CPL General

[yothat2]

12 hours ago, Kent said:

The 100th ranked municipality by population in Canada is Mirabel Quebec. Its population is more than 8 times the population of St. Pierre and Miquelon.

Have to give the French FFF a call and consider it .

[Kent]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

If they could Avg 2-3000 a game, that would basically what the CPL is getting now. From what I read Football is very popular on the island and the FFF has put money into the development. They even sent a local team team to France to play games. They are  planning on building a indoor field like Iceland. In my view it’s kinda stupid not to approach them specially if they had French backing. An Infusion of French players and European money. 

OK, you have repeated it and didn't address deschamp86's comment. I assume you don't think it would be OK for the team to average less than 10 people attending a game right? So you are talking about averaging between 2000 and 3000 people per game? So you literally think it is possible for them to average 33% to 50% of the entire population to come out to games? I'm pretty certain that would be unprecedented in the world of sports. No doubt North Bay loves hockey, in 2019 they were getting just over 2000 fans per game to their OHL games, and that's a town that has 51k people to draw from, compared to 6k people that St. P+M has to draw from. If there was a one off event, maybe, MAYBE, they could draw 2000 to 3000 fans. But 15 or so times a year? Sorry, but that's an absurd expectation. And no, I don't think their existence in our league means money will flow from French networks scrambling to get the TV rights for a league with St. P+M in it.

 

[yothat2]

On 4/3/2021 at 2:02 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Pro soccer in the shape of MLS has already overtaken the CFL in the GTA in every metric other than possibly TV viewership. The CFL's geriatric "old stock" demographic still watches cable so difficult to challenge them there when soccer skews toward younger demographics that don't. Pro soccer may also be ahead that way in Montreal and Vancouver as well but it's not quite as clear cut in those cases. That leaves only six markets where gridiron is still very much king in summer-fall sports terms.

The talk of a possible CFL-XFL linkup is intriguing. If there are people within the CFL (MLSE apparently are in this camp) who see the only way ahead for the CFL as linking up with a spring format American gridiron league and possibly even switching over to four downs they must be in dire straits overall given how those leagues have always wound up in the past. Doubt having Dwayne Johnson involved really makes much difference to the eventual outcome but time will tell obviously.

The CFL won't die but the manner in which it reconfigures so that revenues match expenses in a post-cable TV sports environment might make it easier for soccer to start to challenge its dominance in the non-MLS markets than it has been in the past.

They should be focusing on partnering with drake before the rock. 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

OK, you have repeated it and didn't address deschamp86's comment. I assume you don't think it would be OK for the team to average less than 10 people attending a game right? So you are talking about averaging between 2000 and 3000 people per game? So you literally think it is possible for them to average 33% to 50% of the entire population to come out to games? I'm pretty certain that would be unprecedented in the world of sports. No doubt North Bay loves hockey, in 2019 they were getting just over 2000 fans per game to their OHL games, and that's a town that has 51k people to draw from, compared to 6k people that St. P+M has to draw from. If there was a one off event, maybe, MAYBE, they could draw 2000 to 3000 fans. But 15 or so times a year? Sorry, but that's an absurd expectation. And no, I don't think their existence in our league means money will flow from French networks scrambling to get the TV rights for a league with St. P+M in it.

 

As well, we literally just witnessed Ligue 1 having massive financial difficulties after the Media One deal imploded.  I doubt that the the FFF is all that concerned with St. P & M right now. 

And all of this ignores that we have no idea how easy it might be to get work permits for what would essentially be work between Canada and an EU country.  We've seen how difficult it can be the Canadian MLS based teams to get the paperwork sorted, and that's between two countries with a number of joint leagues and that regularly have to do this.  I'd imagine it would be even more of a pain in the ass here.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Worth a watch to hear the inside scoop on where things are heading with the CFL from a TSN journalist (he describes how he is the last of the legacy sports media dinosaurs in age cohort terms and manages to work in the obligatory shot at soccer along the way) who covers the league:

 

The irony level of the league CanPL was supposed to be emulating in nationalism terms merging with an American league and ditching Canadian rules on three downs etc would be off the scale, but he makes a convincing case that three of nine CFL franchises are not viable moving forward under the current business plan.

[MtlMario]

I'm sure Dave Naylor won't be covering soccer any day soon.😁

[The Real Marc]

I’ve always viewed the league building daydreaming that goes go on here with an eye roll and a smirk. But St. Pierre and Miquelon on the CanPL really takes the cake ... that’s old Northboys level stuff.

[MtlMario]

If we put a team there the house robbers will have it made because all the homes will be empty cause everyone will be at the game.😀😎

[Free kick]

4 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I'm sure Dave Naylor won't be covering soccer any day soon.😁

True but that whole segment was incredibly insightfull and informing.   

Edited April 5, 2021 by Free kick

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

What makes it so refreshing is how he talks about the Canada people in southern Ontario actually experience rather than peddling a Tim Hortons commercial myth of what things are supposed to be like. Yes, rightly or wrongly (I'm indifferent to both personally) most people actually do prefer the 4 down NFL version of the sport to the CFL 3 down one and it has been that way for a very long time now.

Beyond that I can't imagine Bob Young is fully on board with the CFL-XFL merger so the recent spat between TFC and the Forge over CCL entry may be part of a much deeper and wider dispute between Bob Young and MLSE. Given the way TSN are tied to MLSE in ownership terms through Bell Canada, Dave Naylor will know which side his bread is buttered on and will be providing MLSE's vision of the way ahead.

Doing things like ending the CFL's Canadian player quota in a merged league would help smooth the path to an eventual NFL team in the GTA and that will be their real end game. If Bob Young was aiming to topple TFC's grip on the soccer market with the Forge and Y9 this is MLSE going thermonuclear in terms of returning the serve in a gridiron context.

[Macksam]

How will ending the Canadian player quota in a merged league help "smooth the path" to an eventual NFL team in the GTA? I doubt the CFL's player quota has any effect one way or another on whether the GTA gets a NFL franchise. 

[Cheeta]

I'll play.  General thoughts.

On the one hand....we've been hearing the CFL business model hasen't worked in Ontario for what now?  40 years?  Say this or say that, it's still here and the TV numbers in Ontario are still strong.  Guess the dinosaurs must be hanging in there.

On the other hand....If the NFL ever grows CLF sized balls and expands into Toronto, and they won't because whoever would do that is going to have to pay every last cent to build a $500,000,000 dollar stadium to do so, that would finally kill the CFL in that city.  And while a lot of Toronto won't care about that, nor would any of the other CFL markets.  Not ideal of course, but they'll move on because they'll have to. 

But XFL?  LOL.  OK.  Enjoy! 

From the outside I have a hard time not visualising the GTA as anything but an underdeveloped professional soccer opportunity.  MLS, CPL or something in-between.  But that's from the outside.  I don't now what the peoples in various parts of that metro area will acccept as professional and at what price.   

But of course I'm also gob-smacked that in 2021 there isn't at least one more NHL team in Toronto so shows what I know about anything. 

 

 

 

  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Cheeta said:

I'll play.  General thoughts.

On the one hand....we've been hearing the CFL business model hasen't worked in Ontario for what now?  40 years?  ... 

More like 30 years on the GTA and there's a big difference to how things were on spectator interest with the Argos when Jon Candy, Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky were the owners to now.

[The Real Marc]

I can't speak for any other part of the country, and it's totally anecdotal, but in southern Ontario I've never encountered anyone ever playing three-down football  outside of the universities - none in organized, high school, rec, or otherwise. Even in the shadow of the Ti-Cats no one ever wanted to play CFL rules. Do minor football leagues play 3 down football?

Edited April 6, 2021 by The Real Marc

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, Cheeta said:

I'll play.  General thoughts.

On the one hand....we've been hearing the CFL business model hasen't worked in Ontario for what now?  40 years?  Say this or say that, it's still here and the TV numbers in Ontario are still strong.  Guess the dinosaurs must be hanging in there.

On the other hand....If the NFL ever grows CLF sized balls and expands into Toronto, and they won't because whoever would do that is going to have to pay every last cent to build a $500,000,000 dollar stadium to do so, that would finally kill the CFL in that city.  And while a lot of Toronto won't care about that, nor would any of the other CFL markets.  Not ideal of course, but they'll move on because they'll have to. 

But XFL?  LOL.  OK.  Enjoy! 

From the outside I have a hard time not visualising the GTA as anything but an underdeveloped professional soccer opportunity.  MLS, CPL or something in-between.  But that's from the outside.  I don't now what the peoples in various parts of that metro area will acccept as professional and at what price.   

But of course I'm also gob-smacked that in 2021 there isn't at least one more NHL team in Toronto so shows what I know about anything. 

 

 

 

  

Are they really? I have only seen national numbers listed and apparently studies have shown that viewership isn't unique based on the market, as in the same people watching a Stamps/Riders game will be watching the Argos/Ticats game. 

[Cheeta]

12 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Are they really? I have only seen national numbers listed and apparently studies have shown that viewership isn't unique based on the market, as in the same people watching a Stamps/Riders game will be watching the Argos/Ticats game. 

Don't know.  Have it in my head a few years ago that CFL TV numbers were driven by the Ontario based viewership, surprisingly.  Having 1/3 of all of Canada living in that province will do that even if what they're watching is proportionately less popular than in other regions.

Also have no idea how they calculate TV numbers anymore.  Way more complicated than it used to be.

[Cheeta]

24 minutes ago, The Real Marc said:

I can't speak for any other part of the country, and it's totally anecdotal, but in southern Ontario I've never encountered anyone ever playing three-down football  outside of the universities - none in organized, high school, rec, or otherwise. Even in the shadow of the Ti-Cats no one ever wanted to play CFL rules. Do minor football leagues play 3 down football?

Exact opposite out here.  It's three down craddle to grave.  Unless things have changed in the last decade (kids are all grown up) it was three down at all minor levels.  

NFL very popular out here as well.   Don't know anyone who's strictly a CFL fan.

[MtlMario]

1 hour ago, Cheeta said:

Exact opposite out here.  It's three down craddle to grave.  Unless things have changed in the last decade (kids are all grown up) it was three down at all minor levels.  

NFL very popular out here as well.   Don't know anyone who's strictly a CFL fan.

Well now you know one.😎

[Kent]

18 hours ago, Macksam said:

How will ending the Canadian player quota in a merged league help "smooth the path" to an eventual NFL team in the GTA? I doubt the CFL's player quota has any effect one way or another on whether the GTA gets a NFL franchise. 

It's an angle I hadn't thought of until Ozzie brought it up, but I can see the logic. How do you solve any big problem? First you break it down. If the CFL and XFL merge, and as Naylor suggests this newly merged league gets rid of Canadian quotas and 3 down football, and is no longer a 9 team league, that changes a LOT. Suddenly the league is a lot less strictly Canadian, a lot less reliant on Toronto (for appearances sake) and losing 1 team isn't as big a deal. The league would (assuming it is successful and stable) have 16 teams still if Toronto left. So the NFL coming to Toronto would no longer be seen as America killing the CFL or anything like that. We would have already let them seep into our football landscape.

I can see how merging with the XFL could be the halfway point to getting an NFL team. OK, maybe a third of a way there, getting rid of the Argos and getting acceptance of an NFL team being a third, and getting a stadium being a very significant chunk of it as well.

[MtlMario]

....and there goes the CFL being taken over by America just like the NHL has been.☹️

[Shway]

34 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

....and there goes the CFL being taken over by America just like the NHL has been.☹️

This is our, we the people’s fault.

I question this all the time.

WHY DO WE RELY ON THE US FOR OUR ENTERTAINMENT!

I hate it. And the fact that we don’t have our own professional league to call our own that doesn’t limit the number of Canadians teams we could have. The fact we can’t do it with hockey is where my heart hurts. 

I just wish we could rid ourselves of the US reliant sports structure specifically in hockey and basketball. 

We’ll never see our full potential, but as for throw ball - it’s dying in interest here, along with baseball.

[m-g-williams]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

It's an angle I hadn't thought of until Ozzie brought it up, but I can see the logic. How do you solve any big problem? First you break it down. If the CFL and XFL merge, and as Naylor suggests this newly merged league gets rid of Canadian quotas and 3 down football, and is no longer a 9 team league, that changes a LOT. Suddenly the league is a lot less strictly Canadian, a lot less reliant on Toronto (for appearances sake) and losing 1 team isn't as big a deal. The league would (assuming it is successful and stable) have 16 teams still if Toronto left. So the NFL coming to Toronto would no longer be seen as America killing the CFL or anything like that. We would have already let them seep into our football landscape.

I can see how merging with the XFL could be the halfway point to getting an NFL team. OK, maybe a third of a way there, getting rid of the Argos and getting acceptance of an NFL team being a third, and getting a stadium being a very significant chunk of it as well.

I won't profess to being an expert on gridiron but from what I understand, non-NFL professional football hasn't exactly had stellar results in the US. Seeing the XFL go bankrupt twice in the last 20 years (though the latest time was admittedly a result of the pandemic) and with the CFL American expansion debacle in the 90s, I can't say that I'm convinced the latest iteration of the XFL will fare much better. I get that the CFL may be in a bind financially and struggling with its fanbase, but hitching their wagon to the latest NFL challenger doesn't strike me as a good idea. 

I came across an interesting doc last night on Netflix on how cricket essentially re-invented itself through the advent of one-day internationals and T20 matches when they started to lose relevance in the 70s and 80s. I understand even less about cricket than I do about gridiron, but I have to say, it was impressive to see how English cricket officials took a very hard look in the mirror to see what could be changed to better adapt to changing demographics and audience preferences. I'd hope the CFL would take a similar approach and find ways to attract a new generation of Canadian fans rather than trust a not-entirely-convincing opportunity south of the border. 

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

It's an angle I hadn't thought of until Ozzie brought it up, but I can see the logic. How do you solve any big problem? First you break it down. If the CFL and XFL merge, and as Naylor suggests this newly merged league gets rid of Canadian quotas and 3 down football, and is no longer a 9 team league, that changes a LOT. Suddenly the league is a lot less strictly Canadian, a lot less reliant on Toronto (for appearances sake) and losing 1 team isn't as big a deal. The league would (assuming it is successful and stable) have 16 teams still if Toronto left. So the NFL coming to Toronto would no longer be seen as America killing the CFL or anything like that. We would have already let them seep into our football landscape.

I can see how merging with the XFL could be the halfway point to getting an NFL team. OK, maybe a third of a way there, getting rid of the Argos and getting acceptance of an NFL team being a third, and getting a stadium being a very significant chunk of it as well.

That logic is sound after you painted this vivid picture. However, I am sure the individual who did spout it didn't think of it like that though.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

I'm seeing reports in my feed this morning that MLSE is the driving force on XFL.  Reminder that Bill Manning is also president of the Argos, the same guy who moved the TFC youth teams out of Canada into USSDA.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 hours ago, Shway said:

This is our, we the people’s fault.

I question this all the time.

WHY DO WE RELY ON THE US FOR OUR ENTERTAINMENT!

I hate it...

The silent majority in Canada appear to be fine with it so that's unlikely to change just because a minority of nationalists don't like it. Think it is always worth bearing in mind that a huge problem soccer had historically was that our sport was being actively marginalized and suppressed for decades in the name of pushing the CFL as part of a nation building project that revolved around notions of cultural exceptionalism.

The Argos almost killed the stadium building project for the 2007 U-20 World Cup when they double-crossed the CSA and agreed a deal to move back to the Rogers Centre instead. BMO Field and what it did for interest in domestic pro soccer in the shape of TFC happened because people at MLSE went against Canada's traditional soccer-hating mainstream pro sports culture and saw soccer instead as the sport of a future more outward looking, multicultural and cosmopolitan Canada that they could make a lot of money out of.

Something to bear in mind when MLSE are cast as the bad guys on here. Not hugely bothered on how it happens as long as soccer wins out of it.