CanadaFan123 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ams1984 said: Obviously not. They’ve become adversarial. Worse still, they’ve done it while a brand new league (which may or may not be financially viable) is trying to survive a pandemic with no fans and no gate. Use some sense please. Exactly - and these players are still eligible for CERB benefits as far as I know. They're average Canadian citizens and should be treated as such. Anyone who cares about Canadian soccer can't honestly advocate for an adversarial union at this stage. Stouffvillain, Ansem, Ams1984 and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ams1984 said: Obviously not. They’ve become adversarial. Worse still, they’ve done it while a brand new league (which may or may not be financially viable) is trying to survive a pandemic with no fans and no gate. Use some sense please. Those salary ranges were in place before the pandemic though. And I know it's worth inquiring on things like how the housing works, per diem, etc. But I think it's also worth it to point out that those don't seem anywhere near the "livable salaries" the league repeatedly emphasized on start up. The tweet also seems to be emphasizing that they would have preferred a more progressive covid cuts (rather than the flat percentage i'm assuming they all took) to help protect the lower end players. jonovision, gator and The Real Marc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 hours ago, RS said: Calm down, Jim Jones. I'm just messing around. @Watchmen@SthMelbRed I'll stop. I consider you both my boys regardless if you want to ascend or not. Ams1984 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reign Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said: Exactly - and these players are still eligible for CERB benefits as far as I know. They're average Canadian citizens and should be treated as such. Anyone who cares about Canadian soccer can't honestly advocate for an adversarial union at this stage. The average Canadian citizen isn’t struggling to earn over 15k a year. These wages are not fair to the players. The argument that it’s this or they wouldn’t be playing is a bad one. Just because these players don’t have an abundance of other options mean they should be taken advantage of ? I also don’t like the “new league, low revenue” argument. If I open a mechanical shop today, that doesn’t mean I can pay my mechanics $12 an hour because it’s a new shop. I have to pay them a fair wage and expect to lose money for a few years. jonovision and yellowsweatygorilla 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 16 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said: Exactly - and these players are still eligible for CERB benefits as far as I know. They're average Canadian citizens and should be treated as such. Anyone who cares about Canadian soccer can't honestly advocate for an adversarial union at this stage. I may have a different definition of adversarial than you, and for all intents and purposes, there is no union. But I also don't think many would change their opinion if one removed the word "adversarial" from this sentence. Workers are not CERB eligible if they earn over $1000 a month. I'm not aware of the payment schedule for CPL squads, but they've all been at work since at least June, so players might have received 2 or 3 months worth of CERB cheques. No CPL player is laughing all the way to the bank in 2021. Owners may not be either, but for most, their CPL investment is a tiny fraction of their overall business holdings. yellowsweatygorilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 The league also appears to have a number of new major sponsors. Gatorade, All State, etc. Ams1984 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Let's just get back to normal here and maybe we can have this discussion Ruffian, Stouffvillain and Ams1984 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 ^ I think there are plenty of details we are not privy to that makes this a more nuanced discussion, but in general the idea that labour should only have a voice when conditions are good seems ridiculous to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) A tweet is not a voice. Its just an opportunity to get idealogs to start arguing without any nuance or willingness to consider what hasn't already been decided in their mind Edited August 18, 2020 by SpursFlu Ams1984 and Ruffian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaFan123 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 44 minutes ago, Reign said: The average Canadian citizen isn’t struggling to earn over 15k a year. These wages are not fair to the players. The argument that it’s this or they wouldn’t be playing is a bad one. Just because these players don’t have an abundance of other options mean they should be taken advantage of ? I also don’t like the “new league, low revenue” argument. If I open a mechanical shop today, that doesn’t mean I can pay my mechanics $12 an hour because it’s a new shop. I have to pay them a fair wage and expect to lose money for a few years. Are they precluded from getting other jobs? These players are playing one month of football this year and many have had the opportunity to play on scholarships before that. Do you really think what they're doing equates to $12 per hour? Let's get with reality and move away from entitlement. They're getting an opportunity that never existed prior in a start up league. If they want to push back against that they'll be back to earning nothing playing football before long. This platform is a springboard to better things so make the most of it OR use your degree to find something else. Red and White, Ams1984 and johnyb 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 33 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said: Are they precluded from getting other jobs? These players are playing one month of football this year and many have had the opportunity to play on scholarships before that. Do you really think what they're doing equates to $12 per hour? Let's get with reality and move away from entitlement. They're getting an opportunity that never existed prior in a start up league. If they want to push back against that they'll be back to earning nothing playing football before long. This platform is a springboard to better things so make the most of it OR use your degree to find something else. I think there is a lot of middle ground between aggressive union tactics and your entitlement allegation. I think players, playing pro sports, are thinking they deserve more than $15k per year. They may only play during the season but these guys train and practice year-round. There is no way you achieve this level of skill treating it like a part time summer gig. I have no idea when the league will achieve a level of revenue that will allow them to pay a true living wage (and then beyond into luxury wages) but I do know that it is a reasonable expectation for guys who are expected to play a sport at a very high level and maintain peak physical conditioning. Lastly, the adage “you get what you pay for” is largely accurate. If we are paying guys a part time wage, we can’t expect guys who warrant a higher wage to hang around for sentimental reasons and national pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reign Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 35 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said: Are they precluded from getting other jobs? These players are playing one month of football this year and many have had the opportunity to play on scholarships before that. Do you really think what they're doing equates to $12 per hour? Let's get with reality and move away from entitlement. They're getting an opportunity that never existed prior in a start up league. If they want to push back against that they'll be back to earning nothing playing football before long. This platform is a springboard to better things so make the most of it OR use your degree to find something else. If they are working other jobs they aren’t professional athletes. The league loves to talk about how they are a full on division 1 professional football league. That isn’t the case if they have to work night shift after practice. This isn’t about this season. The salary was going to be the same regardless of the pandemic. Which means these guys would have been training and playing games for what 8 months ? During the off-season they are still expected to stay in shape and continue to do things for the club off the pitch. rkomar, jonovision and yellowsweatygorilla 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Reign said: These wages are not fair to the players. Would they earn better elsewhere? If yes, why are they in CPL? I want guys to earn more too but that's up to them to raise their value so they can be sold to a club that will play them 6 figures. We are part of the FIFA market so if no one else were willing to pay them more or play them, that weakened their bargaining position. No leagues just "do the right thing", revenues have to follow as well A union will go a long way to increase wages and increase the bargaining power of players but my god, they are going at it the wrong way and it won't get them what they want any faster. All they are doing now is hurting the reputation of the league that's SO HARD to build from scratch hoping it speeds things up I've been unionized for 15 years and they are behaving like amateurs. That is NOT how you do things. I support the initiative, not the means. There's nothing evil in CPL letting them go through the entire process as guaranteed by the law. Edited August 18, 2020 by Ansem Ruffian and johnyb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Ansem said: Would they earn better elsewhere? If yes, why are they in CPL? I want guys to earn more too but that's up to them to raise their value so they can be sold to a club that will play them 6 figures. If this is the mentality and I'm a player, I'm only signing one year deals with my CPL team and leaving on a free transfer as soon as I get a better offer. Why bother letting the club sell me, when I could get more as a free agent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Let's not forget that part of the reason this union got formed so quickly is because the owners failed to keep them informed of what was going on at the start of the pandemic before then unilaterally cutting wages. The damage to the league was self-inflicted here, and just keeping the players better informed and listening to them probably would have gone a long way. jonovision 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_M Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 season including pre season is around 8 months..they can keep fit in the other four months while having a part time job..this is just the reality of an entry level pro soccer league in north america..owners dont want to lose millions and people are doing their best to make this work financially..so appreciate the opportunity and hope for higher revenues to be able to pay higher salaries..if really not happy there is no obligation..we've seen a few players decide to not sign to be able to be with their business or job..and majority of these players would just not be playing pro if this league wasnt here..first time I heard this champ guy I knew they were getting ready for a confrontation..this is a big mistake Ams1984 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, Big_M said: season including pre season is around 8 months..they can keep fit in the other four months while having a part time job..this is just the reality of an entry level pro soccer league in north america..owners dont want to lose millions and people are doing their best to make this work financially..so appreciate the opportunity and hope for higher revenues to be able to pay higher salaries..if really not happy there is no obligation..we've seen a few players decide to not sign to be able to be with their business or job..and majority of these players would just not be playing pro if this league wasnt here..first time I heard this champ guy I knew they were getting ready for a confrontation..this is a big mistake Assuming the players get a part time job for the other 4 months, you're still asking the majority of them to live on less than 22k for 8 months. That's still shockingly low, though maybe it depends on what part of the country you're in too. And "do it for the exposure" and be a pretty exploitative practice. Look, the league heavily promoted "making sure every player had a living wage" before it started. It's clearly fallen short of that. It doesn't meant the league's a failure, it just means its something that needs to be acknowledged and worked on. jonovision 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_M Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 its just not shockingly low..didnt do the math but 22k for 8 months seems much above minimum salary..and if they are getting a free place and food even better..its really not hard to get..this is entry level pro soccer which if it wasnt there a large number would still be playing semi pro..and you know how much they were getting there..0-5000 for a lot of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stouffvillain Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Labour talk is the most barf worthy sports discussion possible. Those players are making that much because no one else is willing to pay them anything to play. After 9 months of no CPL I’d rather talk about games. Aird25 and johnyb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 I can't find the thread now that was earlier today talking about TSN and Sportsnet ignoring CPL. I just thought I'd mention that the on-air talent do make mention. Luke Wileman during the TFC vs Whitecaps game was just talking about the referee's assistant making her debut in MLS. He mentioned that she did the 3rd place game in the women's World Cup last year, and has done some CPL games as well. "It's not just the players and coaches that get opportunities in the CPL, it's officials as well." That quote is an approximation. johnyb, Ruffian, Trois Reds and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison44 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Kent said: I can't find the thread now that was earlier today talking about TSN and Sportsnet ignoring CPL. I just thought I'd mention that the on-air talent do make mention. Luke Wileman during the TFC vs Whitecaps game was just talking about the referee's assistant making her debut in MLS. He mentioned that she did the 3rd place game in the women's World Cup last year, and has done some CPL games as well. "It's not just the players and coaches that get opportunities in the CPL, it's officials as well." That quote is an approximation. The on on air, play by play guys arent the problem. I didnt catch the highlight packages to see who covered what, but look at the websites for TSN and Sportsnet. Sportsnet has stories about everything u need to know about the Island games, CPL round up etc. Then check TSN, I cant find anything, no stories, no links etc. Like its the chinese internet and its been scrubbed of the CPL. CanadianSoccerFan, Cheeta, narduch and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 7 hours ago, Watchmen said: If this is the mentality and I'm a player, I'm only signing one year deals with my CPL team and leaving on a free transfer as soon as I get a better offer. Why bother letting the club sell me, when I could get more as a free agent? Well without league/stage to showcase your talent and actually improve, you aren't going anywhere significantly better or nowhere at all. With USL no longer counting Canadians as domestic next year, that's another door closing and there goes your bargaining power Last year was Year 1, technically most of the players were "rookies" coming from semi-pro or developmental leagues. How much are they worth on the market? If CPL pays significantly below market value than yeah that's awful but I don't think they are. Players have their "value and future" entirely under their control. Work hard and get a raise or moved somewhere better. As the league progress and players gains experience, salaries will go up as their value will also increase, even more if they perform A union is an excellent thing to cover benefits, work conditions, legal stuff and better salaries but it's not ok if the goal is to get the league to pay above market value this soon with such a small pool with pro experience...otherwise how sure are you that the 6 starting Canadian rule will still be a thing? Might as well make it worth their while and pay those higher wages to foreigners who might help draw more fans with a higher quality product...but at what price? Less Canadian minutes...Do we want that? Action - reaction johnyb, Stouffvillain and Ams1984 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialK Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 this is from 2018 but here is a kind of a guide for salaries in pro sports including soccer. https://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202018.pdf interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialK Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Do players get a portion in the revenue/advertising Like in most leagues ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 12 hours ago, Kent said: I can't find the thread now that was earlier today talking about TSN and Sportsnet ignoring CPL. I just thought I'd mention that the on-air talent do make mention. Luke Wileman during the TFC vs Whitecaps game was just talking about the referee's assistant making her debut in MLS. He mentioned that she did the 3rd place game in the women's World Cup last year, and has done some CPL games as well. "It's not just the players and coaches that get opportunities in the CPL, it's officials as well." That quote is an approximation. I was hoping they would mention the Y9 vs PFC game during the Whitecaps vs TFC game. Nothing! And essentially these games are all part of the greater Voyageurs Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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