Admin Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, longlugan said: No worries Matty...I wasn't offended in the least bit...much more serious issues in this world to take umbrage with. Reasonableness and tolerance are considered signs of suspicious behavior. Cease and desist and react hysterically to all things please. Rintaran, red card, m-g-williams and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Sébastien said: However, if it's one CL and one CCL, you're arguing that something should be taken away from the Voyageurs Cup to give to the CPL. I disagree. That's not my decision to make. My opinion is out there so I'll stick to pointing out the norm in the soccer world. The CSA (under Montagliani) sanctioned CPL as D1 so they (CSA under Reid) might want to own up to it at some point. The norm would point to CPL having the CCL spot, which rewards a team being the best out of 28 games vs. the V Cup who can be won in 3 or 4 games with that ridiculous format which devalues the Cup if you ask me. It's not us fans who are "asking" to devalue the cup to profit CPL, it's the CSA doing that all by themselves by coming up with "questionable" formats and ridiculous bye like TFC just got. Those using the "CPL has to earn a CCL spot" argument, stop deluding yourselves. It's all politics. If the CSA was under Montagliani, MLS and CPL clubs would have started at the same time and he would have most likely put the CCL spot on CPL ahead the V Cup...sending a message to the 3 teams most likely But the CSA is now under Reid, who clearly, wants to accommodate everyone (Starting CPL teams with D3 and below USL) and who doesn't run the CSA like Montagliani (who would have put USL with D3 while CPL with MLS). That's what we have under Reid, so the V Cup will most likely have the CCL spot locked down under his regime. But my point is that whoever runs the CSA ultimately decides what goes on going forward, its politics and "merits" have NOTHING to do with it. You think MLS "merits" 4 CCL spots or was it political? All I'm saying, it would be better energy spent to collectively push the CSA to get TWO CCL Spots (which celebrates what MLS teams has done AND embrace CPL as our D1) and hold them to that instead of wasting time on putting a hierarchy on who's more important...BOTH are important to Canadian Soccer. Us being divided doesn't help accomplish the ultimate goal. It's politics, so we should "lobby" for both, that's what you do in a political environment. @adminIt would be awesome if the V Forums send some kind of official letter on behalf of all of us pushing for that, but we need consensus, not pointless debates. I think this forums could be a force to improve Canadian Soccer as some kind of lobby group. We adopt a position collectively and we tell the CSA about our position. If the majority wants the V Cup to be #1 above else, so be it. But this forum can be so much more than a place for pointless debates and personal attacks. Just my idea of what more can be accomplish with this forum and how you could grow the numbers of people joining it... Empower us to be able to collectively be able to lobby/perhaps makes a difference (the more we are the better) and more people might actually join and get involve if they know they would be heard. Just my opinion of course Edited February 11, 2019 by Ansem Senorpopps and zen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlugan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, admin said: Reasonableness and tolerance are considered signs of suspicious behavior. Cease and desist and react hysterically to all things please. My apologies...I'm usually only like that when my wife is looking for an argument? Senorpopps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_Impact Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) I'm confused, what are we debating here? Didn't Peter tweet that CPL was going to get it's own spot, meaning Canada will have two? One for the best CPL club, and one for the winner of the V cup as usual. Edited February 11, 2019 by Chad_Impact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I can't see them moving the V cup spot to the CPL. The CSA is moving to expand the cup not diminish it, giving every player in this country a (albeit lofty) goal of really playing for something. I think (hope) that concern is not a real one. The Voyageurs > The Forum. We are not the forum, so for this becoming a lobby group it wouldn't be a productive use of our time. We can't even agree on if cheese goes in sandwiches of if the earth is flat or not. I think codifying positions would be more divisive, not a solution to disagreements. The forum does need to get a greater sense of a cooperative goal for the greater good of the game and in general a more positive "hey lets go for a beer attitude". A few things deeply hurt this goal. A decade of nasty city vs city club related bullshit is one. The second is, which also coincided with the first was the rise of social media and the subsequent devolution of all public conversation. I'll make a more detailed post on this elsewhere to start a discussion on it. Sébastien and zen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said: I'm confused, what are we debating here? Didn't Peter tweet that CPL was going to get it's own spot, meaning Canada will have two? One for the best CPL club, and one for the winner of the V cup as usual. No tweeted there was speculation about it It's at the top of this page Edited February 11, 2019 by matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ams1984 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I doesn’t make sense for Canada to get less spots than Nicaragua, Guatemala etc. Now that we have a league, which I’d bet will immediately be better than the aforesaid countries’ leagues, we should definitely be given at least 2 CCL spots. I think that the VC obviously needs and deserves to have 1 CCL spot for the champion, and the CPL should have at a minimum 1 CCL spot. Perhaps also a Concacaf League spot for 2nd place. Keegan and Lofty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Ams1984 said: I doesn’t make sense for Canada to get less spots than Nicaragua, Guatemala etc. Now that we have a league, which I’d bet will immediately be better than the aforesaid countries’ leagues, we should definitely be given at least 2 CCL spots. I think that the VC obviously needs and deserves to have 1 CCL spot for the champion, and the CPL should have at a minimum 1 CCL spot. Perhaps also a Concacaf League spot for 2nd place. We don't get fewer CCL spots than those nations atm. We have a direct spot in it, Guatemala has 1 (they're suspended), and Nicaragua lacks a direct spot. Only the USA and Mexico have multiple direct spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/9/2019 at 4:49 PM, Ansem said: I never understood this belief of having to protect our CPL champions like they were made of glass or something. Leagues sending their champions isn't the exception, it's the norm except for the Caribbeans. I refuse to accept that our teams would do any worse than some of the CFU clubs who's been there so far. Wouldn't players and coach learn much faster by being exposed to the highest level sooner rather than later so they can adjust and improve faster? Our clubs are facing MLS level teams in the Canadian Championship as of this year, no? So if we are to compete against the "2nd best" league in CONCACAF, why can't we be thrown in there with other Central America and CFU clubs? That logic makes no sense to me. The CSA is absolutely justified to request a CCL spot from the get go. If all we get is CL so be it. Hard not to think that the 2020 CCL format won't be changed to reflect the arrival of a new league. Maybe you weren't responding to my comment, but I'd like to point out that my belief is that there should be a mechanism in place so that every nation can find their appropriate level. Maybe that means Canada ends up with 3 spots, the Carribbean with 1, El Salvador with 2, Costa Rica with 4, who knows. I want the results to decide. If it's just decreed from above that Canada is magically awarded another CCL spot, what is going to spur action to give us a 3rd spot? Or if we continually go out in the first round year after year, is someone going to wave a magic wand to move that extra spot down to the CL? The CONCACAF Club Index exists and it could be the perfect tool for determining how many teams each nation gets, and which competition those places go to. Wouldn't you just love to see one of the 4 American spots get relegated down to the CONCACAF League? My idea isn't about protecting CPL teams, it's about taking away the protection of everyone. Nello 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said: Doesn't Concacaf have a working set of coefficients based on club competitions in the region, so we can really know who deserves to be getting byes, spots, etc? Or is it just decided by eye-balling relative league size and club power? Because it is true, if they had a coefficient system, that we'd be at least third over the last 5 years, even with one sole rep. Yes, there is a coefficient system. Canada has the 2nd highest average coefficient of any country (behind Mexico). See below. CONCACAF League (for 2019 season coming up in the fall) Pot Rank Slot 2014–15CCL 2015–16CCL 2016–17CCL 2017–18CL+CCL 2018–19CL+CCL Total Team Pot 1 1 CRC2 18 9 14 5 3 49 2 PAN2 8 10 8 13 8.5 47.5 3 HON2 8 11 11 2 3 35 4 SLV2 5 6 5 11.5 5 32.5 5 CCC2 10 7 5 2 5 29 6 NCA1 6 4 6 5 5.5 26.5 7 PAN3 0 0 0 11 15 26 8 HON3 0 0 0 2 21.5 23.5 Pot 2 9 CCC3 4 5 4 5 5.5 23.5 10 CRC3 0 0 0 2 20.5 22.5 11 GUA2 8 8 6 0 0 20 12 BLZ1 0 8 4 2 2 16 13 SLV3 0 0 0 8.5 6.5 15 14 NCA2 0 0 0 9.5 2 11.5 15 CCC4 0 0 0 2 5 7 16 GUA3 0 0 0 0 0 0 CONCACAF Champions League (for 2019 season coming up in a week) Pot Rank Slot 2013–14 2014–15 2015–16 2016–17 2018 Total Team Pot 1 1 MEX3 29 32 23 15 17 116 Monterrey 2 MEX1 22 11 33 27 12 105 UANL 3 MEX2 10 16 20 30 25 101 Santos Laguna 4 CAN1 10 23 8 22 21 84 Toronto FC 5 USA3 11 13 16 20 17 77 Houston Dynamo 6 MEX4 29 9 18 10 9 75 Toluca 7 USA4 16 20 16 8 5 65 New York Red Bulls[USA] 8 USA1 17 11 14 11 11 64 Atlanta United[USA] Pot 2 9 PAN1 15 4 10 20 8 57 Independiente 10 USA2 13 9 13 14 7 56 Sporting Kansas City 11 CRC1 19 12 10 8 5 54 Saprissa 12 HON1 11 15 10 11 5 52 Marathón 13 GUA1 10 11 8 9 0 38 Guastatoya 14 SLV1 8 4 7 9 7 35 Alianza 15 CCC1 5 4 8 5 4 26 Atlético Pantoja 16 SCL1 0 0 0 0 5 5 Herediano National averages Country Number of slots Average MEX 4 99.25 CAN 1 84 USA 4 65.5 CRC 4 38 PAN 4 38.75 HON 4 32.75 GUA 2 30 NCA 1 26.5 SLV 3 27.5 CCC 3 26.16666667 BLZ 1 16 And for the record, here is my thread that attempts to put it all into one big table. Greatest Cockney Rip Off, Unnamed Trialist and Nello 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Initial B Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Ansem said: Let's just as one voice push for 2 CCL, one for each. That is simply not going to happen because the other national federations will cry foul at best, scream bloody murder at worst. The only slots that Montigliani could give the CPL with a minimal loss of regional political capital would be in the lower Concacaf League, and even then probably only from the Fourth Place of the Caribbean Club Championship. That would actually make the 3rd place game in that competition mean something, similar to the discussion we're having about not giving both CCL slots to the Voyageurs Cup finalists. Shway and Senorpopps 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) I think what will also be interesting is that CDN quota for the Voyaguers Cup. Edited February 11, 2019 by Jahinho Guerro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyb Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 As a compromise VC could get awarded 1.5 spots. Winner of the VC gets a direct route to the CCL and runner up has to play in a playoff against another nation hoping for a second spot. This would still make the final important to avoid the playoff and could still potentially lead to 2 Canadian teams in the CCL. Also would increase the importance of the VC for those thinking 1 spot for CPL Champions would diminish it. This increases the chance of a CPL team making it but doesn't guarantee it. Of course I would be perfectly fine with 1 for VC winner and 1 for CPL winner. I would be disappointed if we continue to have only 1 entry. Just sharing an idea I had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Initial B said: That is simply not going to happen because the other national federations will cry foul at best, scream bloody murder at worst. The only slots that Montigliani could give the CPL with a minimal loss of regional political capital would be in the lower Concacaf League, and even then probably only from the Fourth Place of the Caribbean Club Championship. That would actually make the 3rd place game in that competition mean something, similar to the discussion we're having about not giving both CCL slots to the Voyageurs Cup finalists. Or CONCACAF might just expand the tournament to please everyone. Isn't Montagliani up for re-election next year? Needs to Caribbean and Central American votes... Montagliani denying a 2nd berth to the CSA seems like a long shot anyways if he expands the tournament. So we might be arguing over nothing in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) Concacaf Announces Scotiabank Concacaf League Expansion Canadian Premier League gets 1 spot as of July 2019 (Whoever has the most points by then?) 22 clubs 12 Clubs plays (home/away) on the 1st round. Winners joined the next 10 highest ranked teams in Round 2 for the Round of 16 (Knockout Stage) The Winner of the CONCACAF League goes to 2020 Champions League The remaining 15 clubs will be ranked from 1 to 15 Best next 5 also joins 2020 Champions League CPL path to the 2020 Champions League A CPL club must make it to the round of 16 by winning in round 1. That club must advance to the quarter finals to be part of the final 8 A-If the CPL Club wins, they automatically advance to the 2020 CONCACAF Champions League B-If they lose, they most rank as the top 2 of the losing teams from the quarter finals (tie breakers) to advance to 2020 CONCACAF Champions League https://www.concacafleague.com/en/article/concacaf-announces-scotiabank-concacaf-league-expansion The Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football (Concacaf) today announced that the Scotiabank Concacaf League – the official club championship for Central American and Caribbean clubs – will expand from 16 to 22 teams to include five additional Central American clubs and one Canadian Premier League club for 2019 and beyond. The competition will additionally now serve as the qualifying tournament for Central America clubs to the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League. “We are very excited to take a major step forward to enhance our expanded Concacaf Club Competition Platform,” said Concacaf General Secretary Philippe Moggio. “We are creating a larger Scotiabank Concacaf League that will increase the opportunities for our members in the Caribbean and Central America to play more relevant, competitive matches. With 22 teams participating, the window of access is wider, providing greater chances to qualify to the region’s premier tournament for clubs, the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League.” The competition, which will continue to be played in a knockout format, will now kick off with a preliminary round in July. The 12 clubs set to participate in this initial round will be drawn into six home-and-away fixtures. The winners, to be determined on aggregate goals, will join the top nine ranked Central American clubs and the runner-up of the Caribbean Club Championship in the Round of 16. In addition to qualifying its champion to the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League, the tournament will qualify an additional five teams. At the end of the competition, clubs will we ranked 1-15, in accordance with the competition tie-breaking procedure. The top five ranked clubs will automatically qualify for the 2020 edition of the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League. For 2019, the Member Association slots have been allocated as follows (in alphabetical order by Member Association): Preliminary Round (12 clubs): Belize 1, Canada 2, Caribbean 3, Caribbean 4, Costa Rica 3, El Salvador 2, El Salvador 3, Guatemala 2, Guatemala 3, Honduras 3, Nicaragua 2 and Panama 3Round of 16 (10 + 6 winners of the Preliminary Round): Caribbean 2, Costa Rica 1, Costa Rica 2, El Salvador 1, Guatemala 1, Honduras 1, Honduras 2, Nicaragua 1, Panama 1 and Panama 2. The venue, date and time for the official draw that will sort the participating clubs for the preliminary round and round of 16 will be announced in the coming months. Inaugurated in 2017, the Scotiabank Concacaf League has opened the door for a wider participation of Caribbean and Central American clubs, providing them an opportunity to play more relevant matches, at a higher level and the possibility of qualifying for the Confederations premier competition for clubs, the Scotiabank Concacaf Champions League. Edited February 11, 2019 by Ansem Senorpopps, johnyb, Ams1984 and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senorpopps Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Finally, an end to the arguing! Thank Vic! johnyb, Kent, Alex D and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest Cockney Rip Off Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 If they are joining for July 2019, how is the spot being awarded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenFisk'sBiggestFan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 This may be an indication that the CPL will have a split season... with the spring season winner joining the CL. Or I am just speculating. Gopherbashi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Just created the topic so we can keep this one back to CPL news Unnamed Trialist, matty and ted 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said: This may be an indication that the CPL will have a split season... with the spring season winner joining the CL. Or I am just speculating. makes sense. also on mobile, did they demote the vcup? i see canada with 2 in preliminary rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdude Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, matty said: makes sense. also on mobile, did they demote the vcup? i see canada with 2 in preliminary rounds Not at all. I think if anybody got demoted, it's the Central American leagues. matty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, matty said: makes sense. also on mobile, did they demote the vcup? i see canada with 2 in preliminary rounds The only changes are the five former Central American direct CCL qualifiers are being moved down to CONCACAF League and one CPL spot is being added to CONCACAF League. CONCACAF League will be: 18 Central American teams 3 Caribbean Club Championship runners-up 1 CPL CONCACAF Champions League will be: 4 Liga MX 4 MLS 1 Voyageurs Cup 1 Caribbean Club Champion 6 CONCACAF League qualifiers Edited February 11, 2019 by Zem johnyb, Ansem and masster 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 47 minutes ago, Blackdude said: Not at all. I think if anybody got demoted, it's the Central American leagues. 36 minutes ago, Zem said: The only changes are the five former Central American direct CCL qualifiers are being moved down to CONCACAF League and one CPL spot is being added to CONCACAF League. What a weird CONCACAF move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 If I'm Ottawa Fury... I feel dumb today... matty, zen, CDNFootballer and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Ansem said: If I'm Ottawa Fury... I feel dumb today... Nah less travel costs so they clearly avoided death lol Edited February 11, 2019 by matty Ansem, Zem and BenFisk'sBiggestFan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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