CPL General

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

For all we know maybe they don't and instead they simply have the good luck of an owner being willing to spend good money on his hobby.

Probably this. Happens in Scotland with certain clubs such as Ross County where Akio and Loturi wound up. Another slide I found interesting in the PDF is #63 with the table describing how much money is spent per match attendee. 14.8 euros or $20 for the Norwegian top tier so probably lower for Sogndal in the second tier. CanPL (especially the Cavalry) arguably tries to go for a high number in this context relative to the quality of the soccer.

[Kingston]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't think any of the supposed logic is sound, at all. 

One thing I hate: the guys runs their butts off, put in a leg, spill their guts out on the pitch. One makes 3 million, the others between 80 and 160 thousand, and they are teammates. One guy makes 25 time more than half his teammates. I find the notion repulsive. 

Apart from the fact that there is no evidence it improves the team. 

I don't understand why folks are citing the Beckham effect on gate and interest, when 96% of all other DP cases had a negligible effect. That is not attributable to Beckham then, the logic is totally wrong. People went to see a specific player (honest guy, a serious footballer, a good teammate I believe from having seen and watched him in La Liga, but vastly overrated). 

You know the single factor that most consistently can boost gate in MLS: cheap beer deals. Half price on pints is more effective than DPs for attendance.

I can agree with your qualms about wage disparity.

I can also agree that most DPs don't, by themselves, move the attendance needle.  Collectively, they probably do somewhat in that they raise the level of the league overall.

I disagree with your statement that there is no evidence that DPs improve the team.  

[shermanator]

Unleash the doom!

https://edmontonsun.com/sports/soccer/fc-edmonton/season-winding-down-on-fc-edmonton-with-future-in-doubt

Quote

 

A good crowd came out to watch the match, but a large section were Cavalry supporters who made the trip to Edmonton.

“If anybody is watching, come buy this club,” Koch said in his post-game interview. “There are a lot of good people who are working hard and you can see the community is waiting to jump on this. We have people that are very, very loyal to what people are doing here. Hopefully, things will go in a positive way and hopefully it’s sometime soon.”

 

Here is a snip of the good crowd from Saturday...

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by shermanator

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

I can agree with your qualms about wage disparity.

I can also agree that most DPs don't, by themselves, move the attendance needle.  Collectively, they probably do somewhat in that they raise the level of the league overall.

I disagree with your statement that there is no evidence that DPs improve the team.  

Quality players improve teams, not DPs. I should have been clearer.

In the world all teams seek quality signings and pay them a premium. MLS calls this DP. But the label doth not maketh the man, to use language appropriate for MLS roster rules.

[Aird25]

13 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Add to the fact that Sogndal rarely draws over 1,500 a match.  I do follow Norwegian football a little and wonder the same thing.  The smaller teams are lucky to draw 500 a game and the travel can be brutal as the country is very long north to south.  I really don’t know how they survive, let alone pay a transfer fee.  

It’s the same with the teams that bought Abzi, Loturi and Akio. These are not clubs that draw big crowds but they’re presumably able to pay higher salaries and transfer fees 

[Kingston]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Quality players improve teams, not DPs. I should have been clearer.

In the world all teams seek quality signings and pay them a premium. MLS calls this DP. But the label doth not maketh the man, to use language appropriate for MLS roster rules.

Thanks for your clarification.  That makes more sense.

You are correct that the label doesn't matter.  Unlike most leagues, however, MLS has a salary cap.  So, if they want to let teams bring in higher cost players, they need some mechanism to let it happen.  Teams can't just offer larger contracts under the salary cap rules the way teams in non-capped leagues could.  (There's an ongoing debate in MLS circles about whether a few high-end DPs are the way to go or a general increase in salary cap would be better, but that's another question.)

The CPL, as another salary cap league, will eventually face the same questions about how best to start moving the player needle upward.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Thanks for your clarification.  That makes more sense.

You are correct that the label doesn't matter.  Unlike most leagues, however, MLS has a salary cap.  So, if they want to let teams bring in higher cost players, they need some mechanism to let it happen.  Teams can't just offer larger contracts under the salary cap rules the way teams in non-capped leagues could.  (There's an ongoing debate in MLS circles about whether a few high-end DPs are the way to go or a general increase in salary cap would be better, but that's another question.)

The CPL, as another salary cap league, will eventually face the same questions about how best to start moving the player needle upward.

I love the "salary cap that isn't a cap at all" logic of DPs.

As is CPL teams have shown to be able to compete in CONCACAF and will likely have Voyageurs Cup winner within 5 years. That sounds like competing.

So why do they need DPs again? Is it to bring in stars to draw gate? MLS can do that because 2-3 million might get you a star. In CPL even drawing double the current average they'll not be able to pay more than a few hundred thousand. If that's the stupid principle, pay a famous guy to attract fans.

Let's make a list of famous big draw players for 350 thousand a year, I'll start: 

-

-

-

Now you.

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

It’s the same with the teams that bought Abzi, Loturi and Akio. These are not clubs that draw big crowds but they’re presumably able to pay higher salaries and transfer fees 

Well, I can speak for Akio and Loturi in that their owner (Ross County) is a very successful businessman.  They have to pay higher salaries than every club in the central belt to entice players to relocate up north.

[Kingston]

52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I love the "salary cap that isn't a cap at all" logic of DPs.

As is CPL teams have shown to be able to compete in CONCACAF and will likely have Voyageurs Cup winner within 5 years. That sounds like competing.

So why do they need DPs again? Is it to bring in stars to draw gate? MLS can do that because 2-3 million might get you a star. In CPL even drawing double the current average they'll not be able to pay more than a few hundred thousand. If that's the stupid principle, pay a famous guy to attract fans.

Let's make a list of famous big draw players for 350 thousand a year, I'll start: 

-

-

-

Now you.

I'm not advocating DPs for the CPL.  I'm not even necessarily advocating them for MLS.

I'm just saying that the use of DPs is how MLS has chosen to allow teams to bring in higher value players while remaining a salary cap league.  There are several other options, but, whether is a great or terrible, this is what they have selected.

I'm further suggesting that, since it is also a salary cap league, the CPL will eventually have to figure out the best "bang for the buck" way to start increasing spending on players.  Is that simply increasing the cap and the individual player min/max amounts?  Is it allowing overspending on one or more specific players (e.g. DPs)?  Is it something else?  Who knows.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'm not advocating DPs for the CPL.  I'm not even necessarily advocating them for MLS.

I'm just saying that the use of DPs is how MLS has chosen to allow teams to bring in higher value players while remaining a salary cap league.  There are several other options, but, whether is a great or terrible, this is what they have selected.

I'm further suggesting that, since it is also a salary cap league, the CPL will eventually have to figure out the best "bang for the buck" way to start increasing spending on players.  Is that simply increasing the cap and the individual player min/max amounts?  Is it allowing overspending on one or more specific players (e.g. DPs)?  Is it something else?  Who knows.

Copying the MLS model ensures that the gap between MLS and CPL will never be narrowed as one league spends significantly more than the other while using the same roster/financial rules.

The best course of action is to simply increase the cap which would help CPL club to add players more "evenly" and have more balanced rosters. Overtime, the best CPL clubs could be as strong as the top Honduras or Costa Rica clubs "consistently". They spend way less but are still dangerous to MLS clubs.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ansem

[Kingston]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The best course of action is to simply increase the cap which would help CPL club to add players more "evenly" and have more balanced rosters. 

I agree that this would make the most sense for the CPL for now.  As Unnamed Trialist pointed out, they won't be signing players with enough star power to sell tickets on their own anyway.

Even for MLS, which has far more money, there's a question whether the overall level of play would be higher with a more even salary structure under a larger cap.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I agree that this would make the most sense for the CPL for now.  As Unnamed Trialist pointed out, they won't be signing players with enough star power to sell tickets on their own anyway.

Best route right now is to keep increasing the quality on the pitch, definitely handy when clubs are very competitive in Canadian championship games and soon CCL

 

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Even for MLS, which has far more money, there's a question whether the overall level of play would be higher with a more even salary structure under a larger cap.

They'd be much stronger, not only could they still get some of their stars by overpaying them, they'd be able to get stronger Americans to come home. They'd narrow the gap with Liga MX for sure

[Big_M]

Desperation time in Edmonton...noonan and koch admitting a new owner has not been found and koch almost begging for someone to buy the team

Season winding down on FC Edmonton with future in doubt

[Ftduck]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Overtime, the best CPL clubs could be as strong as the top Honduras or Costa Rica clubs "consistently". They spend way less but are still dangerous to MLS clubs.

This is exactly what I want to see with the CPL. I couldn't give two shits if the CPL is someday as good as MLS. Just as long as we get our own soccer culture going and we harvest as much Canadian talent as possible. I love watching the Concacaf "minnows " do some damage and would love for our league to be a part of that. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ftduck said:

This is exactly what I want to see with the CPL. I couldn't give two shits if the CPL is someday as good as MLS. Just as long as we get our own soccer culture going and we harvest as much Canadian talent as possible. I love watching the Concacaf "minnows " do some damage and would love for our league to be a part of that. 

While I don't really care how we conpare to MLS, winning CCL one day would be nice. As I argued before, CONCACAF is a "2 league" confederation right now - we should aim to make it a "3 league" confederation in the near future.

Meaning that we could be the "Bundesliga" to the other two's EPL and La Liga. This requires some flexibility & roster creativity to get there.

-Luxury tax on clubs spending above minimum to help fund poorer clubs or in the future, relegated clubs?

-Prize money for winning CPL can be used to spend above cap?

-More flexibility to allow clubs to give bonus and/other incentives on top of salaries to attract better players

Just some ideas but we need to get to the point where our top clubs are expected to a nightmare to play against even if we aren't favorites on paper, more so than Olimpia or Saprissa/Alajuelense.

Without going overboard, ambitious clubs who can afford it should be allowed that fiscal flexibility. There's a "a balance to achieve" between full parity vs free for all

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

15 hours ago, Kingston said:

I'm not advocating DPs for the CPL.  I'm not even necessarily advocating them for MLS.

I'm just saying that the use of DPs is how MLS has chosen to allow teams to bring in higher value players while remaining a salary cap league.  There are several other options, but, whether is a great or terrible, this is what they have selected.

I'm further suggesting that, since it is also a salary cap league, the CPL will eventually have to figure out the best "bang for the buck" way to start increasing spending on players.  Is that simply increasing the cap and the individual player min/max amounts?  Is it allowing overspending on one or more specific players (e.g. DPs)?  Is it something else?  Who knows.

Crowds probably need to increase substantially in most cities before they can think about raising the cap significantly beyond the inflation rate. Think they need to look at whether they get bang for their buck out of the relatively high number of imports they bring in (has anyone ever gone to an FCE game because Tobias Warschewski is in the lineup?) and whether that money might be better targeted at developing young Canadian talent instead.

They seem to have a CFL mentality on roster rules in an environment where the CFL model isn't really applicable given there are so many more fully professional clubs globally than there are with gridiron. From what I can see the money they are paying isn't bringing in talent that is appreciably better than what they can find reasonably close by with the possible exceptions of Halifax and Winnipeg.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Crowds probably need to increase substantially in most cities before they can think about raising the cap significantly beyond the inflation rate. Think they need to look at whether they get bang for their buck out of the relatively high number of imports they bring in (has anyone ever gone to an FCE game because Tobias Warschewski is in the lineup?) and whether that money might be better targeted at developing young Canadian talent instead.

They seem to have a CFL mentality on roster rules in an environment where the CFL model isn't really applicable given there are so many more fully professional clubs globally than there are with gridiron. From what I can see the money they are paying isn't bringing in talent that is appreciably better than what they can find reasonably close by with the possible exceptions of Halifax and Winnipeg.

Basically agree. 

First, there probably is not a single CPL player I would pay money to see, just to see him. Not the case with MLS, where yes, I did want to see Pirlo and Villa for NYCFC (both were mediocre that day, no surprise). 

Then, second, it is hard to imagine anyone being signed for CPL, within even the highest part of the salary range, who would really draw fans. Remember when there was that Diego Forlan rumour for Valour the first year (was it?), that was a good one. Maybe if you had a legend willing to play for a 200,000, but even then: how can you even justify spending 20% of the cap on a single player in decline?

The model has to be to have good, balanced teams, within the limits of the budgets, not breaking banks. Rosters that are balanced in terms of talent and salaries, some younger guy makes 20k, another top player makes 80k (4x more, not like in MLS where you regularly get 50x more), maximum sort of spread.

Market teams because they are local or regional in identity, combine local with national with international players, provide entertainment, win, get into Concacaf competitions and play Voyageurs Cup vs MLS sides, play in a nice venue, with decent food and drink quality and prices, preferably in a good neighbourhood with amenities, have merchandise for all, work with local youth clubs, do clinics, and slowly but surely bond with their fans.

The whole idea is that a player becomes a local favourite, a fan favourite, after a few seasons, that is as legit a basis for building attendance as the DP route, which for me is flawed in MLS but I can understand--and for me in CPL would be both flawed and incomprehensible. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kingston]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

While I don't really care how we conpare to MLS, winning CCL one day would be nice. As I argued before, CONCACAF is a "2 league" confederation right now - we should aim to make it a "3 league" confederation in the near future.

Being the "third league" is a good longer term goal.  It's actually great that we have CONCACAF level tournaments to provide regular benchmarks.  Right now we appear to be in the mix with the better non-LMX/MLS leagues.  We'll see how long it takes to clearly pass them into third.  That's probably doable in a few years. 

[Watchmen]

I wouldn't expect the first few salary cap raises to substantially increase the quality of the league. Instead, you're going to have the Canadian players asking/getting a better wage. That's not a bad thing either, it just doesn't raise the quality of the league.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I wouldn't expect the first few salary cap raises to substantially increase the quality of the league. Instead, you're going to have the Canadian players asking/getting a better wage. That's not a bad thing either, it just doesn't raise the quality of the league.

Higher wages might lead to better talent/prospects being signed to deals.

In a nutshell

• If current CPL player earns 35k-40K
• The league is willing to pay 45k-50k

Will the league pay that player an extra 10k or recruit a better player worth 45k to 50k?

If clubs are going to spend more, they will absolutely want the quality to increase as well or they are truly in the wrong business

 

[Aird25]

Pacific were certainly more enjoyable to watch with Wero Diaz in the lineup than they have been since he left. I'd say the same for Morelli and Halifax, Warchewski, AAJ, Bassett, Jean-Baptiste etc. Hell even though I really dislike Escalante, his style of play certainly adds a different element to the league than your typical Canadian player, and I think it's important young Canadians are exposed to different styles

[Big_M]

 

[Big_M]

 

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Higher wages might lead to better talent/prospects being signed to deals.

In a nutshell

• If current CPL player earns 35k-40K
• The league is willing to pay 45k-50k

Will the league pay that player an extra 10k or recruit a better player worth 45k to 50k?

 

Probably a bit of both.

Like most soccer leagues around the world, the CPL effectively operates in a wage and talent bracket.  They need players of at least a minimum level of talent but tend to lose players who are above a certain level of talent for financial reasons.  So, to totally make up a scale, if a rec league player is 1 and an EPL star is 100, let's say that CPL players are between 50 and 70.

If wages increase slightly (by 10k in your example) they will tend to get more players in the 65-70 range and fewer in the 50-55 range.  Maybe they even get a few just above 70.

But, the league has Canadian content rules and there are only so many Canadian players in the necessary range.  So we may also see some Canadian wage inflation.  A Canadian 65 might be worth as much as a foreign 70 to a CPL team.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

...But, the league has Canadian content rules and there are only so many Canadian players in the necessary range.  So we may also see some Canadian wage inflation...

Understand the rationale but is that what we have actually seen though? There have been a few imports that stand out in a big way like Morelli, Escalante, Mason and Diaz (I have no problem with signing up to maybe three imports per roster) but there have been plenty more that really don't look significantly better than the Canadian guys no one had heard of until they appeared in CanPL.

Think there are more young Canadian players out there that would do a reasonable job if given a chance to show what they can do for a few seasons with full-time training. It's not like the CFL scenario where there are lots of very talented Americans who don't get an NFL contract that can boost the playing standards in a big way relative to what's available domestically. CanPL is very much raking around the bargain bins in terms of soccer's global transfer market.