CPL General

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

56 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...CPL not only needs to restrain itself on salaries, it needs to do so on everything else, including admin and technical direction costs. I would personally take a look at coach's salaries: if we have 7 and now 8 coaches being paid more than any single player on the respective team, we are screwing ourselves that way too.

There's supposed to be a salary cap for the coaches as well, so think that part is sorted.

12 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Financially, this might make sense for the league, and fans (at this moment anyways) might not be driven away by the standard of play. But I think it's troubling to basically have a league that's 'pay to play' in the sense that you'd basically need to be supported by your family to have a career in soccer at those wage levels...

What if your alternatives are flipping burgers or working at the 7/11? Think you are overstating things a bit. Sure there are lots of people who can easily make more with another type of career, but that's not necessarily the demographic that tends to wind up being a pro level soccer player in the first place, because of the various life choices that are involved along the way.

Bottom line is that there were probably more empty seats last summer than the league investors had hoped would be the case everywhere other than Halifax. That factor comes into the equation as well on what's doable and the expectation levels that surrounded this league online have always been very much out in the stratosphere. Think it's a mistake to underestimate the scale of the achievement it would be to have a coast-to-coast ten team plus domestic pro league a couple of seasons from now that can sustain salaries in the $40-60k range for core projected starters.

[BuzzAndSting]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Having been an adult back in the 80s, it really hasn't changed so much beyond having a few different gadgets.

Right, like that little gadget the "internet." That hasn't really changed anything.

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

Sure, there is a finite number of Canadians playing soccer. But that number is in excess of what the league needs to fill roster spots in a seven-to-ten team league, as evidenced by the oodles of Canadians playing for peanuts (or no nuts) in marginal leagues or far-flung locations - not to mention local guys for whom pay is a secondary concern. The league has had no trouble staffing up, and that's without legions of higher-paid Canadian pros returning home from Europe and without emptying USL of all Canadians, let alone the Fury.

You must have missed the years of debate and hand wringing on this site about where the players would come from and worry about the quality of the play.  Sure, AFTER the league has had a good quality first season and fully stocked 7 clubs you can say its no big deal.  But plenty of doom and gloomers told us it would be "beer league" low quality semi pro ball without enough money to bring back bigger name pros.  

[ted]

16 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Is Rob Friend getting paid?

I haven't asked but I would doubt he is taking a salary. I assume he stepped in as an owner into that role to save operating expenses. 

[Ansem]

-The league is less than a year old.

-Most of the Canadians domestics on CPL teams aren't worth more on the players market, certainly not coming out of our universities, our D3, USL or lower tier elsewhere. If anything, CPL has increased most of their values. 

-We knew from the get go that our pool was thin, being shocked that CPL isn't overpaying for their actual value is plain bad faith. We ALL want Canadians to get paid well and make a good living but it will take time. The reality is not many elsewhere were willing to pay them more so that's just market value rules here.

-The salaries will increase like everyone else, from A-League to K-League and others...yes even MLS so why on earth would it be any different for CPL?

-Truth is that the league opting to find affordable younger internationals capable of increasing the level of play makes them smart. There's lots of talent out there capable of fitting what they are looking for in terms of cost and talent.

-So if CPL isn't a pro league because of the current salaries, MLS wasn't a pro league until much later in it's lifetime. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ansem

[narduch]

And to change the subject. Looks like the new kits are being unveiled on Feb. 27. Saw tweets from Cavalry and York9.

[RickC]

4 minutes ago, narduch said:

And to change the subject. Looks like the new kits are being unveiled on Feb. 27. Saw tweets from Cavalry and York9.

Received the email from Forge FC re Feb 27th kit unveiling from  6:30 to 8:30 p.m. 

[gator]

I think I'll attend the new Forge kit unveiling, it's always a good night at THF Club level, it's doubtful I'll buy one of the new ones no matter how cool they might be!

[yellowsweatygorilla]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What if your alternatives are flipping burgers or working at the 7/11? Think you are overstating things a bit. Sure there are lots of people who can easily make more with another type of career, but that's not necessarily the demographic that tends to wind up being a pro level soccer player in the first place, because of the various life choices that are involved along the way.

The reality is that we have lost players already - we know that. The biggest example is Lefebvre, but I know a whole bunch of L1O players who rejected contract offers, but would've accepted if they could actually make a living on it.

(slight aside, but what underpins my thinking is also that flipping burgers should get you a living wage...)

The other issue though is that it's not like players are only work 6 months as everyone keep saying. Training camp starts in March and the season ends at the start of November. That means a little over 8 months. Players deserve a couple weeks after in the post season, so let's just say 9 months. That means they only have 3 months to supplement their income.

Why do we want people living in poverty (or reliant on family) to subsidize the sport?

And I don't think it's fair to say that wages have no impact on player performances. That only might make sense if you assume player ability remains stagnant and that the current pool of players are willing to work for low wages. Don't we want players to be able to fully commit and focus on training? I know as a teacher, a lot of my students tell me how hard it is to focus on the work while juggling other jobs. It's no surprise that multiple studies have shown finances are one of the major issue for why students drop out of school. I think there's consistencies here with football. I want them to be able to properly commit to this as a career instead of having to see it as a gamble for potential future returns.

 

----

 

And just to be clear, I think close to everything else the league has done in year 1 has been fantastic. I don't see myself as a naysayer for the league. I am also happy with the standard of football on display. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by yellowsweatygorilla

[Kent]

Sorry for the tangent, but to come back to the "lack of parity killed the recent NASL" claim. I thought I'd look into this a bit.

Reasons for folding.

City joined MLS: (3) Atlanta, Minnesota, Montreal
City joined USL: (4) Indianapolis, North Carolina, Ottawa, Tampa Bay
Folded before the final season: (3) Fort Lauderdale, Oklahoma City (joined despite there already being a USL team there), San Antonio
Made it through the final season: (6) Edmonton, Jacksonville, Miami, New York, Puerto Rico, San Francisco

Note that Puerto Rico folded but then came back for the last couple seasons. This doesn't take into account whether teams were pushed or pulled to USL, or which of the final season teams would have stuck it out if they could have, but it's worth noting that only Puerto Rico and San Francisco fully folded. The others all went to CPL or NPSL.

Now for the lack of parity in the NASL. Here is a look at the champions for the last 5 years it operated.

Spring champions: Atlanta, Minnesota, New York, Indy, Miami
Fall champions: New York (2) , San Antonio, Ottawa, Miami
Combined table: Carolina, Minnesota, New York (2), Miami
Soccer bowl: New York (3), San Antonio, San Francisco

Total of all 4 combined: New York (8), Miami (3), San Antonio (2), Minnesota (2), San Francisco, Carolina, Ottawa, Atlanta, Indianapolis.

This doesn't exactly scream a lack of parity to me. 9 different teams over those 5 years were competitive enough to win at least a split season, and this is in a league that varied from 7 to 12 teams in size over those years.

Now back to your regularly scheduled CPL discussion. Looking forward to see the new jerseys. Hopefully there there are unique sponsors for each team (I guess I'd give Ottawa a free pass this time around).

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

38 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

...I want them to be able to properly commit to this as a career...

I'd want Hamilton Accies to appear regularly in the Champions League. Doesn't mean it's ever going to happen. Life is like that. You don't always get what you want, but there can still be some very sweet moments along the way like when they beat Celtic at Parkhead a few years back for the first time since the late 1930s.

The far side bleachers needed to be filled regularly at Y9 games last summer for the level of league you crave to be likely any time soon. Instead they were giving away freebies by the fistful by all accounts to even be able to get the level of crowds they attracted. The owners are going to decide what they are willing to sustain.

If for the next decade or so CanPL provides a place for players to give pro soccer a try for a few years to see if they have what it takes to move on to a higher level where they could definitely make a career out of it financially then that's still well worthwile. A lot of people will enjoy watching a very decent level of pro soccer, and Tristan Borges and Joel Waterman won't be the last to get that big transfer.

If some players decide another career to pay the bills and playing in L1O on the side is better for them then that's fine as well and is nothing out of the ordinary in soccer terms globally. Only a select few are actually good enough to make the grade and earn the really big money, but that doesn't mean that still being involved in soccer at some level isn't worth it.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

43 minutes ago, Kent said:

...This doesn't exactly scream a lack of parity to me....

I stated that it was an unsustainable wage inflation spiral (caused by the overspending of the Cosmos and FC Miami) that helped kill off the second NASL. You have gone off on a bizarre tangent and have even stooped as low as putting something in quotes that was never written in any post as part of building your strawman argument.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, ted said:

I haven't asked but I would doubt he is taking a salary. I assume he stepped in as an owner into that role to save operating expenses. 

That's incredibly naive, Ted. I was asking rhetorically. 

If he is not taking anything from the club it would be a miracle. How do you think he lives?

These ex players and longtime coaches have all taken care of themselves first, from Brennan to Gale, Friend, Hart--I'd like them to reveal what the FOs are making, what the technical staff coaching and supporting are making, and then compare with the players. 

All they are doing, I suspect, is use the cap on players' salaries to subsidize their own solid incomes. I find it unethical if my suspicion is correct.

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I stated that it was an unsustainable wage inflation spiral (caused by the overspending of the Cosmos and FC Miami) that helped kill off the second NASL. You have gone off on a bizarre tangent and have even stooped as low as putting something in quotes that was never written in any post as part of building your strawman argument.

Apologies for the lazy use of quotes. Here you go.

”A level of parity that gives every team a chance at winning a championship eventually is vital at this point.”

That was in the next paragraph but it seemed to me to be related to your earlier point about wages spiraling out of control.

[Aird25]

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

-Most of the Canadians domestics on CPL teams aren't worth more on the players market, certainly not coming out of our universities, our D3, USL or lower tier elsewhere. If anything, CPL has increased most of their values. 

-We knew from the get go that our pool was thin, being shocked that CPL isn't overpaying for their actual value is plain bad faith. We ALL want Canadians to get paid well and make a good living but it will take time. The reality is not many elsewhere were willing to pay them more so that's just market value rules here

If MLS reserve roster players are making double the CPL average, then I would say there is a disconnect in player valuations between the two leagues operating in our country. That could certainly be on the MLS side of things, but it is something that will affect where players choose to sign and how players move between the two leagues.

[Stouffvillain]

I probably know the answer but I’ll ask anyway. Has there been any indication on when we can expect the schedule to be released? 

[Winnipeg Fury]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

That's incredibly naive, Ted. I was asking rhetorically. 

If he is not taking anything from the club it would be a miracle. How do you think he lives?

These ex players and longtime coaches have all taken care of themselves first, from Brennan to Gale, Friend, Hart--I'd like them to reveal what the FOs are making, what the technical staff coaching and supporting are making, and then compare with the players. 

All they are doing, I suspect, is use the cap on players' salaries to subsidize their own solid incomes. I find it unethical if my suspicion is correct.

 

Not to butt in on this, but I had heard originally the coach salaries were not part of the player budgets.  I can't remember the dollar figure, but it was a significant number that could be allocated to coaches.  DeGuzman in Ottawa received  in excess of this amount, which was one of the theories why he was against CPL from the on-set.

Why am I posting this..........??

[Cblake]

Has there been an example of a player choosing a CPL offer over an MLS one that we know?

[yellowsweatygorilla]

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

Has there been an example of a player choosing a CPL offer over an MLS one that we know?

Didn't David Choinière forgo a contract extension at Montreal?

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Didn't David Choinière forgo a contract extension at Montreal?

It was more of a contract to Ottawa.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Cblake said:

Has there been an example of a player choosing a CPL offer over an MLS one that we know?

There was speculation that Jose Hernandez signed with Pacific rather than a homegrown player contract with the Whitecaps last year. 

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

There was speculation that Jose Hernandez signed with Pacific rather than a homegrown player contract with the Whitecaps last year. 

Marcel Zajac

https://forgefc.canpl.ca/video/sandor-forge-fcs-zajac-takes-control-of-future-with-canadian-premier-league-move

This year, as a junior, he was already ranked at No. 87 on Top Drawer Soccer’s rankings of the NCAA’s top prospects. Another great year and he would have likely moved up that ladder. At least two MLS clubs had already shown an interest in Zajac, and he spent a week training with the Columbus Crew.

 

‘GETTING LOST’ 

“If you look at past drafts, the players don’t get a lot of regular minutes in MLS,” Zajac told CanPL.ca. “They end up going to USL, and they get lost in the process. I think, for me, it’s better to go and establish myself as a professional in a national league. It doesn’t mean what I think will work for me will work for everyone.”

[ted]

21 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

That's incredibly naive, Ted. I was asking rhetorically. 

If he is not taking anything from the club it would be a miracle. How do you think he lives?

WTF are you talking about?!?  How is that rhetorical?!?! Do you even read what you write?!?!

Rob Friend is one of the owners of the club and if you think his survival depends on a salary from the club you are the one being naive. 

As an owner he takes a share in any profits which, as has been debated to death on these forums for a decade, will likely NOT be forthcoming in the first few years. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The CSB share is probably already revenue positive. Think clubs can take a dividend or reinvest?

[Unnamed Trialist]

42 minutes ago, ted said:

WTF are you talking about?!?  How is that rhetorical?!?! Do you even read what you write?!?!

Rob Friend is one of the owners of the club and if you think his survival depends on a salary from the club you are the one being naive. 

As an owner he takes a share in any profits which, as has been debated to death on these forums for a decade, will likely NOT be forthcoming in the first few years. 

Who is the CEO or general manager of the club, Ted?

Is is habitual for people with such posts to not be paid? I don't think so.

In any case, I recognize I may be wrong, I do not know, there is no transparency on salaries of club staff. 

My point is that we should not be asking only players to bite the bullet, there has to be equal restraint for an entire organisation. And for the entire league. Sponsors, the Mediapro contract, local resources, that all has to go to benefit the club but not leave the players as the only ones below minimum wage.