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On 8/22/2019 at 2:51 PM, narduch said:

I think a lot more people saw through Mo Johnston's b.s.  He basically used this as an excuse to have the Canadian quotas drastically reduced. 

We've seen with the CPL that the MLS rules are horseshit.  

I don’t get what your on about here ? I posted something before and mentioned that just like in the early days of TFC there have been players that we have always talked about , Canadian players who have played in various lower leagues in Europe who have come back and are now playing in the CPL who have not impressed. It’s similar to the early TFC days where Canadian players who had played in lower level leagues around the world came to play for TFC and could not cut it. Now I’m not one to defend Mo he was a disaster for TFC , but if he cut quotas it’s because the Canadian players who where playing for TFC at the time were just not good enough and that’s not surprising if you look at where say a guy like Reda had played in Europe. Yes the MLS at the time and now is no La Liga but let’s be honest it’s a higher caliber than the Swedish second division or the Danish lower leagues where some of the early Canadian players for TFC had played . Let’s put it this way if your going to stock your team with Canadians who are coming from the lower leagues in Scandinavia even in the CPL your better off going with League 1 Ontario players as we have seen. Mo was too stupid to realize that there were probably  better Canadian players playing in the amateur men’s leagues in Toronto than some of the Canadians he brought in from the lower leagues of Europe.

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I just wish all the Canadians playing abroad in good leagues (which there is about 150 of them automatically made the  move over to the CPL and “save them”, as most of these players are fortunate enough to have signed elsewhere and become professionals outside of Canada’s borders but there’s many young players that get released eventually and quit forever. I like that our league is focusing on youth that’s here, but these dual nationals still deserve to be considered 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, SoccMan said:

...Mo was too stupid to realize that there were probably  better Canadian players playing in the amateur men’s leagues in Toronto than some of the Canadians he brought in from the lower leagues of Europe.

To be fair they did have a huge open tryout and the Lynx were still around at that point. From what I remember he may have leaned too heavily on Carmine Isacco for that because the local signings tended to have been coached by him previously, but the bottom line is they still tried hard to make the Canadian angle work even after the first season with high profile signings like Gerba and JDG and it just wasn't working, because the player pool simply wasn't there to sustain it.

MLS exposed how weak the CMNT and the CSA's youth development system was at that point compared to what was happening in the United States and to this day some people cannot cope with that emotionally and build bizarre conspiracy theories about the league being anti-Canadian rather than face that unpalatable truth.

TFC, the Impact and Whitecaps then invested tens of millions into their Academy programs, which played a significant role in developing many of the domestic players we are seeing in CanPL today. It takes a small-minded nationalism of truly toxic proportions to develop a narrative in which MLS has been bad for the development of Canadian players over the last 5 to 10 years.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot

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54 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

To be fair they did have a huge open tryout and the Lynx were still around at that point. From what I remember he may have leaned too heavily on Carmine Isacco for that because the local signings tended to have been coached by him previously, but the bottom line is they still tried hard to make the Canadian angle work even after the first season with high profile signings like Gerba and JDG and it just wasn't working, because the player pool simply wasn't there to sustain it.

MLS exposed how weak the CMNT and the CSA's youth development system was at that point compared to what was happening in the United States and to this day some people cannot cope with that emotionally and build bizarre conspiracy theories about the league being anti-Canadian rather than face that unpalatable truth.

TFC, the Impact and Whitecaps then invested tens of millions into their Academy programs, which played a significant role in developing many of the domestic players we are seeing in CanPL today. It takes a small-minded nationalism of truly toxic proportions to develop a narrative in which MLS has been bad for the development of Canadian players over the last 5 to 10 years.

You must have a boiler plate for this topic.  It's the same garbage over and over again from you dripped in condescension and always with a couple of insults. Don't be dick. 

The 3 Canadian MLS teams have not done a good enough job. It only took 1 season of CPL to expose them. The MLS Canadian quota is a joke and should be raised. With the final goal of having all Canadians considered domestic league wide. 

And to say that MLS doesn't discriminate Canadian players is a bald face lie on your part. 

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9 hours ago, SoccMan said:

I don’t get what your on about here ? I posted something before and mentioned that just like in the early days of TFC there have been players that we have always talked about , Canadian players who have played in various lower leagues in Europe who have come back and are now playing in the CPL who have not impressed. It’s similar to the early TFC days where Canadian players who had played in lower level leagues around the world came to play for TFC and could not cut it. Now I’m not one to defend Mo he was a disaster for TFC , but if he cut quotas it’s because the Canadian players who where playing for TFC at the time were just not good enough and that’s not surprising if you look at where say a guy like Reda had played in Europe. Yes the MLS at the time and now is no La Liga but let’s be honest it’s a higher caliber than the Swedish second division or the Danish lower leagues where some of the early Canadian players for TFC had played . Let’s put it this way if your going to stock your team with Canadians who are coming from the lower leagues in Scandinavia even in the CPL your better off going with League 1 Ontario players as we have seen. Mo was too stupid to realize that there were probably  better Canadian players playing in the amateur men’s leagues in Toronto than some of the Canadians he brought in from the lower leagues of Europe.

I'm tired of this lazy argument that Canadians aren't good enough. Perhaps Mo Johnston was just so bad at his job that he used the Canadian player content as a crutch to prolong his stay. 

Mainly I think TFC should have worked harder to get Canadian players into the squad. I don't believe it would have been a detriment to the team's success in the long run. 

As we saw, even after the quota was shrunk TFC continued to be awful. 

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CPL teams are littered with players who came through the MLS academies (or even full-fledged MLS first teams like Porter, Bekker, Telfer, Camargo and others), so it's a bit disingenuous to say CPL teams have "exposed" them.

If anything, CPL provides a desperately needed level of play for the players who could not cut it at MLS clubs at early ages. In addition, it provides a wider net for the younger players who got overlooked by MLS clubs for one reason or another, as 3 teams is never going to be enough to unearth all the talent in this country.

Regardless, the average Canadian players currently on MLS contracts are much, much better than the average Canadian on those early TFC teams, and a lot of that has to do with the money spent of development. This can be acknowledged as being true while also acknowledging that more was needed and still needs to be done (hence the advent of the CPL).

I will never disagree that all Canadians should be considered domestic league-wide in MLS, though. That rule needs to change yesterday.

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21 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Also, for the PCSL, the Playoffs & Finals only consisted of a 4-team single-elimination bracket (3 games) in 2017, 2018, and 2019. So, uh, not the same thing.

Right, I forgot they dropped the consolation game. Not really necessary.

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13 hours ago, RS said:

CPL teams are littered with players who came through the MLS academies (or even full-fledged MLS first teams like Porter, Bekker, Telfer, Camargo and others), so it's a bit disingenuous to say CPL teams have "exposed" them.

If anything, CPL provides a desperately needed level of play for the players who could not cut it at MLS clubs at early ages. In addition, it provides a wider net for the younger players who got overlooked by MLS clubs for one reason or another, as 3 teams is never going to be enough to unearth all the talent in this country.

Regardless, the average Canadian players currently on MLS contracts are much, much better than the average Canadian on those early TFC teams, and a lot of that has to do with the money spent of development. This can be acknowledged as being true while also acknowledging that more was needed and still needs to be done (hence the advent of the CPL).

I will never disagree that all Canadians should be considered domestic league-wide in MLS, though. That rule needs to change yesterday.

Of those guys you mentioned, only Porter came up through a MLS academy and even then I think he was with Vancouver before it was in MLS.  Bekker was SIgma/Boston Collage, Telfer was at York/Usports, camgaro was in NCAA and they dropped into MLS laps (joined in their 20's), ie could have dropped into CPL laps just as easily has they been around at the time.   I agree with your point that the academies have produced a bunch of players, but there are much better examples, 

 

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Of those guys you mentioned, only Porter came up through a MLS academy and even then I think he was with Vancouver before it was in MLS.  Bekker was SIgma/Boston Collage, Telfer was at York/Usports, camgaro was in NCAA and they dropped into MLS laps (joined in their 20's), ie could have dropped into CPL laps just as easily has they been around at the time.   I agree with your point that the academies have produced a bunch of players, but there are much better examples, 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn’t using those guys as examples of guys who came through the MLS academies (hence the “or” in my statement). 

They were still youngish guys who had first-team MLS contracts but for one reason or another they didn’t stick. CPL now acts as a “safety net” for these types of players as well as the ones who never got a sniff of first-team action, which is great.

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I believe next month in September marks 6 months prior to the 2020 USL Championship season. Which means that it’s the minimum advancement of any club to advise the league that it’s leaving. 

In the Case for Ottawa Fury, I hope they move over to the CPL! And we can put this all behind us. We need a balanced schedule, week in week out (no byes) and also with Concacaf league already known, it can be 14/14 not 10/18. Little improvements that make a huge difference 

IMO the league should change the number of imports from 7 to 5. And have 25 player limit instead of 23.

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10 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

I believe next month in September marks 6 months prior to the 2020 USL Championship season. Which means that it’s the minimum advancement of any club to advise the league that it’s leaving. 

In the Case for Ottawa Fury, I hope they move over to the CPL! And we can put this all behind us. We need a balanced schedule, week in week out (no byes) and also with Concacaf league already known, it can be 14/14 not 10/18. Little improvements that make a huge difference 

IMO the league should change the number of imports from 7 to 5. And have 25 player limit instead of 23.

I'm hopeful that the Fury will join the CPL as well.  But have heard zilch on that front from the club (not even rumours of rumours).  So unless something surprising happens, I expect another season of visits from our USL rivals in 2020.  

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11 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

 

...

 

IMO the league should change the number of imports from 7 to 5. And have 25 player limit instead of 23.

I'll be surprised if the roster isn't increased.  Think every team has experienced hardship this season because of that limit.

I'm OK with leaving the import ceiling at 7, regardless of whatever the roster ceiling is set at for in 2020.  There will obviously have to be a cap adjustment to accomodiate the increase.  

I'll also be surprised if the CPL rosters don't become victoms of their own success.  There may be a few players who'll be difficult to retain in the off season, multi-year contracts or no.  

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All they need to do on the roster size is allow more callups from lower level teams like they are already doing with goalkeepers. I'd cut the imports back to 3 per roster and go for quality only like Malonga and Escalante who can raise the overall level of play. No need for inexperienced Belgian goalies or English forwards parachuted in from semi-pro teams in New Zealand who were never able to cut it at the pro level in England.

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On 8/24/2019 at 5:18 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

To be fair they did have a huge open tryout and the Lynx were still around at that point. From what I remember he may have leaned too heavily on Carmine Isacco for that because the local signings tended to have been coached by him previously, but the bottom line is they still tried hard to make the Canadian angle work even after the first season with high profile signings like Gerba and JDG and it just wasn't working, because the player pool simply wasn't there to sustain it.

I might be wrong, but I thought the connection wasn't Isacco but that all those first year TFC Canadians had the same agent - Barry MacLean.

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I was thinking more about the teenagers that were signed from the local youth soccer scene and played in reserve games more than the fringe CMNT players that returned from Europe. Maycoll Canizalez is probably the poster child for what Soccman had in mind in terms of there probably having been better options in the OSL.

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On 8/22/2019 at 12:00 PM, m-g-williams said:

Random question: when the CPL eventually hits 12 and later 16 teams, how many matches in a given season are we expecting (full campaign, not factoring in A/C split)? I was musing about some figures the other day and realized I have no idea how the number of matches would be calculated (never been great with keeping tournament formats straight). I imagine for 12 it'd be something like playing each other team three times for a 33 game season, then for 16 playing each other team twice for a 30 game season so things aren't unwieldy? Or am I out to lunch? 

I think we're going to see a 28-game apertura-clausura format with end-of-season playoffs for the foreseeable future. That will provide scheduling certainty and stability year in and year out even as the number of CanPL clubs remain fluid as they join/fold each season. I don't see single table coming until they reach at least 18 clubs and split the league into Div 1 and Div 2. Even then, the single table would be a 10-team, 27 game schedule until they get Div 2 up to 15 clubs. That's going to be at least a decade away.

Also, the Canadian climate has a limited window for games - there are 30 weekends between the first weekend of April and the last weekend of October. That would just allow CanPL to squeeze in a 16-club balanced schedule, with games occurring during the international breaks. Personally, I would like to see league games happen only on weekends, leaving mid-week game timeslots available for Concacaf League, CCL, Voyaguers Cup, and friendly matches with good foreign clubs in pre-season form.  

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:13 PM, Bison44 said:

Of those guys you mentioned, only Porter came up through a MLS academy and even then I think he was with Vancouver before it was in MLS.  Bekker was SIgma/Boston Collage, Telfer was at York/Usports, camgaro was in NCAA and they dropped into MLS laps (joined in their 20's), ie could have dropped into CPL laps just as easily has they been around at the time.   I agree with your point that the academies have produced a bunch of players, but there are much better examples, 

 

 

 

 

 

just FYI Camargo went to the NCAA from the TFC academy where he spent 4 years

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45 minutes ago, to70 said:

just FYI Camargo went to the NCAA from the TFC academy where he spent 4 years

He even assisted on a goal against Liverpool in a friendly back in 2012 before he even turned 18.

 

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2 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

Wait, what? I thought that's exactly what to70 said.

It is. I'm an idiot who read it incorrectly.

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On 8/25/2019 at 4:50 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

All they need to do on the roster size is allow more callups from lower level teams like they are already doing with goalkeepers.

This is what I was thinking. In particular if/when the clubs get academies. No need to have them on the roster for the full year, just some emergency call ups that get some sort of standard pay rate for the days they are with the club.

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I honestly think the leagues’s average attendance could be a lot higher if it 40 of the 98 Total games weren’t on a WEEKDAY!

Even bigger reason why we need fury in the CPL. To balance the schedule and play fixtures on Friday’s and Saturday’s mostly. And also is more appealing for the fan to know where each team stands as they’ve all played the same amount of games 

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