fans in the US finally started to pay attention. Their passion and energy brought in the casual fans.

[Complete Homer]

I'm just glad we pulled through and found another topic to yell at each other over

On the whole, I agree with @harrycoyster on the playoff question, but I think this should quickly approach the "agree to disagree" phase 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Complete Homer

[dyslexic nam]

Yeah, regarding the playoffs issue, it seems to be a case entirely of personal preference.  Old world model (soccer must feel European) vs new world model (all NA sports have playoffs so why deviate?).  Anyone who thinks they have, or have articulated,  any sort of checkmate argument is entirely mistaken.  Some league have playoffs.  They do well.  Some leagues don't have playoffs.  They also do well. 

[ironcub14]

I think what some Voyageurs don't seem to understand is that for both MLS and CPL to succeed and find a financially sustainable level of acceptance, or basically for CPL to not die in the graveyard of North American soccer leagues of the past, that MLS had to, and CPL has to, find an acceptable level of balance in terms of structural organization that satisfies both the mainstream general sports fan audience as much as the hardcore football supporters.

And that happy medium level of balance 100% includes the presence of playoffs when and only when there is no pro/rel. If the league does not have pro/rel, CPL must have playoffs to be financially sustainable and noteworthy in Canadian sports media. If you're posting here dreaming about CPL being a carbon copy of European football, you're just writing pure fantasy fiction at this point, association football in Canada has nowhere the popularity that it does in Europe and South America, and it has nothing to do with MLS having playoffs or having no pro/rel. We have over 100 years of history here of hockey, basketball, Canadian football, baseball, etc. Soccer's been playing catch-up to these four in Canada for 100 years, don't ever forget that.

The fact that somebody even had to post a rant in favour of playoffs for CPL amuses me, the fact that somebody even had to actually write one. Thanks for taking one for the team, Harry.

[Rheo]

Checking out the You Beauty, episode 18.  It's two guys from Soccer Nova Scotia talking about CPL (edit, this was recorded before the AGM and announcement as they announce in 19) and what they know and the interactions they've had.  A few interesting things

-They have reservations in general and about how it will affect the growth and development of the game in NS.  The longer I listen the more they're in the dark with lots of speculation and local NS politics

-Met twice with them to ask them for advice and to answer questions.  

-Were told academy program something "that could happen in the future but not now"

-Told not a feeder to MLS but a stand alone league

-Really want more contact with them and it should of started already

Off to listen to the Derek Martin of SEA now and I'll post anything interesting

Edited June 14, 2017 by Rheo

[Complete Homer]

41 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Checking out the You Beauty, episode 18.  It's two guys from Soccer Nova Scotia talking about CPL (edit, this was recorded before the AGM and announcement as they announce in 19) and what they know and the interactions they've had.  A few interesting things

-They have reservations in general and about how it will affect the growth and development of the game in NS.  The longer I listen the more they're in the dark with lots of speculation and local NS politics

-Met twice with them to ask them for advice and to answer questions.  

-Were told academy program something "that could happen in the future but not now"

-Told not a feeder to MLS but a stand alone league

-Really want more contact with them and it should of started already

Off to listen to the Derek Martin of SEA now and I'll post anything interesting

Maybe we're just paying too much attention to this, but it annoys me a little when I see podcasts/radio shows do a discussion on CPL without actually looking at what is out there, often going as far as to call it "all rumours and speculation" despite the presence of official statements. Haven't listened to this particular podcast, but have noticed it frequently on some of the Canadian soccer podcasts out there

I mean, jeez, do your basic research before putting something like that out there. The overall tone is definitely migrating towards being positive about the project, but I wonder how many casual listeners have the baseline assumption that CPL is a pipedream based on those comments

Edited June 14, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Rheo]

8 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Maybe we're just paying too much attention to this, but it annoys me a little when I see podcasts/radio shows do a discussion on CPL without actually looking at what is out there, often going as far as to call it "all rumours and speculation" despite the presence of official statements. Haven't listened to this particular podcast, but have noticed it frequently on some of the Canadian soccer podcasts out there

I mean, jeez, do your basic research before putting something like that out there. The overall tone is definitely migrating towards being positive about the project, but I wonder how many casual listeners have the baseline assumption that CPL is a pipedream based on those comments

To be fair I didn't realize they had recorded it before the AGM (I edited that in after I started the next one)  They're a lot more positive on this one and there's some good stuff.  20 minutes I'll be done and posting what I think are the highlights.

[Rheo]

It feels like the first pod was a cry for attention (not in a bad way)  There hadn't been a lot of contact and they feel that the NS Soccer has an important part to play.  It worked SEA reached out to them the day the pod came out and here we are with them having had more discussions and a public podcast to discuss things.

[Rheo]

You Beauty ep 19 with Derek Martin of SEA stuff

-On the long term viability SEA believes in the strength of structure of the league and those involved in ownership.  These are sports business people, not rich people looking for a toy.  Also the World Cup potentially coming is a major factor that will increase exposure and commercial value of soccer in Canada

-Only 14 home games a year (schedule plan I assume)

-in regards to academies in the short term they aren't looking to create anything new, they want to work with the existing system and help it.  They need to get the business model to work first before they consider it.

-Temp stadium can allow for tweaking based on customer feedback.  Hope that showing the viability with the temp stadium will encourage different levels of governments to support a more permanent facility.

-Some local pushback that a smaller stadium succeeding would hurt efforts for a viable CFL stadium.  Martin points out the CFL numbers are hard to pull off in the market (25k attendance) and CPL business plan is more reasonable and was attractive to them. 

-Lots of general discussion of local marketing, ticketing, business, etc.  Looking at range of prices for season tickets of $200-$500 for 14 games.

-Talked up the importance of the supporters, especially the early support so far from the Wanderers.

-Talked up the council meeting where the ok for the stadium will be voted on.  Looking at June 20 but could be pushed back given the nature of local politics.  Guess there is some local resistance to it which I wasn’t aware of.

-Teased a game this year in the fall to test the stadium out.

-Won’t commit to the Wanderers name, wants to consult with the fans but they do like it

-Once they have the support of the council it'll be real and they have the support of the CPL owners.

[Complete Homer]

37 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It feels like the first pod was a cry for attention (not in a bad way)  There hadn't been a lot of contact and they feel that the NS Soccer has an important part to play.  It worked SEA reached out to them the day the pod came out and here we are with them having had more discussions and a public podcast to discuss things.

Yeah wasn't calling out this particular podcast (and really, the more popular ones have generally been pretty good with this stuff too), just annoyed to see how willing people can be to dismiss a great new project in an area they are clearly interested in without trying to gather much information

Though I think it is the same issue as you see elsewhere, people default to skepticism as a defense mechanism

Regardless, it is also good to see the tide change and people change their opinions with more information available

Edited June 14, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Complete Homer]

6 minutes ago, Rheo said:

-in regards to academies in the short term they aren't looking to create anything new, they want to work with the existing system and help it.  They need to get the business model to work first before they consider it.

While a little disappointing, after the word from Ottawa Fury how much the academy was costing them, I am not very surprised. Hopefully teams can form affiliations with an established private academy

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I'm just glad we pulled through and found another topic to yell at each other over

In the whole, I agree with @harrycoyster on the playoff question, but I think this should quickly approach the "agree to disagree" phase 

I WASN'T YELLING

but actually though I thought it was of the more civil discussions we've had.  

[Rheo]

8 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

While a little disappointing, after the word from Ottawa Fury how much the academy was costing them, I am not very surprised. Hopefully teams can form affiliations with an established private academy

In this case it was presented as, if we don't have a business plan/team, why waste time/money now setting up an academy.  It was also working with the provincial group with the CPL team being the local top of the player pyramid.  

Seems like it's the general CPL cautiousness.  Get one thing done and then move on the the next.  Don't have too many irons in the fire. I could be misreading this but definitely recommend listening to it.

[Complete Homer]

 

[harrycoyster]

13 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

While a little disappointing, after the word from Ottawa Fury how much the academy was costing them, I am not very surprised. Hopefully teams can form affiliations with an established private academy

I'm actually perfectly okay with this if they are truly going to try to unite the existing system underneath the CPL. The NYCFC method of building an academy, even if the top of the pyramid is a few years off, is the perfect blueprint to follow. They've gone from nothing in 2013 to a network of tens of local teams that all feed up into their program. It's a lot easier to find the "hidden gems" when they are naturally funneling themselves into top local teams. Since we don't really have soccer hotbeds like the US does in Dallas and SoCal where the USSDAs don't even need scouts, having all the private academies working to the same end as the CPL teams would do a great deal for talent identification and build a strong player base for the eventual academies.

Nobody should be disappointed the CPL would have academies in year 1. It took MLS 15 years to build academies worth a damn. The CPL nurturing the existing structure isn't a bad thing until the league is stable and making enough money to do academies the right way.

[Macksam]

25 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Since we don't really have soccer hotbeds like the US does in Dallas and SoCal

Have you heard of this place in Ontario called Brampton? 

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, Macksam said:

Have you heard of this place in Ontario called Brampton? 

Brampton's clearly the biggest hotbed of soccer in Canada, but you can't realistically compare Brampton's soccer output since 2000 to Dallas or SoCal. 

The Dallas metro area is probably the worse of the two and has produced 8 USMNT-capped players whom are still active (Omar Gonzalez, Lee Nguyen, Gringo Torres, Clint Dempsey, Kenny Cooper, Drew Moor, Emerson Hyndman, Greg Garza) and a list of other MLS professionals too long to name. Dallas also produced 4 of the 10 biggest current USMNT prospects (Jesse Gonzalez, Weston McKennie, Paxton Pomykal, Jesus Ferreira).

Brampton is really, really important for Canada, but it doesn't come close to producing like Dallas.

[lazlo_80]

There are academies too that could benefit from a professional affiliation too. 

For example it would be extremely hard to build from scratch an academy as strong as Sigma. So why not just create some sort of partnership with them instead?

[Initial B]

Hi Guys, finally got on the forum here.

Based on the poll, I don't see why you cant have both playoffs and pro-rel, but I don't see a pro-rel split happening at least for the first 15 years of the league's existence.

If they are looking at a 14-game home schedule, then that would mean a 28 game schedule, depending on if they consider Canadian Championship games as part of the schedule. I think a 2-conference league with 2 games a year against opposing conference teams and the remaining games against in-conference teams would allow flexibility in the number of teams fielded in each conference. It would also allow the CPL to expand to 15 teams without changing the number of games in the schedule. Or they could simply go with an 8-team single table at the start with 4 games a year against every other team. 

Once the CPL gets to 16 teams, the league could take the top 8 teams from that year and form an 8-team top-flight that only plays against each other and a second, more regionalized CPL2, divided East and West to keep costs down and encourage more teams from smaller cities to test the professional waters. The Top CPL2 West and East team would play in a playoff to determine who take the place of the last place CPL team for the following season.

As for academies, I know they are an expense, but the CSA should require each CPL team to have a liaison with the local clubs and academies around their city to scout talent as they find it.

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Brampton's clearly the biggest hotbed of soccer in Canada, but you can't realistically compare Brampton's soccer output since 2000 to Dallas or SoCal. 

The Dallas metro area is probably the worse of the two and has produced 8 USMNT-capped players whom are still active (Omar Gonzalez, Lee Nguyen, Gringo Torres, Clint Dempsey, Kenny Cooper, Drew Moor, Emerson Hyndman, Greg Garza) and a list of other MLS professionals too long to name. Dallas also produced 4 of the 10 biggest current USMNT prospects (Jesse Gonzalez, Weston McKennie, Paxton Pomykal, Jesus Ferreira).

Brampton is really, really important for Canada, but it doesn't come close to producing like Dallas.

Historically? No. Recently? Yes. Dallas and So Cal are good (mostly due to population size and weather) for the US but neither area has that raw, street level environment akin to parts of Europe/South America that Brampton has.

[deschamp86]

10 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

The Dallas metro area is probably the worse of the two and has produced 8 USMNT-capped players whom are still active (Omar Gonzalez, Lee Nguyen, Gringo Torres, Clint Dempsey, Kenny Cooper, Drew Moor, Emerson Hyndman, Greg Garza)

If you want to compare like for like, there are 8 CMNT-capped players who are still active from Brampton (Jonathan Osorio, Junior Hoilett, Cyle Larin, Nana Attakora, Doneil Henry, Jay Chapman, Atiba Hutchinson, Iain Hume)

Also, Kenny Cooper hasn't played in two years. So I guess Brampton wins?

[harrycoyster]

25 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Historically? No. Recently? Yes. Dallas and So Cal are good (mostly due to population size and weather) for the US but neither area has that raw, street level environment akin to parts of Europe/South America that Brampton has.

Dallas and SoCal are so good due to the Latino population and their highly competitive youth systems. The output that is about to come out of Dallas is unreal. FC Dallas has like 5 or 6 u16 teams now and the Dallas Texans are a competitive USSDA team as well. Population and weather are a factor, but by those metrics New Orleans would be producing players; they don't. New Orleans doesn't even have a USSDA recognized academy team, LA has fourteen. 

There just aren't any other cities above the Rio Grande that have the perfect storm of natural talent, competitiveness, and pipeline that Dallas and SoCal have. North Jersey has the latter two, Philly and Toronto have the pipeline, Miami and Brampton have the talent, all three is exceedingly rare.