Rheo Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America. They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level. Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Rheo said: I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America. They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level. Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time That's true. Get up to 20 teams first and then we'll see. Rheo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Well... If true that will be an interesting look. I'll reserve judgement before proclaiming it the death of CPL/literally the best thing to ever happen in Canadian soccer Good angle for attracting purists though, and presumably gives a place within CPL for teams looking at a lower wage budget while still giving smaller markets the allure of (a chance at) the top flight I'm split between skepticism and intrigue GuillermoDelQuarto, ironcub14 and Rheo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 I mean if it's regionally based it might actually help cut travel costs in some ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) I was actually feeling that my only reservation is that 16 teams feels like a bit much. Surprised to see others saying the opposite that 20 would be when you put in tier 2. I think with the markets available to Canada, 10-14 would feel like an optimal long-term size for a top flight league where I would start doing tier 2. After that, the cities available become a bit of a stretch. Edited June 1, 2017 by Diamondium Ivanovski94 and GuillermoDelQuarto 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Rheo said: I was never against pro/rel, just didn't think it feasible in North America. They've got a huge set of balls though planning to get to that level. Good on them, although I'm sure there's nothing to expect for quite a long time I wonder if it's part of the feasibility though. Say you want to get a 16-20 team league in Canada with high/complete revenue sharing. We've all beat into the ground that half of those markets have little chance of drawing the crowds/tv audience to justify spending 1.5M on wages. So instead of splitting salary equally and ensuring only big markets can get into CPL (a criticism of MLS we have seen), what if you had the large majority (say 75%) of revenue funnelled towards the top tier and the minority to the second tier. The second tier could have a proportionally lower cap/budget and remain financially viable, but actually attract a fanbase by not getting ghettoized as a permanent minor league team. Maybe a tiered system with pyramid-wide revenue sharing is the only way we get to the 20+ team system we scoffed at, truly a "hybrid" system that takes the best from MLS and traditional leagues. Edited June 1, 2017 by Complete Homer ironcub14, Kibby and johnyb 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Ideally: CPL Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes) Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2 CPL 2 or Canadian Championship Mid size markets 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West) Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycoyster Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ansem said: Ideally: CPL Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes) Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2 CPL 2 or Canadian Championship Mid size markets 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West) Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League That would require an insane number of teams to sprout out of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 11 minutes ago, Diamondium said: I was actually feeling that my only reservation is that 16 teams feels like a bit much. Surprised to see others saying the opposite that 20 would be when you put in tier 2. I think with the markets available to Canada, 10-14 would feel like an optimal long-term size for a top flight league where I would start doing tier 2. After that, the cities available become a bit of a stretch. I went into more detail in the CPL2 thread as to why I would talk about a CPL2 at 20 teams, rather than at 16 or a lower number. The reason being that, to create a CPL2, you need enough teams in both CPL1 and in CPL2. If CPL hits 16 teams, and then decrees it will implement pro/rel within 1-3 years, the best scenario you could hope for would be where maybe there's 4 new teams in the pyramid for something like a 10-team CPL1 and a 10-team CPL2, correct? To me, the benefits of pro/rel would be outweighed by the disadvantages of having two small 10-team divisions, where we're once again talking about travel costs and etc. I would wait until we have about 20 teams in CPL, where we could seriously discuss having at least two 12-team divisions. But yeah, there really aren't very many markets for something like this to happen. Everything I said above, I honestly can't see it happening until like 2050 or something, and CPL became a bigger smashing hit than we could all imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Just now, ironcub14 said: I went into more detail in the CPL2 thread as to why I would talk about a CPL2 at 20 teams, rather than at 16 or a lower number. The reason being that, to create a CPL2, you need enough teams in both CPL1 and in CPL2. If CPL hits 16 teams, and then decrees it will implement pro/rel within 1-3 years, the best scenario you could hope for would be where maybe there's 4 new teams in the pyramid for something like a 10-team CPL1 and a 10-team CPL2, correct? To me, the benefits of pro/rel would be outweighed by the disadvantages of having two small 10-team divisions, where we're once again talking about travel costs and etc. I would wait until we have about 20 teams in CPL, where we could seriously discuss having at least two 12-team divisions. But yeah, there really aren't very many markets for something like this to happen. Everything I said above, I honestly can't see it happening until like 2050 or something, and CPL became a bigger smashing hit than we could all imagine. That's a fair assessment. I just had a bit of a misunderstanding of your position. I was thinking you were implying keeping tier 1 at 20 teams then up and splitting and adding another 20 teams. ironcub14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Diamondium said: That's a fair assessment. I just had a bit of a misunderstanding of your position. I was thinking you were implying keeping tier 1 at 20 teams then up and splitting and adding another 20 teams. Cheers man. Yep, we probably couldn't keep Tier 1 at 16 teams under what Duane tweeted, unless there really was demand later on for 8-12 CPL2 teams to all at once spring out of expansion or L1O/PLSQ and are not already a part of CPL. I would guess that at least 2-4 teams would be relegated to tier 2 to help create and populate a CPL2. But the big thing that I think we all already can conjecture is that this pro/rel system, if ever implemented, would likely be capped at tier 1 and 2 for a long time. And that would definitely soften the blow of relegation. I totally know how this feels because my hometown club is at the bottom of the 2nd division in Korea at the moment. But we can't get relegated any further, as of yet anyways Diamondium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg_29 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Well I posted my issue in the other thread but I'll repost here... I think a big issue with pro/rel in Canada would be the inevitability of it leading to imbalanced east/west ratios at times. Because pro/rel would not take that into account. Gopherbashi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Great point from Homer about drawing the purists in though, seriously. Promise pro/rel at 16 teams. Never hit 16 teams. You can't do pro/rel if you promise it at 16 teams and never hit that GuillermoDelQuarto and Gopherbashi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, harrycoyster said: I don't agree there. I remember watching the Mexico v Netherlands game at the last World Cup at a bar outside Vancouver. The Robben dive really turned a lot of people off who were interested in the game up until that point. Diving and time-wasting are just not acceptable to the average Canadian sports. Up until that point? The game ended right after so even if people lost interest, it doesn't mean anything as any hardcore soccer fan cheering for Mexico would have reacted the same way. Dives that result in penalties and fouls disgust us just as much as they do the casuals, but again, they don't happen enough for them to completely put us off the sport. If you witnessed people watching a great game and then leave in disgust after witnessing a clear dive that resulted in a foul after the 60'th minute, that would be an argument to make, but you'll never witness anything like that. However, becoming "disinterested" after a dive that resulted in a penalty in the 93'rd minute? I don't take anything away from that. Yes, they lost interest in the game because it ended right after, lol. Sure, it left a bad taste in their mouths as it did the hardcore fans, but you'll see those people again for Russia 2018. I stick by what I said, diving is a convenient excuse people use to bash the sport, nothing more. As long as it doesn't become to frequent, it won't have any bearings what so ever. Edited June 1, 2017 by Macksam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oranje Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 57 minutes ago, Ansem said: Ideally: CPL Combo of Top 16 markets with a minimum 1 team per provinces except NFLD, NB and PEI (to help Halifax solidify and create a demand in the Maritimes) Last 2 teams face of in Relegation playoffs, loser goes to CPL 2 CPL 2 or Canadian Championship Mid size markets 3 sub-regional leagues like the CHL (Maritimes-Quebec) (Ontario) (West) Memorial Cup Tournament with the winner promoted to Premier League I could see an 8 team East and West division, with 8th place in each division having a play in series with the 1st place teams in a similarly aligned CPL2. This will ensure you don't have newly promoted Victoria joining the Eastern division and jacking up travel costs for the entire league GuillermoDelQuarto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycoyster Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Just now, Oranje said: I could see an 8 team East and West division, with 8th place in each division having a play in series with the 1st place teams in a similarly aligned CPL2. This will ensure you don't have newly promoted Victoria joining the Eastern division and jacking up travel costs for the entire league That would require at least 32 professional teams. That's decades away. The whole of the US only has 46. ironcub14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, ironcub14 said: Great point from Homer about drawing the purists in though, seriously. Promise pro/rel at 16 teams. Never hit 16 teams. You can't do pro/rel if you promise it at 16 teams and never hit that pure genius edit: not a genuis haha Edited June 1, 2017 by GuillermoDelQuarto ironcub14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oranje Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, harrycoyster said: That would require at least 32 professional teams. That's decades away. The whole of the US only has 46. Well then, it's a good thing I didn't preface my proposed solution with a timeline for rollout Edited June 1, 2017 by Oranje ironcub14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpg_29 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 It would be a little weird having pro/rel with salary caps/restriction.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycoyster Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 14 minutes ago, mpg_29 said: It would be a little weird having pro/rel with salary caps/restriction.. Pro/rel can't exist in a hard-capped league. Maybe with a MLB-style soft cap, but I don't think that works in the context of the CPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Blackdude said: Still it's something. Now the question is will we ever get to 16 teams? I'm sure we could get to 16 teams if we really wanted to. I just hope no one is holding their breath on getting to 16 financially-sustainable teams at a NASL/USL level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibby Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Complete Homer said: I wonder if it's part of the feasibility though. Say you want to get a 16-20 team league in Canada with high/complete revenue sharing. We've all beat into the ground that half of those markets have little chance of drawing the crowds/tv audience to justify spending 1.5M on wages. So instead of splitting salary equally and ensuring only big markets can get into CPL (a criticism of MLS we have seen), what if you had the large majority (say 75%) of revenue funnelled towards the top tier and the minority to the second tier. The second tier could have a proportionally lower cap/budget and remain financially viable, but actually attract a fanbase by not getting ghettoized as a permanent minor league team. Maybe a tiered system with pyramid-wide revenue sharing is the only way we get to the 20+ team system we scoffed at, truly a "hybrid" system that takes the best from MLS and traditional leagues. Makes alot of sense.. have a hard time ever seeing 20 or more teams, until you consider this. GuillermoDelQuarto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 2 hours ago, dsqpr said: None of the competitions you mention regarding a knockout stage are preceded by a fully interlocking schedule that has already determined the winner. The one exception being promotion playoffs, although these do not determine the champions of anything. Knockout football is what CUP competitions are for. LEAGUE competitions determine the winner on points. Everywhere in the World. You know, that big place where football is much more successful than in North America! Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on a league championship as you describe, but with an unbalanced schedule a la MLS Supporters Shield? I guess the real question is, if CPL started out without playoffs and a balanced schedule, but then is forced into an unbalanced schedule to limit travel costs, at that point would you rather they continue with the league champion based on points or should they adopt playoffs? I am not trying to win any argument, you hate playoffs and I like them fine just like I also like regular season champions based on points just fine. I am just curious what anti-playoff minded people think of that hypothetical situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdude Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, dsqpr said: None of the competitions you mention regarding a knockout stage are preceded by a fully interlocking schedule that has already determined the winner. The one exception being promotion playoffs, although these do not determine the champions of anything. Knockout football is what CUP competitions are for. LEAGUE competitions determine the winner on points. Everywhere in the World. You know, that big place where football is much more successful than in North America! Honduras? Costa Rica? Mexico? Is that not somewhere? (Technically Costa Rica isn't a Cup per se, but they determine their champion between the winner of both quadrangulars) Edited June 2, 2017 by Blackdude Kent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfooty Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 3 hours ago, dsqpr said: None of the competitions you mention regarding a knockout stage are preceded by a fully interlocking schedule that has already determined the winner. The one exception being promotion playoffs, although these do not determine the champions of anything. Knockout football is what CUP competitions are for. LEAGUE competitions determine the winner on points. Everywhere in the World. You know, that big place where football is much more successful than in North America! ?☕️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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